Raid Loot Droprates Tuning - February 16

[Xires]

It was 3 items per 20 people, which is 15% per person.

So 14 people for 2 items, 20 for 3 items, 27 for 4 items, etc.

I've been advocating 20% per person (1 per 5, 4 per 20) also because it just flex scales 10-30 so much simplier.

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And we have an entire mythic+ gearing system covering every single slot that goes up to the mythic item levels.

And PvP gear doesn't have a dead stat so its useful in PvE.

You have to view the whole gearing package. WoW hasn't been about tunneling raids for a long time.

Wrong. Mythic+ is NOT the same this xpac as the last two. The gear previously from +15's would be the equivalent of Heroic warforged with a mythic piece in your weekly chest. The gear that currently drops from mythic+ is 100% useless for ANYBODY in 213+ loot with the exception of the weekly vault. So no...mythic+ does NOT make up for lack of loot in raid like it used to. Hell, in Bfa you could already outgear a heroic raid by its second week because of mythic+ loot at the end of the dungeon. Doesn't work that way anymore. So heroic+ raiders do not have mythic+ to get those "extra pieces".

The reason they did what they did with loot is in bfa loot was everywhere...and they wanted loot to have some meaning once you got it. But what they forgot to do was to make the loot that did drop...interesting like it used to be. And they ended up nerfing covenants into something much MUCH weaker that what it originally was.

Loot in raid right now is just too scarce. Too many times have I come out with absolutely nothing.

[Doffen]

TBC is my favourite expansion as well From a strictly raid POV alone, gearing through TBC was quicker than it is right now, & identical once this buff goes live. SL has one craftable item slot of any use. My Warlock had crafted gear in several slots right up to T6, with the Shadoweave set & Engineering helm being so good for so long. Spellstrike saw some use before I swapped to my priest as well.

True on the Vault though, but don't forget we're missing bonus rolls from MoP/WoD as well, so it's probably somewhat similar to those. I hate the Vault anyway, & with VP/this buff I don't think it's needed anymore.

FWIW I think it's better how it is now, with gear coming from a variety of sources. I just hope we get some tier gear next raid

Think I used 3 crafted pieces whole of TBC. Crafted myself ofc! My favorite part outside of raiding and dungeon was crafting. Professions was better then, no doubt, but the power a leggo comes with should not be underestimated either.

I got poached through my crafting Met a guy in Nagrand, where I used most of my time outside raiding to farm leather, and helped him craft a piece for his alt, and it was coincidentally the leader of the guild. So crafting made ne connect with high end raiding.

Anyways, I think m+ alone makes gearing easier across the board though for the high end the change was needed. But I see people gear up faster than most other expansions except two last so I cant agree with hard it is now. It took significantly slower back then, but then again the whole raid and gear design was different so hard to compare.

To WoD for example. The only real relevant gear was from raids, dungeons were useless(the valor raid upgrade came late)

The effect m+ have on WoW and gearing is massive compared to gearing up pre legion. Its night and day.

[leorana]

I mean people still get pretty damn close to normal level raid loot for doing their covenant campaign, pushing beyond that overall iLvl with legendaries/BoEs if they so choose to do so.

Good luck getting into a notmal PUG with normal pul ilvl gear. Most will require heroic gear lvl and experience just to pug norms.

[LordVargK]

Well that's a silly equivalency. If we're comparing apples to oranges you may as well do it correctly.

From an entire 10 man raid you'd get 20 pieces of gear or, essentially, two per person. You'd need to do 10 failed keys to get the same two loots per person.

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An entire 40 minute dungeon vs one 4 minute boss fight.

The difference is, that it takes average raids weeks or months until they are able to clear the entire raid in that time. Boss progression, learing the fights, etc. is a thing. In m+ the tank is doing most of the work. If you count failed dungeons, so 40min, then calculate with wipes in raid encounters to. I'd bet that doing heroic nathria takes about 6 hours for an average progressing raid (average item level 205). The same people would do +15 in 40 min.

But beside the time investment, there's logistics and overall difficulty. There are plenty of bossfights in nathria where an individual mistake wipes the raid. In m+ those cases are rare. Also finding 10 skilled players is more work than finding 5.

[Kaver]

Now they have sorted out the raiders and mythic dungeons players hopefully they can do something for the other 90 percent of the wow population the part that actually matters.

It's so amusing you guys keep pretending you are the "90 percent" xD

The vast majority of the game are partaking in M+ and raiding to some degree. You can keep pretending that players like you are the majority but it's simply not true. WoW is build upon raiding and dungeons. It's what makes the game amazing.

[Derzorvadur]

So with the increased drop-rates, and no TF/WF in the picture..

Raiders will get decked out significantly faster again, and stop raiding until next tier.

Which to me is fine. If your guild is skilled enough to clear heroic or mythic quickly from the get go then you should be able to reach a stopping point that then allows you the freedom to play other aspects of the game or do something else entirely. If every 3-4 months all your hard work, gearing wise, is gonna be wiped out entirely by the next raid tier then people should be capable of reaching a stopping point for gearing so they can enjoy other things.

[Argorwal]

Wrong. Mythic+ is NOT the same this xpac as the last two. The gear previously from +15's would be the equivalent of Heroic warforged with a mythic piece in your weekly chest. The gear that currently drops from mythic+ is 100% useless for ANYBODY in 213+ loot with the exception of the weekly vault. So no...mythic+ does NOT make up for lack of loot in raid like it used to. Hell, in Bfa you could already outgear a heroic raid by its second week because of mythic+ loot at the end of the dungeon. Doesn't work that way anymore. So heroic+ raiders do not have mythic+ to get those "extra pieces".

The reason they did what they did with loot is in bfa loot was everywhere...and they wanted loot to have some meaning once you got it. But what they forgot to do was to make the loot that did drop...interesting like it used to be. And they ended up nerfing covenants into something much MUCH weaker that what it originally was.

Loot in raid right now is just too scarce. Too many times have I come out with absolutely nothing.

Mythic+ end of dungeon loot being better than heroic and weekly chest equal to mythic only existed in 8.3 (the last patch, season 4).

BFA seasons 1-3 EoD was = heroic and weekly chest 5 item levels under mythic
Legion EoD was 5 item levels under heroic and weekly chest 5 item levels under mythic

With titanforging.

Also, I was comparing the existence of mythic+ against past expansions prior to mythic+ existance... Mythic+ has drastically changed how fast people gear.

And I've been calling for 4 drops per 20 (1 in 5) since the reduced 3 for 20 was announced prior to SL launch.

[Derzorvadur]

It's so amusing you guys keep pretending you are the "90 percent" xD

The vast majority of the game are partaking in M+ and raiding to some degree. You can keep pretending that players like you are the majority but it's simply not true. WoW is build upon raiding and dungeons. It's what makes the game amazing.

According to the most recent numbers released by those that are tracking players through m+ it shows that player participation has fallen substantially since the first couple weeks to the point its down to last expansion levels already. I would also say you should define " majority of people are partaking in m+ " because there is a huge difference between players running 10+ dungeons every week consistently vs doing 1 +15 for their weekly vault option which is viewed as just a chore.

I would argue based on the numbers the vast majority of people that do m+ each week stop at the one clear for the weekly box vs running anything close to 10 because they enjoy the content. And I don't view that as a successful system in terms of people actually enjoying it.

[Zka]

"We give you more loot just stay subbed PLX PLX"
meanwhile in the backgroud: "fire that moron who decided to cave in for whiners and decided to remove wf/tf"
I think random sockets and leech are still in game, right? Now you'll have to farm for these and upgrade them with valor.
But at least there is no TF anymore! Have fun

[clevin]

30 ilevel below other people after a squish -> you're fine. Lol.

30 levels below a fully geared mythic raider is perfectly fine if all you do is low level keys, LFR or normal CN etc. What, you should be 230 from World Quests?

In a scaling world, and just after a botched squish so you can't even do 2 expansion old stuff.

1) who gives a fuck about old content and 2) that's not related to loot, but to how they do the old content stuff.

The mind numbing ignorance honestly hurts.

Fuck off.

[xero5141]

The difference is, that it takes average raids weeks or months until they are able to clear the entire raid in that time. Boss progression, learing the fights, etc. is a thing. In m+ the tank is doing most of the work. If you count failed dungeons, so 40min, then calculate with wipes in raid encounters to. I'd bet that doing heroic nathria takes about 6 hours for an average progressing raid (average item level 205). The same people would do +15 in 40 min.

But beside the time investment, there's logistics and overall difficulty. There are plenty of bossfights in nathria where an individual mistake wipes the raid. In m+ those cases are rare. Also finding 10 skilled players is more work than finding 5.

Well, we're comparing failed keys (for some reason) to a 10m raid (for some reason). Your 6 hours for nathria is a bit generous, anyone who is not progressing, which is the only fair assumption unless we're assuming they're also learning fights in m+, will clear it in half that time or less. That's (being generous again) 4 hours for 10 people to receive 20 pieces of loot.

For failed m+ keys, that's 6h 30m (400 minutes) assuming each dungeon fails basically right after the timer is up. Also, that's assuming no one leaves a key early or DCs making the key unfinishable unlike in raid where you can just pug a replacement. You also have to have keys available which isn't a thing. In a group of 5 you'd have to build and drop keys.

When you start applying practicality to the already strange comparison, it only looks more like m+ is harder for the amount of gear, not easier. Comparing them straight across with no logistics, m+ takes longer for less gear, period.

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Umm 10 failed M+ is 10 pieces of gear not 20, you have to time the key to get 2 pieces.

Yes, but 10 pieces for 5 people is the same as 20 pieces for 10 people, yeah?

[kiramon]

It's so amusing you guys keep pretending you are the "90 percent" xD

The vast majority of the game are partaking in M+ and raiding to some degree. You can keep pretending that players like you are the majority but it's simply not true. WoW is build upon raiding and dungeons. It's what makes the game amazing.

Wow

That's dumb. Do you think the 20 groups in group finder minus the 30 WTS groups - is 90% of the people online, too? lol.

[Wries]

Why is there only a news article about this and not the controversial post they made before explaining all loot prior to 9.0.5 launching will be un-upgradeable and worthless?

[hyphnos]

Just curious - what expansion had loot you could acquire outside of raiding or dungeons? Or are you asking for something entirely new? How would you imagine it working?

Did you even play BfA or Legion?

445 emissaries, 460 for 4 mythic dungeon weekly, 460 for heroic darkshore, ever scaling cloak and neck, 445 world bosses that gave loot probably every 2nd kill with bonus roll, random titanforges

i never raided a thing other than kiling lfr bosses once for recipes and had close to a heroic raid item level in bfa

so basically in bfa anyone who played regularly would have at least a normal raid loot ilvl (445) and playing a lot put you a lot closer to 460

[Glorious Leader]

According to the most recent numbers released by those that are tracking players through m+ it shows that player participation has fallen substantially since the first couple weeks to the point its down to last expansion levels already. I would also say you should define " majority of people are partaking in m+ " because there is a huge difference between players running 10+ dungeons every week consistently vs doing 1 +15 for their weekly vault option which is viewed as just a chore.

I would argue based on the numbers the vast majority of people that do m+ each week stop at the one clear for the weekly box vs running anything close to 10 because they enjoy the content. And I don't view that as a successful system in terms of people actually enjoying it.

I can't prove this but my suspicion is that m+ participation has dropped even more drastically than raid participation. They made m+ much less appealing this expansion. Its much harder and its much less worth it overall. Heroic raiding however is a joke and as much as people bitch about the loot your probably more likely to get something out of a raid. We can kill at a minimum 2 bosses, ( actually probably closer to 3)in the same time we would take to clear one m+ at a decent key level and we get boes from trash as well.

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It's so amusing you guys keep pretending you are the "90 percent" xD

The vast majority of the game are partaking in M+ and raiding to some degree. You can keep pretending that players like you are the majority but it's simply not true. WoW is build upon raiding and dungeons. It's what makes the game amazing.

so when people leave the game en masses can we blame dungeons and raiding as well? after all if wow is built around that...

[Subrias]

No it wasn't.

Raid loot has been objectively, numerically, much more scarce than in any of the recent expansions and it was very impactful. That's not an issue that affects mythic raids only, but also the more casual normal/heroic difficulties which most regular players are doing.

This is a great change. It's a bit late though, but hopefully it will make things feel better for people who are further in progression in their difficulty mode of choice. My guild is now on Sire so we are pretty close to be done with the raid. I guess gearing up in heroic bis will be easier at least.

Yes.. RECENT ecpansipns.. when they added titanfoeging and so much other bs randomness to loot. They took that shit out. So now once you get your item, congrats! You are done! You don't have to worry about it tiranforge rolling e extra times to be your bis... do people not understand that? The loot percentages have been proven to be pre titanforging levels (actually they were a little higher). They even have the socket items so you don't need to worry about that too much either.

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I have no issue with slowing down loot acquisition but how they did it was so unsatisfying. I’m a heroic raid/mythic+ pugger, and for about a month I’ve felt like there’s no reason to do anything but the weekly box. Sure I could spend countless hours pugging sire for a 1/30 chance at a weapon upgrade, and there were 3-4 other small upgrades in there, but it all pales in comparison to the shiny 226s in the box every Tuesday.

This leads to a deflating feeling 5 minutes into the reset when I open my box only to realize that I’m done getting meaningful upgrades for 7 days.

25 man's did not drop 5 pieces.. they dropped 3..

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Fucking finally.

Weapon tokens, specifically, just never fucking dropped. We've seen about 10 weapon tokens for a 30-player raid, total.

That's insane!

Lol? Pvp for 1 week.. get 1400 in rbgs and get 207 gear. If you don't wanna go that route? Sure I guess you can get unlucky in the vault. I have yet to not get an upgrade feom the vault and I'm ilvl 217 now.

[Eapoe]

I can't prove this but my suspicion is that m+ participation has dropped even more drastically than raid participation. They made m+ much less appealing this expansion. Its much harder and its much less worth it overall. Heroic raiding however is a joke and as much as people bitch about the loot your probably more likely to get something out of a raid. We can kill at a minimum 2 bosses, ( actually probably closer to 3)in the same time we would take to clear one m+ at a decent key level and we get boes from trash as well.

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so when people leave the game en masses can we blame dungeons and raiding as well? after all if wow is built around that...

Sure, but you’re gauranteed a max ilvl piece equal to the content cleared after 1 m+ run. For that same chance you need to clear 3 (I believe) raid bosses.
M+ also gives 2 pieces per run, for 5 people, whereas raids give 6 for 20 (going with 2 bosses). This means that m+ would give 6 pieces for the same 5 ppl over 3 runs. Granted, it takes more time, but m+ is a lot easier to not be hard stuck based on gear for max level drop chances.

That aside, I still stand by my point I made years ago when m+ Was first introduced that raids, m+, PvP, and world should all award the same ilvl gear. However, that gear is significantly reduced when used outside of their intended use. So, as an example, raid gear at 226 ilvl would drop to 200 in m+ and pvp but stay 226 in raids and world. PvP would drop to 200 in m+ and raids but stay 226 in PvP and world. So on and so forth.

[Azerate]

Yes.. RECENT ecpansipns.. when they added titanfoeging and so much other bs randomness to loot. They took that shit out. So now once you get your item, congrats! You are done! You don't have to worry about it tiranforge rolling e extra times to be your bis... do people not understand that? The loot percentages have been proven to be pre titanforging levels (actually they were a little higher). They even have the socket items so you don't need to worry about that too much either.

I was done by getting the item even when wf/tf was a thing and just treated the potential for it titanforging as a little bonus that may or may not happen. Back then I was getting the items, and sometimes getting a slightly better versions. Now I'm getting nothing. Guess which one I prefer.

I would consider relevant data the kind of data Blizzard have accessible which lead them to make the change, along with the fact that player retention is way up. As someone who could gear practically full mythic ilvl in 2 weeks of M+ dropping, I'm loving the fact I *still* have tons of upgrades pending.

Most guilds aren't dying to lack of gear, they are dying to not utilising the gear they have, or are getting killed off due to failing mechanics. Gear adds a buffer to difficulty, I have yet to hear of a single guild get stuck behind a dps/hps check that are playing mechanics properly and have reasonable effort into their char.

Ok cool, so if Blizzard's data is relevant, then let me inform you that Blizzard has just used that data and decided to increase the drop rates based on it. I guess that means you agree with the change then? All good.

[MatPandaZ]

Ok cool, so if Blizzard's data is relevant, then let me inform you that Blizzard has just used that data and decided to increase the drop rates based on it. I guess that means you agree with the change then? All good.

There is a difference between what the majority wants and what I want. I agree it is what the majority seem to want, but I personally do not like the change. It's not that hard to separate the two.

[Lei]

30 levels below a fully geared mythic raider is perfectly fine if all you do is low level keys, LFR or normal CN etc. What, you should be 230 from World Quests?

1) who gives a fuck about old content and 2) that's not related to loot, but to how they do the old content stuff.



Fuck off.

Ah, yes, give me some of that sweet sweet hyperbole with a little bit of condescending, let me rub it all over my body. IDK, maybe ilevel 210? Still 16 ilevel lower than the workhorses, and 3 ilevel lower than heroic raiders. Let's not act as if heroic raids would matter that much, but still lower.
Remember, we are after a squish.