The real toxic people in M+

[T-34]

If you're worried about wasting time, you shouldn't even have WoW installed

What exactly does "toxic" mean to you? Is anything you don't like or approve "toxic"?

If you don't want to play with "wilfully bad players", you are the one responsible for finding people who you don't consider to be that way. You are a single person among millions of players, just be a bit humble and realize your views and opinions are your own and not some universal truth that everyone else must adhere to.

As I've said, the toxicity is in how the players interact with one another. You being offended that a "bad player" is "wasting your time" is your personal issue. You belittling and insulting other players for not matching your standards is the definition of toxicity we're talking about.

No, people that think that it is their right to waste other people's time by being bad at the game and at the same time demand the right to protected from criticism are the of toxic scourge of gaming of today.


You are welcome to have your own definition of what is "toxic", many share yours, usually among the bad players that whine about being "gatekept" and "excluded" by "the minmaxing elitists".
I have mine, which is also shared by many, usually among those players that try their best and have respect for the time of their fellow gamer.

Luckily the non-toxic people have better tools today to filter out the toxic people. So the problem of toxicity is considerable smaller today as those 2 incompatible groups meet up more rarely in-game.

[Biomega]

No, people that think that it is their right to waste other people's time by being bad at the game and at the same time demand the right to protected from criticism are the of toxic scourge of gaming of today.

QFT.

The mindset of "I can behave however I want and you better tolerate that" is what's behind this problem - especially pernicious because of the double standard at play, since clearly THEY are not tolerating OTHER people behaving however they want.

Time is precious. You're spending it with 4 other people (or more, in raids), and that means you have an obligation not to waste their time. What constitutes a waste of time is negotiable, but there seems to be this presumption that other people are obligated to tolerate everything you do - and that's definitely toxic.

Don't misunderstand, though: if other people are fine with what you're doing, that's great. But it's a moral virtue, not a moral obligation for them. It's nice if they carry your underprepared character - but you are not ENTITLED to being carried while underprepared.

Obviously there's some gray areas as to how prepared you should be or could be expected to be; but the more demanding the content, the more narrow this gray area becomes. If you're doing 15+ keys and not using a flask, for example, that's pretty clearly not being prepared; but if you're doing a +7, maybe expecting everyone to flask up is a little too much. A lot of disagreement exists in that vague space, and that's fine - but there's also a lot of pretty damn clear-cut cases that people are stubbornly resisting because they feel entitled to play the game how they want to play it, not realizing that they rely on other people to do so, and the obligations that puts on them.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

Toxicity is about communication, not players skill and performance. There are other adjectives to describe what OP means, idk why some special snowflake dudes think they have to make up new definitions for such terms.

[Konteil]

I'd support this. Make that website and name the assholes.

how do we make this happen...

[Zeusy]

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...insane-reason/ THIS IS TOXIC

This really happens a lot. Had 2 people leave at end of a 15 key because they didn't think we would time and they only care about KSM. (we had like 6mins left on timer but they figured we were 7-9 mins left from finishing)

[potis]

No, people that think that it is their right to waste other people's time by being bad at the game and at the same time demand the right to protected from criticism are the of toxic scourge of gaming of today.


You are welcome to have your own definition of what is "toxic", many share yours, usually among the bad players that whine about being "gatekept" and "excluded" by "the minmaxing elitists".
I have mine, which is also shared by many, usually among those players that try their best and have respect for the time of their fellow gamer.

Luckily the non-toxic people have better tools today to filter out the toxic people. So the problem of toxicity is considerable smaller today as those 2 incompatible groups meet up more rarely in-game.

This guy knows whats up.

This is what being a toxic player is to me, i dont care how they talk, if they call my mother names or anything else.

The entitlement that because you paid 13e as everyone else, that i somehow have to accept your lack of, intelligence, game knowledge, skill, reflexes, everything is the reasoning that i am toxic and you arent, simply baffles me.

Blizzard is to blame by mixing as you said, incompatible group of players together with their retarded weekly systems trying to get the 1% to help to 99%, and it only caused the opposite.

And after they stopped those mechanics (At WoD), they fucked up even more with the freebie items, so there was no other way to tell apart who is capable, and they complain that raider.io appeared to keep the pests out

[hulkgor]

Honestly, the term "toxic" is getting absolutely overused.

Poor play? Toxic.
Called you out? Toxic.
Made a mistake? Toxic.
Low dps? Toxic.
Wrong route? Toxic.
Elitist dude? Toxic.

Give it a rest. It's the fucking internet, anonymity and no accountability brings out the worse in people. It always has, and it always will, it's not particular to WoW, to M+, to MMOC, to whatever.

If you're frequently on the internet, i would suggesting growing a thick skin, and just do your thing, trying to focus on what you enjoy.

[Kolvarg]

You are welcome to have your own definition of what is "toxic"

It's not my own definition, it's what "toxic" has always been pretty much always been used to describe.

Luckily the non-toxic people have better tools today to filter out the toxic people.

Sadly there's no good way yet to filter people with arrogant, narcissistic and condescending tendencies. Because I'd rather spend 1 hour on a failed run than waste 1 minute in a group with people like you.

The mindset of "I can behave however I want and you better tolerate that" is what's behind this problem - especially pernicious because of the double standard at play, since clearly THEY are not tolerating OTHER people behaving however they want.

Time is precious. You're spending it with 4 other people (or more, in raids), and that means you have an obligation not to waste their time. What constitutes a waste of time is negotiable, but there seems to be this presumption that other people are obligated to tolerate everything you do - and that's definitely toxic.

Because the mindset of "I like playing the game at this level, and everyone should do the same otherwise I'm entitled to be rude to them", on the other hand, is very mature. If your time is that precious, I seriously recommend switching to singleplayer games.

One mindset does not tolerate how well someone plays a game, or how they enjoy playing it. The other does not tolerate being a shitty person to others. The difference is pretty clear to me.

No one's saying you should tolerate everything others do. People are just saying that the presumption should not that everyone's supposed to be tryharding all the time and playing very well. It's a game. A MMORPG at that. A majority of people just want to play and have fun, maybe even socialize with people. Your time is precious to you, not anyone else - so it's on you to search for people who want to play the same way.

Regardless, on a general note, someone playing a game badly is not a reasonable excuse to be a shitty person. That's all.

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Honestly, the term "toxic" is getting absolutely overused.

Fine. I put forward that we shall not refer to elitists as "toxic" anymore, and instead start calling them "gaming karens".

[BetrayedOf52]

The craziest thing iv noticed is because of the way 1500 raider io players act, everyone acts that way. Unless I'm pushing my own key, playing with my friend group on the weekend or get lucky I have a helluva time getting into any 12-15 key. I'm 219 shadow priest with 1100 raider io.. I don't expect to be brought to the harder 15's or anything above until I push more myself but being actively declined from 12 and 13's from people who are 800 raider io just because it's their key and they now have the perception that you need to be significantly over what you need to be to time it.

But on the toxic side,I would say it's no worse than pug raider or arena... one bad wipe/loss people are leaving without a word. Mythic+ just stings real bad because it messes up your key, raiding and arena you just pop back into the queue. They need some sort of leaver debuff like every game has for comp that can be ruined by leavers.

[T-34]

One mindset does not tolerate how well someone plays a game, or how they enjoy playing it. The other does not tolerate being a shitty person to others. The difference is pretty clear to me.

Being wilfully bad and wasting other people's time is being shitty to other people.
And telling people that they are bad is not being shitty to them.

Fine. I put forward that we shall not refer to elitists as "toxic" anymore, and instead start calling them "gaming karens".

Agreed. And I put forward that we shall not refer to the entitled bads as "toxic" any more and instead start calling them "short hitters".

[Minikin]

The idea sounds good, but im pretty sure it would be abused a whole lot. People could add others on such lists for everything and nothing. I doesnt create a healthy m+ community neither if everyone must go by "Do this and that OR ELSE...."

As we can see from this thread, being toxic clearly means very different things for people. What would the requierments be for a Toxic.io site?

But then again, having a website and/or addon called "Toxic.io" would fit perfectly into the world of warcraft group content community.

It would definitely be abused to some extent. But at this point in time that's a cost I'm willing to accept given the current state of things in M+.

Just last night I had this imbecile run around and start tagging multiple groups in a M14 HoA. No reason why.

Raider io is a great tool and it's not perfect and we accept it.

This website would be a great tool with imperfections and I would accept it and help fund it myself if needed so my time isn't wasted.

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how do we make this happen...

I got no idea how to make websites. But id pay real life money for the maintenance of a database such as this.

[Kolvarg]

Being wilfully bad and wasting other people's time is being shitty to other people.

And how many people, do you think, are willfully being bad? There's a difference between not tryharding and "being wilfully bad". Maybe you're so obsessed with how good or bad others are, that you don't realize you aren't that much better yourself.

And telling people that they are bad is not being shitty to them.

Depends on how you do it. It is, however, in the vast majority of cases, a pointless vent that will accomplish nothing.

[Biomega]

Sadly there's no good way yet to filter people with arrogant, narcissistic and condescending tendencies. Because I'd rather spend 1 hour on a failed run than waste 1 minute in a group with people like you.

And you're free to choose groups of a different mindset - just like groups are free to choose someone with a different mindset over you.

Because the mindset of "I like playing the game at this level, and everyone should do the same otherwise I'm entitled to be rude to them", on the other hand, is very mature. If your time is that precious, I seriously recommend switching to singleplayer games.

That's not the point I'm making. My point is, you don't get to tell four other people how they spend their time. It's a negotiation - in most cases, you meet around a generally accept middle ground, and everything's fine. But you don't get to make DEMANDS of other people if you're in the minority. Find people of the same mindset, and become a majority. That's the only practicable solution here, in the sense that it adequately respects people's time investment.

One mindset does not tolerate how well someone plays a game, or how they enjoy playing it. The other does not tolerate being a shitty person to others. The difference is pretty clear to me.

It's not that simple, though. You're painting things with clear biases, i.e. one is being nice one is being shitty - but that's not how it works. How you enjoy your game is your business, but ONLY UP UNTIL IT IMPACTS MY OWN ENJOYMENT. I am not here to support your enjoyment at the cost of my own. I can CHOOSE to do so, and that might be morally virtuous (and many people do just that); but I have no moral OBLIGATION to curtail my own enjoyment in order to support yours.

And that goes both ways. Find a group that matches your play style. Going into a run and demanding or expecting four other people adjust to how YOU want to play, though - that is most definitely toxic.

No one's saying you should tolerate everything others do. People are just saying that the presumption should not that everyone's supposed to be tryharding all the time and playing very well. It's a game. A MMORPG at that. A majority of people just want to play and have fun, maybe even socialize with people. Your time is precious to you, not anyone else - so it's on you to search for people who want to play the same way.

You don't get to decide that, though. People decide that amongst themselves. There is no "right" amount of effort or seriousness - it's all up to personal preference. People can try as hard as they like, and if other people want to play differently, they can find people who are more like them. That's how it works. You don't get to demand people change as though your position was the only correct one. It's a negotiation around a multitude of attitudes, and you match together with like-minded people. That's the only way to avoid this toxicity.

[Kanadei]

We don't need to paint every uttering as malicious, some people use the language in a different way...
See, I can also play your game.

Except what you said makes no sense. Sorry if the big words confused you or something, that wasnt my point (or "game").

[Kolvarg]

And you're free to choose groups of a different mindset - just like groups are free to choose someone with a different mindset over you.

Well yes, that's what I'm saying.

That's not the point I'm making. My point is, you don't get to tell four other people how they spend their time.

I'm not telling anyone how to spend their time. I'm just saying that people "wasting your time" is not a reasonable justification for being an asshole, that's all.

If a player gets into a group that doesn't match their playstyle and approach to the game, the issue was miscomunication, naivety, or at worse being inconsiderate. Not toxicity.

It's not that simple, though. You're painting things with clear biases, i.e. one is being nice one is being shitty - but that's not how it works. How you enjoy your game is your business, but ONLY UP UNTIL IT IMPACTS MY OWN ENJOYMENT. I am not here to support your enjoyment at the cost of my own. I can CHOOSE to do so, and that might be morally virtuous (and many people do just that); but I have no moral OBLIGATION to curtail my own enjoyment in order to support yours.

Because one is a real issue that's been plaguing the game for ages, souring player's experiences and gatekeeping players from content. The other one is a conspiracy that everyone who is not as good as you is being purposefully bad, not trying or just wants to be carried, and therefore you can and should be rude to them.

I can completely respect that some people only really like trying their best and doing everything they can to maximize their chances, and want everyone in their group to do the same. That's totally fine. What I don't understand is, in the situation of you being in a group that's not as good as you hoped, or a player you consider bad being in your group, how being an asshole to them will improve the situation at all.

You don't get to decide that, though. People decide that amongst themselves. There is no "right" amount of effort or seriousness - it's all up to personal preference. People can try as hard as they like, and if other people want to play differently, they can find people who are more like them. That's how it works. You don't get to demand people change as though your position was the only correct one. It's a negotiation around a multitude of attitudes, and you match together with like-minded people. That's the only way to avoid this toxicity.

If you see any random group of people playing football in a park, or in their backyard - do you expect them to be fully equipped with the best gear they can afford? Do you expect them to train every day for it? Do you expect them to play at 100% of their ability, no excuses?

Tryharding in anything that's not a professional or competition setting is not the default. And the only reason it's so prevalent in the first place, is that the toxicity chases less than ideal players away and gatekeeps many, and spreads to even average players who become convinced everyone is supposed to tryhard otherwise it's a waste of time.

If you take the game so seriously that you consider having a slightly worse player a waste of time, I'm afraid to say you're the one who's not respecting your own time. Stop being lazy and expecting strangers to give the same value to your time as you do, and find a regular group that's on the same page as you, instead of hoping that randoms will be as good as you expect them to be.

[intenz]

Haha if I see a rogue low in health and a ranged or tank low in health, I’m prioritizing the ranged or tank every single time. If I’m worried the tank is gonna die, I will consciously decide to ignore the rogue, assume he’s dead, and move on with healing the group. Dying and taking extra damage is just what melee do. Most of the time, unless a boss is coming, group won’t even acknowledge the death or pause.

Any ranged taking as much damage as a melee is a garbage player. That simple. Why on earth would you heal the player taking avoidable damage over the player taking unavoidable damage? The tiny mind of a PvE'er I guess...

[Ange]

As someone who is always focused on utility I continue to be amazed at the number of people who insist on playing melee.

The game gets very boring, very fast from the range perspective. You see everything, you also got more time to react and usually there are even safe spots with zero movement.

The high burst/high DPS of ranged since a while, with no real cast pushback or massive amount of silence to make it a challenge, is just stupid. At some point people get borred with playing the most boring role in this game and rather switch to a melee class, that clearly requires more attention and faster reaction from the player, just to mix things up.

In the end its just about having fun. Some people choose the least amount of challenge and play a ranged and some need a bit more difficulty, even if its punished in PVE by mechanics, DPS or the heal requirements.

The biggest LOLZ is when I hear from a ranged only player that he/she is bored with the current game... its like WHAT DID YOU EXPECT BY CHOOSING THE EASIEST ROLE???

[ellieg]

The game gets very boring, very fast from the range perspective. You see everything, you also got more time to react and usually there are even safe spots with zero movement.

The high burst/high DPS of ranged since a while, with no real cast pushback or massive amount of silence to make it a challenge, is just stupid. At some point people get borred with playing the most boring role in this game and rather switch to a melee class, that clearly requires more attention and faster reaction from the player, just to mix things up.

In the end its just about having fun. Some people choose the least amount of challenge and play a ranged and some need a bit more difficulty, even if its punished in PVE by mechanics, DPS or the heal requirements.

The biggest LOLZ is when I hear from a ranged only player that he/she is bored with the current game... its like WHAT DID YOU EXPECT BY CHOOSING THE EASIEST ROLE???

I agree with this. Doing keys on my dk and its like im playing DDR avoiding everything while trying to stick to my target and make sure no priority casts are getting thru. Play moonkin and im just sitting back relaxing going thru my rotation with the rare mechanic I have to "handle " lol

[Ange]

the rare mechanic I have to "handle " lol

You either know every mob ability and know what the tank has to do to survive or you just outrange 99% of the abilitys and its hilarious stupid with a mage / druid meta in M+. There is allways a big outcry when melee heavy is even a valid choice for M+, but we are right now back to legions shitshow, just worse, since uncapped AoE is now also a range only thing, so we are way beyond LEGIONs M+ stubity in class balance.

[MrHorner]

Pugged a 14 TOP yesterday. The grp was doing fine until we get to the plataforms part.
OMG we had a DK that died almost every pull. Got knoecked back everytime. The key got literally ruined because of him.
Guess who got the loot? the DK of fking course.
I guess I will just need to be a bit more toxic from now on, and be more strict with IO because that's what the game is forcing me to do.