Flying tricked AGAIN

[Razion]

If you go back a couple of expansions they amplify your damage so you can solo old raids, I wonder would they don't let you do that from when they launch. Is it hypocrisy?

I don't think combat and travel trivialization are the same. But I don't think you do either.

I think it's especially a bit hypocritical when they also throw around those really fast ground on-use items like the fast yaks and what-not that barrel around at 400+/whatever %. Those also skip a lot of travel time and get you past a lot of grounded combat quickly, so why is flying so special when these are allowed so frequently for so many expansions - I mean hell they've been around since Mists in every expansion at this point.

And if they want us on the ground so much why isn't ground speed just increased to these levels so travel isn't so arduous and whatever holy ground experience has to be maintained can still be there? It just seems really weird that there are clear answers to this problem they even have implemented for many expansions but aren't making use of.

[DarkAmbient]

I haven't heard it by myself, but according to other fan site this podcast suggests, that another 40 renown levels will be added in 9.1. And of course at least 32 of them will have covenant chapters time-gated behind them. So what? 9.1 will be released after about 2 months since 9.0.5 and flying will also be time-gated by at least another 3 months, while there also won't be any new content with flying? Is it worth waiting and playing? I guess, no.

If they're going to lock flying behind renown, then at most we should require only enough renown for the campaign completion achievement that we already have. If they decide to bump the requirement to completion of the new campaign then they can get fucked, I won't be playing Shadowlands again.

[WowIsDead64]

If they're going to lock flying behind renown, then at most we should require only enough renown for the campaign completion achievement that we already have. If they decide to bump the requirement to completion of the new campaign then they can get fucked, I won't be playing Shadowlands again.

Well, it's their standard tactic since WOD. They say "You need to complete whole story to get flying, because if you wouldn't, you somehow wouldn't master ground content - and sky would fall on a ground in this case!!!". Problem is - half of this story is gated behind year of waiting. And we still don't have any solution for this problem - i.e. allowing flying in current content, while taking it away in new one, till it's not completed. And, you know, we even have separate locations like Argus and Korthia in new patches, that could technically solve this problem. This suggest, that requirement to "master ground content" is just formal reason to take flying away from current content.

What is the reason for this? Do Blizzard really care so much about ground obstacles? I guess, no. Because who cares about them after 1-2 months of playing this game? They're getting old and start being annoying pretty fast. No matter, what they say, but I guess, that it's still PVP, that is major reason for removal of flying. They just need to disable flying in WarMode and that's it. WarMode already has +X% rewards to make players want to switch to it. And PVE mode just should have flying. That's it.

[huth]

Reading on wowhead they are adding another 40 renown levels. So it could be another 20 weeks after the months it takes to get 9.1 to come out if you need max renown. Yikes!

No, it couldn't, because they already said it's tied to the campaign, not the Renown directly.

And 1-40 is only 16 weeks, with the campaign ending at the half-way point.

[Dhrizzle]

I don't think combat and travel trivialization are the same. But I don't think you do either.

It's a bit of an argument in extremis but the principles are similar and if you're talking about hypocrisy for making content easier when it is no longer current I don't mind bringing in similarly bad arguments.

I think it's especially a bit hypocritical when they also throw around those really fast ground on-use items like the fast yaks and what-not that barrel around at 400+/whatever %. Those also skip a lot of travel time and get you past a lot of grounded combat quickly, so why is flying so special when these are allowed so frequently for so many expansions - I mean hell they've been around since Mists in every expansion at this point.

You don't see the difference between the ability to travel over any obstacle at will and consumable items that have to be farmed that are essentially a turbo-charged sprint ability with the downside you can't stop moving while it's active?

And if they want us on the ground so much why isn't ground speed just increased to these levels so travel isn't so arduous and whatever holy ground experience has to be maintained can still be there? It just seems really weird that there are clear answers to this problem they even have implemented for many expansions but aren't making use of.

The thing is your complaints still boil down to "world content takes too long" and you see it as a problem whereas Blizzard don't think it takes too long which is why they don't look for solutions like making your mount move at ludicrous speed, have world quests complete just by moving near them or simply mail you all the rewards so you don't have to set foot outside of Oribos or whatever instanced content you enjoy. You complaining that world content has you travelling too slow and having to navigate terrain is basically the same as me complaining that raid bosses have too much health and require me to have friends.

[DarkAmbient]

The thing is your complaints still boil down to "world content takes too long" and you see it as a problem whereas Blizzard don't think it takes too long which is why they don't look for solutions like making your mount move at ludicrous speed, have world quests complete just by moving near them or simply mail you all the rewards so you don't have to set foot outside of Oribos

Why do people always come out with this stuff in response to criticism of WoW? No-one wants free shit mailed to them for no effort. People just don't want the game to feel like it's being unnecessarily obstructive when you're just trying to do your daily business.

[Sorrowseer]

I don't get why people thinking walking around with a ball and chain makes the game better somehow.

[dcc626]

Reading on wowhead they are adding another 40 renown levels. So it could be another 20 weeks after the months it takes to get 9.1 to come out if you need max renown. Yikes!

even if they gave it day 1, you would have people likeOP that would complain. We are getting flying in the original zones only. we are going to spend 90% of our time in the maw and new zone, which will never have flying.

like every other xpac. like they told us before Shadowlands came out.

id ask for the OP to reeply, buit it looks like hes banned, big shocker.

[SirCowdog]

Why do people always come out with this stuff in response to criticism of WoW? No-one wants free shit mailed to them for no effort. People just don't want the game to feel like it's being unnecessarily obstructive when you're just trying to do your daily business.

Because he knows he doesn't have any real arguments. The only way his house-of-cards style of making points holds up is if he ignores everything in favor of arguing against something that no one is actually talking about. He's got a history of this.

[schwank05]

Cant wait for BC where we can go back to once you have enough gold you can fly Everywhere.

[baskev]

Sorry Baskev, it's probably due to there being a lack of tone with the written format. I wasn't necessarily disagree with you, but mostly just re-iterating points for clarity.

I think there are LOTS of things in WoW right now that are too formulaic. Leveling. No-flying. The faction split. etc. Things which should be looked at by Blizzard and players alike, and ask the question: Are we really doing this because it's good? Or just because it's been that way forever?

Because making a better overall open world is going to require what you said: Something that isn't an easy 1-2 easy answer. It's going to require overhauls or re-imagining of fundamental systems. But there are some intermediary quick-fixes that could help mitigate things while that gets under way.

• Locking flight while War Mode is on would help.
• Making zones with more verticality, like Stormpeaks, has already been proven to work with older tech and code than Blizzard is using now.
• Having some zones at launch allow flying, while others don't would help assuage the irritation players have with losing flight. (I.E.: The Maw needs a counterpart with flight)

All Blizzard has to do in the short term is to stop being such stubborn hateful a-holes in regards to flight. It's obvious that many players want it, and Blizzard should be trying to please their players rather than take the high-road of "muh arts!" in a weak excuse to pad engagement.

Yeah, written stuff sometimes does that sorry if i mistaken it.

Your list makes sense to counter some of the points indeed.

But i do not think they are being stubborn. Because they did change how it worked. If they where stubborn it would still be patch x.2 and many reps and achievements. Now its ( with current info) patch x.1 and renow level xx and you get it.

And do not think content being flown over is a weak excuse. If you make something and people ignore it , its pointless to make in the first place.

So while i agree with most points that it can and should be changed. I think the flying over content is a good...not excuse but, reason why its not done right now.
And i disagree with the notion that a lot of people seem to have that blizzard is stubborn, tricking people etc etc. They did change it. So they ARE listining to you all.

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Back when no-flying was first introduced Blizz explained they had looked at ways to make flying more interesting but early experiments either fell flat or were disliked (flying PvP scrapped in WotLK, Occulus the last popular dungeon) and Vash'jir showed that the game really didn't handle full 3D movement and combat very well. Ultimately they decided trying to improve flying was too much work just to take the game so far from its roots as a fantasy adventure RPG.

Yup 1 of my points. Not everyone likes everything they try. people want more flying content. This might happen. And they are trying. So there is no tricking involved.

Personal note...i loved vash'jir. still level my alts thruh it.

[Dhrizzle]

Why do people always come out with this stuff in response to criticism of WoW? No-one wants free shit mailed to them for no effort. People just don't want the game to feel like it's being unnecessarily obstructive when you're just trying to do your daily business.

Because it's the sliding scale, ultimately the complaint is that world content is taking too long for people who don't really like world content so the extreme solution would be to just hand over the loot and remove the unnecessary obstruction of the open world. And yeah I get that it's taking the point to an absurd extreme, but really how quick and easy do people need world content to be?

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I don't get why people thinking walking around with a ball and chain makes the game better somehow.

What ball and chain?

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Yup 1 of my points. Not everyone likes everything they try. people want more flying content. This might happen. And they are trying. So there is no tricking involved.

Personal note...i loved vash'jir. still level my alts thruh it.

My take on Vash'jir is it had awful combat, tiresome quests (especially the start going from cave to cave) but absolutely amazing exploration.

[WowIsDead64]

Because it's the sliding scale, ultimately the complaint is that world content is taking too long for people who don't really like world content so the extreme solution would be to just hand over the loot and remove the unnecessary obstruction of the open world. And yeah I get that it's taking the point to an absurd extreme, but really how quick and easy do people need world content to be?

Term "world content" also has "sliding scale" here. If for you world content is ganking, jump puzzles, navigation puzzles and searching for treasures, then yeah, such world content isn't for me. But at the same time questing - IS MY FAVORITE KIND OF CONTENT.

[Dhrizzle]

Term "world content" also has "sliding scale" here. If for you world content is ganking, jump puzzles, navigation puzzles and searching for treasures, then yeah, such world content isn't for me. But at the same time questing - IS MY FAVORITE KIND OF CONTENT.

I'd hardly call using a map to follow a road a navigation "puzzle" but it is certainly part of questing and arguably one of the defining things about an open world game.

[WowIsDead64]

I'd hardly call using a map to follow a road a navigation "puzzle" but it is certainly part of questing and arguably one of the defining things about an open world game.

If everything would be so easy, we wouldn't complain. But locations like Revendreth say hello.

[rrayy]

What did you expect from Mr MAU Ion Hazzikoastas?

People really need to stop posting stuff like this because it shows the person saying it have no idea how MAU's work. MAU's do not care how much you log in during the month. They only cared that you logged in at all.

[Dhrizzle]

If everything would be so easy, we wouldn't complain. But locations like Revendreth say hello.

Not gonna lie I used to struggle a little bit on Revendreth until someone in this thread pointed out the lifts are very clearly and obviously marked on the map.

[cparle87]

Because "designed around ground mounts" - is when you can get everywhere on your ground mount without problems, like it was back in Vanilla. When it's "we put wall of elites here just for lulz" or "we put 3D maze here, so it's Vashj'ir 2.0 navigation hell" - it's not "designed around ground mounts". Size of location doesn't matter here. It's how it's designed.

Completely forgetting about the NUMEROUS outdoor elite areas that classic and BC had. I honestly cannot believe you tried the "wall of elites" excuse. Guess you were hoping no one read who actually played back then. Forgetting about the walls of elites that made up practically mini dungeons before you could even get to instances. Many of them no-mount areas also like to get to BRD and BFD. And the literal maze to get to RFK and of course Jintha'alor. Your jade colored glasses are showing. Nothing has changed about Blizzard's zone building since day one.

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If everything would be so easy, we wouldn't complain. But locations like Revendreth say hello.

If you have trouble navigating Revendreth make sure you don't go into a shopping mall without an escort, you'll get lost. Apparently reading a map to see where the escalator to the next floor up or down is too much for you.

[WowIsDead64]

Multi-level 3D maze with high density of mobs everywhere isn't bad, yeah. And it isn't only badly designed location. Almost all Legion locations suffered from Vashj'ir syndrome, i.e. required 3D navigation, while this game isn't designed for 3D navigation. Because our map is unfortunately 2D, not 3D. Yeah, that situations, when you didn't know, at what height level your goal was and how you was supposed to get there. BFA had such locations too. Mostly due to forced-PVP crap, that was theme of this xpack. There were other faction's hubs, that were blocking your routes and forced you to search for alternatives. That's, what I call "navigation puzzles". Are they so necessary in this game? Do they bring some interesting gameplay or something? I guess, no. They just waste your time.

[Stardrift]

The amount of people that "quit" and, actually quit, because of no flying is fucking insane. The game is better without you.