Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[Hellobolis]

SSC had it as well.

that 3 boss encounter in crucible of storms had it aswell, and all i remember is a lot of ranged people asking "how do i move the boss?" and just general dissatisfaction when they had to do it. (and it often being a wipe if the ranged tank died cause ranged couldn't taunt it to reset aggro)

[Teriz]

let's make it a lot more real: take a boss like huntsman 2nd dog, where fairly simple add movement is required. basically you gotto move the add between point A B and C. how would this work?

targeting circles like current pets? you said yourself this is cumbersome.
switching control between the player character and the pet when you press a button? could be interesting but complicated if both have to move at the same time.
AI does it for you? limits your boss strategy to the AI script, meaning people playing this char will be hard benched because of it on bosses where this matters.
crazy shit like player moves with asdf and pet moves with arrow keys? only gods can play it effectively.

then step it up and think about how you would deal with a boss with more involved movement requirements like sire denatrius.



yes there is a lot to ponder about when the games combat system isn't built with this in mind :P

Very true. I think the key to solving this conundrum is almost completely based around movement and positioning. I do think that a key option is switching control between the pet and the player character, and I think a key to getting this to work would be to come up with some innovative and intuitive methods of movement. For example, you switch control of the characters having the AI be the ranged tank and you need to move the threat to point A. Then have the ability to instantly port your companion to your location.

[Hellobolis]

like Rexxar in HotS.

this concept works very well in top down perspective, not so much in first/third person view. and wow aint that good at turning the perspective to top down either so "commander classes" in general won't work that well without major overhauls to the camera.

[HateTrain]

Is this not covered in that god awful Tinker/New class thread that is now completely derailed into a Tinker thread/Necromancer thread that is hijacked into another Tinker thread/Bard thread that has been derailed into another Tinker thread?

JFC, it is unintended hilarity that I can quote myself and it still be completely relevant. I guess we can add the "Turret" thread to the above list.

[Teriz]

I always thought it would be cool to turn Survival into a ranged tank spec, like Rexxar in HotS. It would be fun to control a giant animal using defensive abilities and holding aggro, while also running around with a bow. They could have a mechanic where you sometimes need to mount your pet, and sometimes split up. Maybe you're tankier when you're fighting atop your pet, but disengaging allows you to cast traps and stay alive when your pet dies. The better you time the disengage, the quicker you can revive the pet. There's a lot of amazing gameplay potential here.

Yeah, Rexxar from HotS is definitely one of the models I was thinking of when I was considering this topic. I really love playing that character. One of the few characters I paid real money for in HotS.

[roboscorcher]

this concept works very well in top down perspective, not so much in first/third person view. and wow aint that good at turning the perspective to top down either so "commander classes" in general won't work that well without major overhauls to the camera.

True, and tank-Survival would have to work within the 3rd-person camera. Basically, it would work like this:
- when mounting your pet, you'd control it as if your were the pet. Full movement.
- when disengaged, you'd control yourself and the pet separately, just like a normal hunter. You'd lose some pet abilities, but gain other abilities (like traps and ranged shots).

Disengaging would always be a risky play. You would only want to do it when your pet is safe, near death, or you really need to set up some traps.

[erifwodahs]

How do you make your AI to LoS on a fight like Shriekwing while dodging the circles at the same time while the controller himself has to do it too?
I guess it could be done for very easy content, but if a fight require precise movement by the tank and raid at the same tank, I can't imagine it being possible, especially if you have to dodge mechanics while moving boss at the same and directions of movement would be conflicting. Tank and spank - sure, it's like BM on steroids.
I can see how using CDs can be done by the player but movement... Unless you make it full auto-mode but that's just bot doing mechanics for you.

[Teriz]

How do you make your AI to LoS on a fight like Shriekwing while dodging the circles at the same time while the controller himself has to do it too?
I guess it could be done for very easy content, but if a fight require precise movement by the tank and raid at the same tank, I can't imagine it being possible, especially if you have to dodge mechanics while moving boss at the same and directions of movement would be conflicting. Tank and spank - sure, it's like BM on steroids.
I can see how using CDs can be done by the player but movement... Unless you make it full auto-mode but that's just bot doing mechanics for you.

Would it be possible for the ranged tank to occassionally "merge" with the pet for precise movement (like the mounting example given by @roboscorcher) and then disengage from the pet to return to ranged tanking?

[Diaphin]

I have. You're making it seem like we're designing a warp drive for a starship instead of a class for a videogame.

No you have not. Even in every single new class discussion which you turn into tinker threads by harassing everyone who wants something else, you have proven over and over again that you have not the slightest clue of how this game works and how class design looks like. Your idea is stupid.

[Jujudrood]

How do you make your AI to LoS on a fight like Shriekwing while dodging the circles at the same time while the controller himself has to do it too?
I guess it could be done for very easy content, but if a fight require precise movement by the tank and raid at the same tank, I can't imagine it being possible, especially if you have to dodge mechanics while moving boss at the same and directions of movement would be conflicting. Tank and spank - sure, it's like BM on steroids.
I can see how using CDs can be done by the player but movement... Unless you make it full auto-mode but that's just bot doing mechanics for you.

Not just this, but what about interrupts/stuns? What about repositioning like on Sludgefist when a rock zone forms in the way? A tank going one way and the other going a different can spell doom for an unsuspecting melee who finds themselves closest to active tank.

It's just not really all that feasible because it goes one of two ways:
1) It's basically BM on steroids, where you have a fully capable pet tank that can handle current raids and a player-controlled avatar doing competitive (ish) DPS, making this the "go-to" combo since you effectively get two free DPS slots without increasing party size
2) The pet is directly controlled by the player in a "merge/mount" scenario, where the player is hitting all defensives, generating threat, and basically just being a melee tank, but the pet absorbing the damage.

At the end of the day, the boss needs to punch something, so sure, patchwerk style can work (assuming it doesn't stray too far from the other tank for "reasons"), but in every fight in Nathria, for example, an AI/partial player controlled pet tank would be an absolute nightmare, especially if the DPS person dies to a mechanic since they were trying to micromanage the tank pet and that tank pet just goes *poof*.

[Oneirophobia]

ofcourse its technically possible. (albeit lets be honest, most of it will be scripted not actual AI)

but you run into this simple problem:
-if the AI can do mechanics and it just as tanky as a player character, why bring a player character.
-if the AI can do mechanics but is not as tanky as a player character, why bring the AI to difficult content.

...Uh, what? I'm sure we'd all love to leave the beast master at home and just invite his pets but unfortunately you can't separate the AI from the player. They're a package deal. These points don't make any sense at all.

[Teriz]

Not just this, but what about interrupts/stuns? What about repositioning like on Sludgefist when a rock zone forms in the way? A tank going one way and the other going a different can spell doom for an unsuspecting melee who finds themselves closest to active tank.

It's just not really all that feasible because it goes one of two ways:
1) It's basically BM on steroids, where you have a fully capable pet tank that can handle current raids and a player-controlled avatar doing competitive (ish) DPS, making this the "go-to" combo since you effectively get two free DPS slots without increasing party size
2) The pet is directly controlled by the player in a "merge/mount" scenario, where the player is hitting all defensives, generating threat, and basically just being a melee tank, but the pet absorbing the damage.

At the end of the day, the boss needs to punch something, so sure, patchwerk style can work (assuming it doesn't stray too far from the other tank for "reasons"), but in every fight in Nathria, for example, an AI/partial player controlled pet tank would be an absolute nightmare, especially if the DPS person dies to a mechanic since they were trying to micromanage the tank pet and that tank pet just goes *poof*.

In situations like that, why couldn't the ranged tank fight in melee range? For example, you're fighting at range, a mechanic comes up that requires precise movement, and the ranged tank immediately "merges" with the pet and does the necessary movements, continuing to fight the boss. When things settle down, the ranged tank can then project itself back out to range again?

[Andeus]

You are all describing either hunter pets or warlock pets. Someone mentioned transferring life to your pet and/so that you share damage, literally what Soul Link was with Health Funnel being a channeled spell back in the day. Only now the damage would go both ways.

*With the advanced AI*. What are we talking about? Last night on Necrotic Wake, 3rd boss platform: Our BM Hunter was getting the usual "No path found" for his pet to attack the mobs. On a flat platform. And this is not new, any Hunter will tell you this has been the case in many places/areas in every expansion.
It's not always just a matter of AI, it's also a matter of in-game geometry.

I don't know what you've been tanking but good positioning and movement is also part of the skillset and also part of the fun of being a good tank. And the ideas in here pretty much take out both out of the equation. It feels more like you want to DPS with a permanent Misdirect on your pet while taking a tank spot, than actually thinking a good design for a tank.

True, and tank-Survival would have to work within the 3rd-person camera. Basically, it would work like this:
- when mounting your pet, you'd control it as if your were the pet. Full movement.
- when disengaged, you'd control yourself and the pet separately, just like a normal hunter. You'd lose some pet abilities, but gain other abilities (like traps and ranged shots).

Disengaging would always be a risky play. You would only want to do it when your pet is safe, near death, or you really need to set up some traps.

So why not just give Eyes of the Beast full control of the pet and it's abilities + 300% threat and just call it a day? Go into EotB, cast abilities/control pet, go out of it you're back on your hunter and the pet continues it's usual autocast rotation.

[Snufflupagus]

So basically you want to play a DPS class and have an AI tank for you.

So far, no.

[Teriz]

So basically you want to play a DPS class and have an AI tank for you.

So far, no.

No, I want to play a tank at range and have the AI control the boss' movement so that I can maintain range.

[datguy81]

No, I want to play a tank at range and have the AI control the boss' movement so that I can maintain range.

SW mmo has a ranged tanking with their Trooper and Bounty Hunter classes. Try that game than

[Teriz]

SW mmo has a ranged tanking with their Trooper and Bounty Hunter classes. Try that game than

Those are Faux ranged tanks. Their abilities are melee, they're just using ranged weapons.

A possibility to be sure, but not what we're talking about here, which is true ranged tanking.

[datguy81]

Those are Faux ranged tanks. Their abilities are melee, they're just using ranged weapons.

A possibility to be sure, but not what we're talking about here, which is true ranged tanking.

Odd seems like 9 years ago you brought this up and agreed those classes can tank

LoL! There are melee enemies and bosses in SW:TOR. Again, the Trooper and Bounty Hunter simply have the abilities to tank.

Blizzard could do the same thing with Hunters (or even Warlocks). They just choose not to.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...6-Ranged-tanks

[Jujudrood]

In situations like that, why couldn't the ranged tank fight in melee range? For example, you're fighting at range, a mechanic comes up that requires precise movement, and the ranged tank immediately "merges" with the pet and does the necessary movements, continuing to fight the boss. When things settle down, the ranged tank can then project itself back out to range again?

That's a lot of empty movement for one player. Especially since most of the fights will require this every x seconds, you would be better served just staying in melee then, right? So just, be a melee tank with a pet in this case?

[Teriz]

Odd seems like 9 years ago you brought this up and agreed those classes can tank

A lot can change in 9 years....

- - - Updated - - -

That's a lot of empty movement for one player. Especially since most of the fights will require this every x seconds, you would be better served just staying in melee then, right? So just, be a melee tank with a pet in this case?

It would be a single button press. Like a teleport or a leap, and then viola! You're now performing the complicated movements, and blasting the boss in the face. When that particular mechanic ends, you can then project yourself back out to range again. Perhaps they should also be some sort of bonus for fighting at range as opposed to being up close.