Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[huth]

Then how about offering some suggestions instead of sitting in this thread complaining about how this won't work?

The suggestion is inherent to the criticism. Learn how tanking actually works before trying to make any suggestions on it. Your current ideas are all unsalvageable because they fail to consider basic concerns of tanking.

[Teriz]

The suggestion is inherent to the criticism. Learn how tanking actually works before trying to make any suggestions on it. Your current ideas are all unsalvageable because they fail to consider basic concerns of tanking.

And here we go again...

What "basic concerns of tanking" am I not considering?

[Super Kami Dende]

Sounds bad. Really bad.

[Tradu]

False. Like I said, the ranged tank would conform to the majority of tanks, which is melee. Thus you wouldn't need to fundamentally change how raids or dungeons are designed, merely tweak them so that the ranged tank is competitive.



No, because saying something is clunky without providing evidence to back it up isn't a fact, it's merely an opinion. I've discussed multiple times how you can streamline movement in order to not make it clunky. Clearly you ignored that.




And then we return to your standard method of argumentation; Sticking your head in the sand and simply saying it won't work without providing objective reasons for that to be the case.

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Except the design isn't really all that different than existing tanks. Further, just because a new class or spec is OP doesn't mean that people are "forced" to play it.

Your post is yet another example of the so-called "reasoning" that I called hilarious. Your post isn't objective reasons, it's simply ignorance and hyperbole.

Tweaking them would require a fundamental redesign because of the limitations/advantages of said ranged tank.

You can't "streamline movement" of 2 units at the same time in WoW. Pet commands in WoW are atrocious, the controls for the original Fury of Elune were awful, your idea of "projecting a barrier" is the same thing as those. Having to go into melee to do correct positioning is literally part of your own suggestion, and clearly shows that your idea is fundamentally flawed, because it turns it into just another melee tank.

You've got to be kidding. This entire thread is full of reasons why your insane idea won't work, you just choose to ignore them.

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And here we go again...

What "basic concerns of tanking" am I not considering?

Positioning mobs/avoiding mechanics. Your solution is literally to turn your "ranged tank" into a melee tank.

[Ielenia]

Not if the PC is blasting away at the boss through the field from 30-40 yds away.

It doesn't matter if it's 40 yards, 20 yards or just 5 yards. Having this "field" or "turret" or whatever you want to call it being in melee, holding aggro and taking damage from the boss still negates the whole "ranged" thing if damage it takes is then transferred to you.

And also:

Dude. Your examples either completely negate the purpose of tanking (having a pet tank for you, with an AI doing all the movement and shit) or make the class needlessly overcomplicated for basically zero benefit (having you, as a player, need to focus on moving and positioning not only yourself, but your pet as well, since you two take the same damage).

All your examples so far only showcase how this idea is, frankly, impractical at best, absurd at worst.

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Would be cool, something like Zero-class in Maplestory.
You are two characters, who you swap for combos.

We could have one being ranged and one melee.
When you have to move, you could swap and the ranged AI would do passive dmg and give a speedbuff.
When playing AS ranged, you could be a bard-like char with focus on buffs, absorbs etc
And ofc shared healthpool and shared debuffs/cc

So what happens when everyone has to move at the same time, like in the Sire Denathrius fight? Or Sludgefist? Or Shriekwing?

[Teriz]

Tweaking them would require a fundamental redesign because of the limitations/advantages of said ranged tank.

Except old raid content is tweaked constantly, and again, any new content would be designed with the new tank spec in mind.

You can't "streamline movement" of 2 units at the same time in WoW. Pet commands in WoW are atrocious, the controls for the original Fury of Elune were awful, your idea of "projecting a barrier" is the same thing as those. Having to go into melee to do correct positioning is literally part of your own suggestion, and clearly shows that your idea is fundamentally flawed, because it turns it into just another melee tank.

You streamline movement by making it easier to move. Also who said anything about using pet commands? The barrier isn't really a pet, and it's movement commands would be standard abilities.

You've got to be kidding. This entire thread is full of reasons why your insane idea won't work, you just choose to ignore them.

Reasons like you gave above? Your "reasons" which are either grossly incorrect, or completely misrepresenting my concept. Like I said, hilarious.

Positioning mobs/avoiding mechanics. Your solution is literally to turn your "ranged tank" into a melee tank.

So you're saying a threat field barrier wouldn't position mobs? You're saying merging the PC with said field and being able to move around wouldn't allow the tank to move/avoid mechanics?

It would turn the tank into a faux ranged tank for that period. When that period is over, it can return to true ranged.

[Ielenia]

I’ve largely moved away from the idea of AI doing most of the work. I think a ranged tank would have to be extremely mobile, while using a variety of tactics to keep the boss out of melee.

In other words, the boss will be just running all over the place to reach the "ranged" tank who just keeps running away, forcing melee to be on the move 90% of the time and therefore negatively affecting their DPS when they would be much more effective attacking a stationary boss? A DH would not have time to use Eye Beam, for example, before the boss moves out of range.

I think what a lot of folks forget is that if Blizzard designed a ranged tank, they would design future raids with that tank in mind.

And yet you can't demonstrate how those fights would have to be designed, to make them fit both ranged AND melee tanking. Not to mention that Blizzard would have to redo many of the existing fights.

[Teriz]

It doesn't matter if it's 40 yards, 20 yards or just 5 yards. Having this "field" or "turret" or whatever you want to call it being in melee, holding aggro and taking damage from the boss still negates the whole "ranged" thing if damage it takes is then transferred to you.

So is demonology melee because their pet fights in melee, and shares damage with its pet?

And also:

Read the new OP. We're no longer talking about AI (and haven't been talking about AI for several posts).

So what happens when everyone has to move at the same time, like in the Sire Denathrius fight? Or Sludgefist? Or Shriekwing?

You merge with the barrier and move.

[Maljinwo]

I never said I had examples. I'm simply saying that is what would be required.

The example you gave was Rexxar from Heroes of the Storm:

Maybe. Again, along the lines of Rexxar in HotS.

And unless Rexxar's gameplay has changed significantly since I stopped playing, his "tanking" consists on sending misha by clicking either an enemy or a point in the map with his D ability or Charge in a line using their W. And if she takes damage, you use Mend Pet
Otherwise, Misha just attacks whatever it's closer if Rexxar is in combat
And that's okay because of the type of gameplay that HotS has (and the isometric camera angle) allows you to dodge attacks by clicking on the map and move on since that's how all other characters move. By clicking

In WoW, Rexxar's abilities are basically a Beast Mastery Hunter. You send your pet in, deals damage and hell, you can even tell them where to move with the Go To command.
Imagine if your pet was affected by AoE in a PVE encounter. You'd have to constantly move it out of there by clicking on the screen where to position the Pet. Not taking into account positioning, tactics, aggro swapping. Seems too complex.

You said there could be a way to take direct control of your pet to do that and then return to your ranged character to keep dealing damage
Hunters already have Eyes of the Beast, so let's take that as an example.
Sure, it's not designed for tanking. So imagine that by using Eyes of the Beast, your pet gains damage reduction or any other buffs to help tanking.
But at that point you are already melee Tanking, so why don't just pick any other Tank class that can focus on that instead of juggling two roles.

Well, maybe you'll say that you can have a Tank and a DPS at the same time with that. And you know what, that sounds great.
But when you are directly controlling your pet or telling them to move to a different point, aren't you losing DPS? Or if you focus on DPS and don't control the minion, wouldn't it be likely that you fail to avoid a Tank mechanic

That leads me to the second point:

Players would play this tank just because it's a new way to tank, regardless of how complex it is. Complexity is not a barrier for a good chunk of the player base.

Sure, most people play the new thing for novelty and to try something new in game. That doesn't mean it's good or it will last.
Look at allied races. How many Highmountain Tauren do you usually see
Or if we switch to classes, Monks are one of the newer classes, yet they are one of the most underutilized.

There's also a good chunk of the playerbase that would prefer a not so complex tank when they can achieve the same with 2 Demon Hunters or any other Tank


I don't think it's impossible to have a Ranged Tank. But the difficulty on implementing it and playing correctly doesn't seem attractive enough to make its way into the game.

[Teriz]

In other words, the boss will be just running all over the place to reach the "ranged" tank who just keeps running away, forcing melee to be on the move 90% of the time and therefore negatively affecting their DPS when they would be much more effective attacking a stationary boss? A DH would not have time to use Eye Beam, for example, before the boss moves out of range.

Nope. The barrier would be the threat target for the boss, not the PC. The PC can make the barrier follow their movement, or make it stationary.

And yet you can't demonstrate how those fights would have to be designed, to make them fit both ranged AND melee tanking. Not to mention that Blizzard would have to redo many of the existing fights.

Again, the ranged tank would be designed more along the lines of how current melee tanks fight (hence the barrier in melee range). Thus, all you will need to do is tweak older encounters to make it fair for the ranged tank, and design new encounters with the ranged tank in mind.

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The example you gave was Rexxar from Heroes of the Storm:



And unless Rexxar's gameplay has changed significantly since I stopped playing, his "tanking" consists on sending misha by clicking either an enemy or a point in the map with his D ability or Charge in a line using their W. And if she takes damage, you use Mend Pet
Otherwise, Misha just attacks whatever it's closer if Rexxar is in combat
And that's okay because of the type of gameplay that HotS has (and the isometric camera angle) allows you to dodge attacks by clicking on the map and move on since that's how all other characters move. By clicking

In WoW, Rexxar's abilities are basically a Beast Mastery Hunter. You send your pet in, deals damage and hell, you can even tell them where to move with the Go To command.
Imagine if your pet was affected by AoE in a PVE encounter. You'd have to constantly move it out of there by clicking on the screen where to position the Pet. Not taking into account positioning, tactics, aggro swapping. Seems too complex.

You said there could be a way to take direct control of your pet to do that and then return to your ranged character to keep dealing damage
Hunters already have Eyes of the Beast, so let's take that as an example.
Sure, it's not designed for tanking. So imagine that by using Eyes of the Beast, your pet gains damage reduction or any other buffs to help tanking.
But at that point you are already melee Tanking, so why don't just pick any other Tank class that can focus on that instead of juggling two roles.

Well, maybe you'll say that you can have a Tank and a DPS at the same time with that. And you know what, that sounds great.
But when you are directly controlling your pet or telling them to move to a different point, aren't you losing DPS? Or if you focus on DPS and don't control the minion, wouldn't it be likely that you fail to avoid a Tank mechanic

That leads me to the second point:



Sure, most people play the new thing for novelty and to try something new in game. That doesn't mean it's good or it will last.
Look at allied races. How many Highmountain Tauren do you usually see
Or if we switch to classes, Monks are one of the newer classes, yet they are one of the most underutilized.

There's also a good chunk of the playerbase that would prefer a not so complex tank when they can achieve the same with 2 Demon Hunters or any other Tank


I don't think it's impossible to have a Ranged Tank. But the difficulty on implementing it and playing correctly doesn't seem attractive enough to make its way into the game.

I haven't gotten to the Rexxar style ranged tanking yet, since I'm currently talking about the tech-based class. However, with the bringing together of the ranged PC and the "pet", in the case of the Rexxar-style, I was considering allowing the character to mount their pet for movement fights. I'll look into some of the other concerns you brought up when I get to the Rexxar-style concept.

[Alanar]

Possibly, but that could make gameplay too cumbersome. Perhaps some basic level of control, like summoning and unsummoning, and perhaps certain attacks/spells could be controlled by the player?

Yea, like others have said, this will not work due to the fact it will become like a hunter or warlock that tanks with their pet. Controling the pet for example moving out of fire, how do you see that work without some aoe immmunity. Or pet management in general.

So far it looks like a very confusing and annoying way to tank and also not very unique or engaging.

[Tradu]

Except old raid content is tweaked constantly, and again, any new content would be designed with the new tank spec in mind.



You streamline movement by making it easier to move. Also who said anything about using pet commands? The barrier isn't really a pet, and it's movement commands would be standard abilities.



Reasons like you gave above? Your "reasons" which are either grossly incorrect, or completely misrepresenting my concept. Like I said, hilarious.



So you're saying a threat field barrier wouldn't position mobs? You're saying merging the PC with said field and being able to move around wouldn't allow the tank to move/avoid mechanics?

It would turn the tank into a faux ranged tank for that period. When that period is over, it can return to true ranged.

There's no difference. See initial Fury of Elune. You're still giving commands to a unit that isn't your player character.

And no, you'd just play the ranged tank as melee tank the entire time because it's better in practice.

[Thestrawman]

OP, while I wait for you to complete the challenge I set out for you to do, one quick question. What's to keep this ranged tank from just standing on the boss the whole time?

[Maljinwo]

Again, the ranged tank would be designed more along the lines of how current melee tanks fight (hence the barrier in melee range). Thus, all you will need to do is tweak older encounters to make it fair for the ranged tank, and design new encounters with the ranged tank in mind.

Considering Blizzard wouldn't bring back a single ability in the past because "It would cost development time", I can't imagine them going back or forth to modify how the entire aggro mechanic works.

I haven't gotten to the Rexxar style ranged tanking yet, since I'm currently talking about the tech-based class. .

Oh man, I'd love a tech-based class. Hopefully Tauren and Trolls get a Techslayer class

[Niwes]

Concept 1: Technician: A technology-based spec that uses shields and ranged weaponry

The premise is a tank spec that uses guns and energy shields. The "pet" is the energy shield. The PC projects the field in front of them like Sigma from Overwatch's shields. The field emits threat, and increases damage the PC does to the enemy when the PC shoots through the field. In return, when the boss hits the field, there is feedback and the PC takes damage.

Movement: The PC can have the field follow their lateral movements, can have the field remain stationary, can teleport to the field's location and taking its threat level, and project the field forward as they teleport backwards. I'd be open to the possibility of the tank perhaps being able to project shields in other directions other than forward, or perhaps being able to move an existing shield to a new location.

The Tank "pet" would deal no damage, since it's just a barrier.
Heavy movement is mitigated by the PC teleporting to the barrier's location and assuming it's threat.
The tank pet wouldn't be another character to heal since it's just a forcefield.
You never need to directly control the field.

I think Blizzard could actually accomplish a new style of tanking that has been desired by the userbase (who are a little tired of the standard tank and spank melee) but deemed generally impossible due to existing boss mechanics. Imagine a tank who can actually fight with a bow, a gun, or be a spellcaster? That's something to consider.

Concept 2: Dragoon: A mail armored "knight" that uses a bow/Xbow/rifle and can tame dragons. (coming soon)

will not happen. reason: way too much effort and investment for too less gain, for Blizzards actual WoW „milk the cow“ mode

[Speedlance]

But why do we need a ranged tank ?

[Makabreska]

But why do we need a ranged tank ?

We don't. Dudes entire reasoning is based on "cuz its unique". Unfortunately being unique doesn't automatically make something good, or even playable.

[Teriz]

Yea, like others have said, this will not work due to the fact it will become like a hunter or warlock that tanks with their pet. Controling the pet for example moving out of fire, how do you see that work without some aoe immmunity.

So far it looks like a very confusing and annoying way to tank and also not very unique or engaging.

What if I told you that you only needed 4 buttons?

Button 1: Summon/Unsummon barrier. Hold button to move barrier forward. Once barrier is established, press again to cancel.
Button 2: Tracking (toggle): Barrier will follow the lateral movements of the PC. Untoggle tracking and the barrier will remain stationary.
Button 3: Merge: PC teleports to barriers location, merging with it. Merge becomes Separation. Separation will re-establish the barrier and the PC will be ported behind it.
Button 4: Locus: Move an established barrier to a specified location.

You don't have to worry about the pet being in the fire, because it doesn't "die". It'd merely transfer the damage to you. If it's too much damage, then you're going to want to hit merge and separate, or tracking and move the barrier laterally.

[ek0zu]

Imo pet based range tanking is not true ranged tanking. What i would say true ranged talking is, you are a caster and you lock down the boss or mob from afar to hit only you and no-one else. Shadow priest was quite tanky back in the days and ofc the infamous warlock tanking in Black Temple. These would be my inspirations. However, it would be surely a nightmare to balance for pvp but it could be quite a unique and memorable playstyle.

[Teriz]

OP, while I wait for you to complete the challenge I set out for you to do, one quick question. What's to keep this ranged tank from just standing on the boss the whole time?

You deal more damage at ranged.

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This is why I stated that you are actually advocating for a complete redesign of the game. I’m just spitballing here, but my guess is that after 17 years no one at Blizzard is walking into a meeting and saying “Let’s completely redesign the entire game!”

Again, the ranged tank I proposed is playing by the rules of the established tanking method of WoW, which is melee-centric. You don't need to "completely redesign the entire game", that's hyperbole. You simply need to design new raid encounters for the new ranged tank, and tweak older content so that it isn't overly punishing. Again, if the ranged tank is following rules established by the melee majority, it wouldn't take the fundamental overhaul you're suggesting.