Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[MoanaLisa]

It would create problems the moment your group's tactic doesn't fit the AI script, or force you to figure out Blizzard's intended tactic for the fight. Far to limiting.

To some extent that's true now though isn't it? Most high level raiding on the player/raid team side consists of three components: 1) Figure out a strategy that 'solves' for a solution to the scripted behavior of the boss, 2) Get geared up to the point where that strategy is viable in terms of damage and survivability and 3) Execute that strategy perfectly (or as perfectly as possible).

I understand your point but I don't see a lot of radical variation with respect to how tanks handle most fights.

I still think—and said so—that a human-driven tank is going to generally be a bit better than any AI could be as they can more easily adjust to existing conditions when things get off-track. At the most difficult levels that's likely to lead to a wipe in any case but the chances of a tank saving the moment are higher if human than scripted.

In any case, this sort of thing as a practical thing would only need to exist for something like LFR where the constraints are much, much looser. Since I'm no longer talking about a ranged tank necessarily I'll leave it at that. I'm ambivalent about whether or not you could fight a raid boss with the equivalent of a pet but the design problem doesn't seem insurmountable. You're absolutely right though that the DPS contingent would have to strictly follow the tank AI. I'm just not certain that that is really so different from now.

[Tradu]

I'm ignoring it because it's nonsense. Ranged classes take melee damage all the time. That doesn't negate the fact that they're ranged.




So your argument is that since the tank has a device in melee range, the tank is no longer ranged despite the PC fighting at ranged?

That's rather asinine.



That's some hilarious hyperbole right there.

Your solution to precise positioning is literally for your ranged tank to go into melee. Guess what? That's basically a tank's entire job, so your "ranged tank" would just be a melee tank with a pointless "ranged stance".

[TigTone]

my questions were about how the Ranged tank can keep the boss at range with out blizzard redesigning every single thing in the game. Nothing to do with "Tech" The idea would not work

That seems to be the only issues pet control in WoW is garage.

[Tradu]

Again, how would a tank following the general rules of tanking in WoW require a complete redesign of the game? You keep saying this, yet provide no evidence to back it up.

Make up your mind. Either they wouldn't have to (re)design fights with your tinker in mind because it follows the rules of melee tanks(meaning there's no reason for it to exist or be considered a "ranged tank")

or:

Yes, because Sire Denathrius was a raid fight designed with a ranged tank in mind right?

they would have to (re)design fights with your tinker in mind.

[Loveliest]

I have always entertained the idea of a ranged tank. I play all tanks and I mean all in all the MMOs I have tried. As you can imagine, I rushed to try out shieldtech powertech tank in swtor but sadly, even if you can pull from range and have some abilities to go up in the air, most of the time you are in melee.
I have yet to see how you could implement a ranged tank.

I don't really understand the design you propose. The shield moves with you except if you want it not to, but otherwise you've basically got another hitbox in front? Or I suppose the shield should face you or away from you depending on your choice... dunno, would have to see how this works, its hard to tell.
I mean unless you yourself are immune to damage, and mechanics, you have to take care of positioning for two spots and that sounds impossible.
But as a base idea, sure, try something new, why not.

[Tradu]

Except the ranged concept I developed fits the existing paradigm just fine.

Then how come you refuse to explain how it'd work on Sire Denathrius?

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Yep, moving on from the definition of what is and isn't ranged, because it's semantic nonsense....



And positioning is dealt with by merging the PC with the barrier or by moving the barrier.



So a class taking reduced damage from a barrier is OP/UP now?



Both of which are dealt with. The PC takes damage from the barrier, which forces them to worry about boss mechanics. The ranged tank does have to worry about positioning, but that's every tank. I've admitted that positioning the barrier is an extra level of complexity, but once again I feel that it is a level of complexity that players would be willing to deal with to play a true ranged tanking spec.

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And I focused on a technology class/spec first because it's easier to conceptualize, and is potentially free from standard WoW pet based mechanics, which were major hang ups earlier in the thread.



Because I'm still working on that concept. It's actually more difficult than the tech-based concept for a host of reasons. However, I've mentioned multiple times in this thread that I want to do a spec based on Rexxar from HotS. If you actually read the thread you'd know that.

Clunkiness, not complexity, because this is WoW we're talking about, not a game designed around controlling 2 characters. Literally try any pet class and see how nice and responsive all their movement and abilities are. Spoiler: they're not.

Your "tech based" concept is not free from pet based mechanics, you just think they'll magic up some new solution instead of using pets/guardians for some reason.

[TigTone]

I have always entertained the idea of a ranged tank. I play all tanks and I mean all in all the MMOs I have tried. As you can imagine, I rushed to try out shieldtech powertech tank in swtor but sadly, even if you can pull from range and have some abilities to go up in the air, most of the time you are in melee.
I have yet to see how you could implement a ranged tank.

I don't really understand the design you propose. The shield moves with you except if you want it not to, but otherwise you've basically got another hitbox in front? Or I suppose the shield should face you or away from you depending on your choice... dunno, would have to see how this works, its hard to tell. But as a base idea, sure, try something new, why not.

The only way it would work is if the controller is immune to everything and basically doesn’t exist to npcs.

That way everything just attacks the Tanking unit and transfer that damage to the player.

[Tradu]

As I've mentioned before, if you streamline the positioning, it shouldn't be clunky. I've streamlined the movements of this concept to 4 abilities, which aren't pet abilities;

Button 1: Summon/Unsummon barrier. Hold button to move barrier forward. Once barrier is established, press again to cancel.
Button 2: Tracking (toggle): Barrier will follow the lateral movements of the PC. Untoggle tracking and the barrier will remain stationary.
Button 3: Merge: PC teleports to barriers location, merging with it. Merge becomes Separation. Separation will re-establish the barrier and the PC will be ported behind it.
Button 4: Locus: Move an established barrier to a specified location.

That's not streamlined. That's 4x the buttons that Fury of Elune had and that ability was absolutely miserable to position.

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The adds follow the threat, which means they will attack the barrier, not the PC.
The barrier only reduces damage for the tank, no one else. Perhaps a potential cooldown, but that would be about it.



You're free to believe that, but if you're fighting from range, and your damage rotation is entirely ranged, you're ranged.

BTW, it's rather annoying that you trash this thread, yet constantly ask questions as if you want to participate in it. Make up your mind please.

So even less of a ranged tank? Because any time your barrier is on CD, the mobs would be running to you and you'd be just another melee tank.

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Well since you complained to the mods, I can’t answer those questions. Good job!

I’ll be posting my dragoon concept shortly.

Nice excuse. You can obviously still use the example of a barrier and the player character, because it literally doesn't matter what concept you conjure up, it'll always be a case of 1 pet in melee and 1 player at range.

[Loveliest]

Edit: if you don't want denathrius, think first boss in lista with the circle on the ground. Or last boss in mists with circles in the ground. Or first boss in hoa with the lines. Or any boss, really, avoiding shit on th ground for the entire grp is a basic design that is super common

[Tradu]

His questions were specifically about the tech-based spec. A non-tech ranged tank would require different mechanics.

No, it wouldn't. It would still be the exact same 4 buttons just with different names, and the barrier would be called a demon or something.

[Loveliest]

The only way it would work is if the controller is immune to everything and basically doesn’t exist to npcs.

That way everything just attacks the Tanking unit and transfer that damage to the player.

Yeah, I was thinking that. Otherwise positioning would be impossible. And doing mechanics in general.

[Tradu]

Edit: if you don't want denathrius, think first boss in lista with the circle on the ground. Or last boss in mists with circles in the ground. Or first boss in hoa with the lines. Or any boss, really, avoiding shit on th ground for the entire grp is a basic design that is super common

Or Sludgefist. Would it be the pet or the tank that gets chained to the other tank? If it's the pet, you'd have to permanently be in melee "stance" in order to stay on top of the other guy(you would even without the chain, probably). If it's the player, you'd be standing in melee and are no longer a ranged tank.

[Teriz]

Doesn't change that they're ranged classes, meant to be at range, outside of melee. If a ranged class is taking melee damage in setting they're not supposed to (basically, any content where they have a tank) they're doing something wrong.

I'm not making the argument that taking melee damage means you're no longer ranged. Someone else is.

Then true ranged tanking is impossible in the current paradigm, since you have to be in melee range to tank effectively.

Not you, just your threat generating ability.

All of the ideas to implement some kind of "pet" that stays in melee range so the PC can stay at range are negated by all the current mechanics that require a level of synergy and responsiveness that you simply won't get if the PC has to control and manage both the ranged aspects AND melee aspects at the same time.

Which is why you simplify the controls of the "pet", which is completely doable. For more complex movements, merge them together.

And again, if the "trick" is that the pet transfers damage to the PC who is at ranged....the ranged aspect of the PC is completely negated because they're constantly taking melee damage.

Not really, because there can be buffs applied to the spec for fighting at range. For example in the tech-spec concept, the tank would deal increased damage by firing through the field at range.

Everyone else sees the holes and the issues about why it doesn't fit and have pointed them out repeatedly. You refusing to admit it and claim it still does, doesn't make it true.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Not going to repeat what other people have already said just because you want to stick your fingers in your ears and stomp your feet about it. You repeating bullshit doesn't make it correct or accurate.

So once again you say there's holes yet you can't provide any examples of said holes. Got it.

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No, it wouldn't. It would still be the exact same 4 buttons just with different names, and the barrier would be called a demon or something.

The demon would need to perform melee attacks, since it isn't an inanimate object. Thus the mechanics change, because now you have two characters dealing damage. Also players would expect actual pets like demons, beasts, undead to have some actual abilities assigned to them beyond simply movement.

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Make up your mind. Either they wouldn't have to (re)design fights with your tinker in mind because it follows the rules of melee tanks(meaning there's no reason for it to exist or be considered a "ranged tank")

they would have to (re)design fights with your tinker in mind.

There's a difference between "tweaking" and "redesigning". The former is what they do for every new tank spec, and would be no different with this one.

[Kokolums]

The game would just start to get weird if Blizz did ranged tanking.

[Katchii]

I'm not making the argument that taking melee damage means you're no longer ranged. Someone else is.

Your reading comprehension is atrocious. That is not at all what I said. Try again.

Not you, just your threat generating ability.

Then it's still melee tanking. Not ranged tanking. Because the thing that's actually tanking the boss is in melee range.

Which is why you simplify the controls of the "pet", which is completely doable. For more complex movements, merge them together.

Please do tell how this would ACTUALLY be accomplished rather than hand waving some kind of "just make it work" implementation.

Not really, because there can be buffs applied to the spec for fighting at range. For example in the tech-spec concept, the tank would deal increased damage by firing through the field at range.

There's no reason for the PC to be at range if they're going to be managing and taking damage from melee mechanics. You can do "ranged" attacks from melee range, I mean...you're the one who said ranged classes already do that, so it shouldn't be a problem right?

So once again you say there's holes yet you can't provide any examples of said holes. Got it.

I'm not going to do your homework for you. Everyone else already has. I'm simply pointing out that you're either not paying attention, or are being willfully ignorant of where those holes are and WHY they are holes.

I'm done responding though. Thanks for yet another reminder of why I have you on ignore.

[Tradu]

The demon would need to perform melee attacks, since it isn't an inanimate object. Thus the mechanics change, because now you have two characters dealing damage. Also players would expect actual pets like demons, beasts, undead to have some actual abilities assigned to them beyond simply movement.

It literally doesn't matter if they attack or not. You'd be relying on the same game mechanics to control them.

[Gourbaak]

i wonder what the next "not tinker at all" thread will be

[Teriz]

Your reading comprehension is atrocious. That is not at all what I said. Try again.

Uh huh.

Then it's still melee tanking. Not ranged tanking. Because the thing that's actually tanking the boss is in melee range.

You're also tanking the boss at ranged, since you're controlling the boss' positioning at range.

Please do tell how this would ACTUALLY be accomplished rather than hand waving some kind of "just make it work" implementation.

Check the OP.

I'm done responding though. Thanks for yet another reminder of why I have you on ignore.

You say this constantly, yet somehow you still see my posts and offer unwanted responses. Interesting how that works.

[PrivateSmiley]

Another Tinker thread, who would have guessed????

Anyway: how about no?
Ranged tanking is not something that would work in wow. What are the mobs hitting if it isnt you?

Would create more issues than solve, especially if you added Melee DPS into the mix

[TigTone]

@Teriz

What’s your preferred range style tank?

The hybrid range/melee of jumping into and out of range in to resolve movement requirements?

Or

A full range tank where the controller is immune to mechanics/damage and everything that happens to the tank unit is transferred to the controller.

To solve the issue of movement the tank unit can teleport/dash to a new location to deal with movement requirements.

And for damage concerns the unit abilities are ranged 0 - 20 yards to deal with sudden movement from the second tank. While teleport/dash is on CD