Now that its been proven min maxes are the majority will content change?

[kaminaris]

I understand that he claims to be a high level player, and yet doesn't understand that if you're pushing up to 95th percentile in your class, you're definitely in the upper echelon of understanding your class mechanics and DEFINITELY understand all of your covenants.

It's not even that difficult to do.

So you just didn't understand his post.

[RoKPaNda]

No one does that. Everyone can get in content despite choices. What matters is performance. It makes clearing content easier. The road of least resistance we all shift towards.
If it's easier to perform with covenant X then that is what people will gravitate towards.

What's real and what isn't really doesn't really matter. It's all about the perception of the community at large. Back when Blizzard did the cosmetic helmets like 5 people total were kicked out of groups for selling them, but a lot of people said they were afraid to buy them because of reading about that. So if the community hypes up how bad the covenant system is going to be and the need to pick the right one for several months leading up to SL, guess what even the casuals are going to do? Couple that with the fact that even the most basic "WTF am I doing?" guides for WoW over at Wowhead/Icy-Veins/etc have sections telling people what their best covenant is, yeah.

You're generally right but misguided.

[Traveler Voltin]

Didnt blizzard say they wanted to break the whole min/max thing?

Seems like they made it worse

[Echo of Soul]

No this site scans the whole armory it isn't limited by what content they are doing only if they were active in some content within the last 28 days...

The majority has spoken not with words that can be twisted but with action. You seem to be grasping at anything that will let you dismiss this rather then just accepting it.

Shadowlands is a lot older than 28 days though and it's not surprising that it looks like everyone is minmaxing because everyone that's left probably is. Millions of casuals have already left the game but they conveniently leave them out of the statistics to push their own narrative. When you also show data of characters and not accounts it only gets worse since elitist nolifers are more likely to have multiple characters who all minmax.

I challenge them to give us all the data. Only one character per account and from the last four months. It will look VERY different.

[crusadernero]

Didnt blizzard say they wanted to break the whole min/max thing?

Seems like they made it worse

But how can they really fight it? This is in the end a game about stats and abilities. Some are great, meaning others must be worse. It even affected classic, even though the raids/dungeons were(is) piss easy to clear with whatever raid comp. Certain classes/specs were(are) frowned upon, even though bosses fall over.

Whatever new stuff Blizzard comes with that has stats or abilities tied to it, someone will crunch the numbers and put the info on a wow site. Before you know it, the community has deemed class/spec X/Y good or bad.

When we know this behaviour is alive and strong in a easy version of classic, its no wonder its the same/worse on retail. In retail theres actual hard raids(mythic) and hard dungeons(high m+ keys). People want optimal setups in a piss easy classic raid/dungeon, no wonder they want the same in retail.

[Raven]

All it prove is people google what is best covenant for my class to help them with that choice.

But thats FAR from what min / maxing is, seen plenty with best covenant for their class but then using wrong or missing enchants, or wrong talents from the best choice.

[Xykotic]

I would argue its just the old human trope of following the path of least resistance to reach goals, rather than some express desire to minmax.

[Glorious Leader]

Nobody is born with an inherent knowledge of how to play wow. When making a decision like which covenant to choose its perfectly natural to look to your peers or consult resources and knowledge to provide guidance on the decision. This does not reflect any express desire on the part of the player base at whole to chase some particular paradigm, rather its a reflection on the way information is disseminated.

That would be an interesting experiment. If all the resources people used to inform themselves ((ivy veins noxxxic method gg for example) colluded and lied about what the best pick was.

[Doffen]

Suddenly it's quite clear why I have you on ignore.

Why do you have him on ignore? Man, all the fun reads you miss out on then.

I saw a feral druid in Sinfall yesterday. That was kinda cool, a bloodthirsty beast fits right in.

[jazen]

There's a large difference between min/maxing and just picking a covenant that happens to be best for your class. My Boomkin went night fae for convoke AND for thematic reasons. Was it to min/max? Not really.

[Nobleshield]

Min-maxers are what have ruined the game and continue to ruin the game. The less we cater to those people the better.

[Doffen]

There's a large difference between min/maxing and just picking a covenant that happens to be best for your class. My Boomkin went night fae for convoke AND for thematic reasons. Was it to min/max? Not really.

Same here. Cumvoke(druid nick I have seen ingame) is awesome and Night Fae and Ardenweald is purely druid fantasy. However like I mentioned above, feral druid going venthyr for the theme and ability made me smile.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

There's a large difference between min/maxing and just picking a covenant that happens to be best for your class. My Boomkin went night fae for convoke AND for thematic reasons. Was it to min/max? Not really.

Boomkins are not necessarily the rule here.

The classes with obvious overlaps do tend to have their preferred covenant as the best choice (dps and resto druids, hunters, unholy DKs and Paladins). However not every class is so lucky. Warlocks are one of the more egregious examples, with Night Fae being the clear winner in spite of the heavy clash with the Warlock aesthetic. Maldraxxus is explicitly designed as the Warrior covenant for warriors who like to do war warriorly, but even after the rework it's not a good choice for DPS warriors. Mages lack any obvious ties to nature but are funnelled to Ardenweald anyway. Shaman, paragons of nature, are encouraged to work with either undead abominations or proud aristocrats.

Now I'll be the first to argue that from a lore standpoint you can RP any character how you wish and make any covenant fit any class you choose, but it's clear that it's not as clear cut as "the thematic choice just happens to work out". The data definitely seems to support a significant number of players choosing ill-fitting covenants for power gains.

[Grimlokh]

If you ignore that the best covenant also often are the best fit themeatically, sure.

Except for DK Necrolord, I think none of the classes fit their best covenant thematically. NF Fire Mage? Resto shaman necrolord? Holy Pally Venthyr? Afli Lock Ascended?

[Traveler Voltin]

But how can they really fight it? This is in the end a game about stats and abilities. Some are great, meaning others must be worse. It even affected classic, even though the raids/dungeons were(is) piss easy to clear with whatever raid comp. Certain classes/specs were(are) frowned upon, even though bosses fall over.

Whatever new stuff Blizzard comes with that has stats or abilities tied to it, someone will crunch the numbers and put the info on a wow site. Before you know it, the community has deemed class/spec X/Y good or bad.

When we know this behaviour is alive and strong in a easy version of classic, its no wonder its the same/worse on retail. In retail theres actual hard raids(mythic) and hard dungeons(high m+ keys). People want optimal setups in a piss easy classic raid/dungeon, no wonder they want the same in retail.

i dont think they can fight it. they suck at balance anyway.
but i dont think its ever been this bad.

[Electric Lighter]

There's a large difference between min/maxing and just picking a covenant that happens to be best for your class. My Boomkin went night fae for convoke AND for thematic reasons. Was it to min/max? Not really.

Are we now creating new terms for min maxing like we did for casual and terrible player?

If your arguments boils down to " Well they just used a guide to be the best they didn't math it out" you really, really don't have much of a arguments...

[Echocho]

Shadowlands is a lot older than 28 days though and it's not surprising that it looks like everyone is minmaxing because everyone that's left probably is. Millions of casuals have already left the game but they conveniently leave them out of the statistics to push their own narrative. When you also show data of characters and not accounts it only gets worse since elitist nolifers are more likely to have multiple characters who all minmax.

I challenge them to give us all the data. Only one character per account and from the last four months. It will look VERY different.

They'll never do that. They want covenants turned into a talent row and showing all the data gives them less a chance of that.

Right now is the dream situation for them. Most casuals have quit and the remaining minmaxers with multiple characters heavily skews the results in their favor.

[Azerate]

No this site scans the whole armory it isn't limited by what content they are doing only if they were active in some content within the last 28 days...

The majority has spoken not with words that can be twisted but with action. You seem to be grasping at anything that will let you dismiss this rather then just accepting it.

There's no site that scans every character on the armory regardless of what they are doing in game. You are either just lying or being wilfully ignorant to further reinforce your own arguments.

[NineSpine]

Boomkins are not necessarily the rule here.

The classes with obvious overlaps do tend to have their preferred covenant as the best choice (dps and resto druids, hunters, unholy DKs and Paladins). However not every class is so lucky. Warlocks are one of the more egregious examples, with Night Fae being the clear winner in spite of the heavy clash with the Warlock aesthetic. Maldraxxus is explicitly designed as the Warrior covenant for warriors who like to do war warriorly, but even after the rework it's not a good choice for DPS warriors. Mages lack any obvious ties to nature but are funnelled to Ardenweald anyway. Shaman, paragons of nature, are encouraged to work with either undead abominations or proud aristocrats.

Now I'll be the first to argue that from a lore standpoint you can RP any character how you wish and make any covenant fit any class you choose, but it's clear that it's not as clear cut as "the thematic choice just happens to work out". The data definitely seems to support a significant number of players choosing ill-fitting covenants for power gains.

Warlock is a bit more complicated than that though. None of the covenants really line up neatly with it thematically, and the abilities are thematically super boring except for the Night Fae one. I almost went Night Fae purely because of how much cooler the ability was. It had nothing to do with power. Venthyr and Necrolords provide incredibly bland abilities. Necrolord is just a big bolt on a cooldown. That's it. Night Fae provides a DoT that synergises with other abilities.

[Electric Lighter]

There's no site that scans every character on the armory regardless of what they are doing in game. You are either just lying or being wilfully ignorant to further reinforce your own arguments.

I mean yes... they cut it off after 28 days of activity but are we really stretching this hard just to not admit the majority of players simply play for power gain and trying to tie restrictive narrative choices to that is a terrible idea?

Just make those choices cosmetic actually cater to the majority of players. The min maxers.