First independent report into Xinjiang genocide allegations claims evidence of...

[Shadowferal]

I think this statement is very little thought through and quite disrespectful to the Jews who died or lived through those times.

It's sad but likely true though. One of the biggest mistakes the Nazi regime made was they refused to consolidate their gains...constantly pushed the boundaries. Had they accepted Montgomery's appeasement they might still be in power.

The world is not the same today as it was in the 30s, and Germany then was nowhere near the powerhouse China is, or had any hold on the rest of the world like they do.

...and China is a nuclear power with too many other countries invested in it. They'll do as the US does; they'll talk...and talk.

[Mihalik]

I think this statement is very little thought through and quite disrespectful to the Jews who died or lived through those times.

How exactly do you reckon the statement to be disrespectful? Or you outrage trolling?

The world as a whole was very much aware of the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Sure, the sheer barbarity of the death camps was unexpected, but the Nazi deportations, the seizures of Jewish property, the depravity of Nazi views of Jews wasn't unknown to the rest of the world. On the contrary it was public and widely reported.

But much of the rest of the world reacted with mostly a shrug and a "Not my problem."

Jewish refugees were turned away left and right, with the same arguments being used for justifying that as we use today against Muslim refugees.

The US rejected Jewish refugees in the droves, as had the UK and as had pretty much everyone else.

The world at best didn't give a fuck, at worst low key agreed with Nazi's rampant antisemitism.

There was a ton of global complicity in the Holocaust, ranging from complicity by indifference, indirect complicity all the way to overt direct complicity.

Denying that is disrespectful.

The world is not the same today as it was in the 30s, and Germany then was nowhere near the powerhouse China is, or had any hold on the rest of the world like they do.

Here you're being inconsistent in an attempt to once again handwave away this round of global indifference.

It's true, Nazi Germany's reach was limited beyond Europe, and while Germany was no serious threat to the US, the US mostly just chose to look the other way when it came to the Nazi persecution of the Jews.

But ultimately China's might is just a bullshit excuse. Most people in the developed world don't give a fuck about what's happening to the Uighurs. Not just they don't give a fuck, but even say shit like "well Muslims are a problem bla bla bla", we had plenty of those in this very thread.

A lot could be done if we actually gave a fuck. But people don't, "It's not our problem", "It's over there", "It's Muslims anyway", "This might require me to care about something beyond sportsball", "I don't want any Muslims in my country" etc.

Same. Fucking. Thing. As. It's. Been. Said. And. Done. Back. In. The 1930-1940's.

What you don't like is me drawing a parallel between Jewish and Muslim victims. Despite the self evident parallel.

So take your fake outrage and shove it up your ass.

[Shadowferal]

But much of the rest of the world reacted with mostly a shrug and a "Not my problem."

Jewish refugees were turned away left and right, with the same arguments being used for justifying that as we use today against Muslim refugees.

Argument was a bit different then.
The Great Depression was very much on everyone's mind and affected decisions.

[Mihalik]

Argument was a bit different then.
The Great Depression was very much on everyone's mind and affected decisions.

The Great Depression had fuck all to do with nativism and anti semitism. That was all there far before.

But regardless, the economic arguments that were brought up, are being used today in equal measure.

"We can't afford to care."

"Take care of our own first".

"They are taking our jobs. Homes etc."

Worse. Both the US and the UK for example imposed targeted immigration quotas severely restricting Jewish immigration SPECIFICALLY, throughout the 1930s and well into 1944.

During that entire period the US actually only took in 1/10th of Jews that its own legal quota would have allowed.

It's all been said then, and it's all being said now.

Nothing changed.

[Endus]

Nazis hatred of Jews was no secret, but how much of it was known? From what little I seem to remember, the death camps were something of a surprise.

The race laws and the subjugation and expulsion/incarceration of Jewish citizens was public knowledge both within Germany and without, at the time. Absolutely out in the open. Hitler's book Mein Kampf had spelled out a great deal of the justifications they would use, and that fucker was published in 1925, before Hitler even came to power. None of this was a secret.

The only thing being kept from the people was the nature of the death camps themselves, and even there, it's really questionable how well-kept a secret that was within Germany itself, or just the kind of thing you keep your mouth shut about.

But that Jewish citizens were being targeted for being Jewish, having all their possessions stolen and thrown into labour camps for abusive treatment, that was all public knowledge and no attempts were made to conceal any of it. The difference is that, at the time, most other nations kind of agreed with that. Jews were not really accepted anywhere at the time. Ships with Jewish refugees fleeing the Reich were turned back by a wide range of countries, because nobody wanted to let the Jews in.

The acceptance of Jewishness that's largely the status quo in Western society today is almost entirely something created as a response to the horrors of the Holocaust, a reaction to and rejection of those ideas. Like Mihalik said; nobody went to war to save the Jewish people from the Holocaust. Nobody really gave a shit at the time. The concern was wholly about the geopolitical expansionism. And really, only when Hitler turned West, since nobody gave a shit about Poland, either, really.

[Elegiac]

Argument was a bit different then.
The Great Depression was very much on everyone's mind and affected decisions.

Did you seriously just try to “economic anxiety” antisemitism?

Fucking lol.

[Shadowferal]

Did you seriously just try to “economic anxiety” antisemitism? Fucking lol.

False. It wasn't ever about anti-Semitism...here.

History...take a course. The great depression nailed everybody...and the US was stll in love with isolationist policies. The is basic US history 101. They don't teach this anymore? Isolationism was the policy then. This is PC2 ignorance.

[Forogil]

Nazis hatred of Jews was no secret, but how much of it was known? From what little I seem to remember, the death camps were something of a surprise.

Yes, case in point: in 1940 a movie was made satirizing Hitler named 'The Great Dictator', and the protagonist was sent to a cozy concentration camp.

[Elegiac]

False. It wasn't ever about anti-Semitism...here.

Um...what?

History...take a course. The great depression nailed everybody...and the US was stll in love with isolationist policies. The is basic US history 101. They don't teach this anymore? Isolationism was the policy then. This is PC2 ignorance.

So yeah, you’re doubling down on “American antisemitism was just economic anxiety” in the same way Trump supporters say they are just economically anxious about immigrants.

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Nazis hatred of Jews was no secret, but how much of it was known? From what little I seem to remember, the death camps were something of a surprise.

But you are not wrong. Nazis were attacking pretty much everyone around it, though, so that kind of aggression was understandably the main concern at the time.

“We knew that they were openly espousing genocidal rhetoric at the same time as they were stripping the target of their rhetoric of rights and herding them into ghettos and camps, but we had no idea a full scale genocide was taking place” kind of strains credulity and sounds more like an effort on the part of the victors to avoid acknowledging their complicity.

Or comparisons with their own programs of oppression. *coughs in Jim Crow*

[Forogil]

The concern was wholly about the geopolitical expansionism. And really, only when Hitler turned West, since nobody gave a shit about Poland, either, really.

History isn't your strong point.

Rhineland was remilitarized by Germany March 1936 - a direct violation of Treaty of Versailles. No war declared.
Germany invaded Austria March 1938, later confirmed by a plebiscite in April. No war declared.
Sudetenland annexed by Germany September 1938. No war declared.
Germany invaded rest of Czechoslovakia March 1939. No war declared.
Poland invaded by Germany and USSR September 1939. War declared against Germany, including a blockade (and some minor attacks in the west).

Realistically there wasn't much more the allied could do, and the quick collapse of Poland didn't help.

[Elegiac]

History isn't your strong point.

Rhineland was remilitarized by Germany March 1936 - a direct violation of Treaty of Versailles. No war declared.
Germany invaded Austria March 1938, later confirmed by a plebiscite in April. No war declared.
Sudetenland annexed by Germany September 1938. No war declared.
Germany invaded rest of Czechoslovakia March 1939. No war declared.
Poland invaded by Germany and USSR September 1939. War declared against Germany, including a blockade (and some minor attacks in the west).

Realistically there wasn't much more the allied could do, and the quick collapse of Poland didn't help.

This does not mean the Allies' concerns at the start of the war weren't geopolitical, so not sure why you think this refutes Endus' statement about the Allies not giving a shit about the Jews or Poland.

[Shadowferal]

Strolling down the wrong lane here. For those that should pick up a book...a real book;



That said...nothing will change regarding China. Thousands of lobbyists with their paid off congress-people..oh maybe a lot of noise...but nothing much more than when Clinton threatened to revoke China's most favored nation status....which was promptly renewed that year.

[Forogil]

This does not mean the Allies' concerns at the start of the war weren't geopolitical, so not sure why you think this refutes Endus' statement about the Allies not giving a shit about the Jews or Poland.

Have you considered getting your eyes fixed?

The claim was that they didn't care that Poland was invaded, but only about the west - whereas the actual history showed that they let Hitler invade in the west without consequence and only declared war when Poland was invaded.

Obviously there were different geopolitical and military considerations - and it's obvious that the plight of the Jews wasn't that known and not that important for the Allies.

[Felya]

The claim was that they didn't care that Poland was invaded, but only about the west - whereas the actual history showed that they let Hitler invade in the west without consequence and only declared war when Poland was invaded.

Uhm... Poland was invaded by Germany and one of the allies as part of Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

[Forogil]

Uhm... Poland was invaded by Germany and one of the allies as part of Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

Do you have a point?

1. I wrote that USSR also invaded Poland in September 1939.
2. The allies in September 1939 were Poland, France, the UK and some others, whereas the USSR didn't become part of the allies until June 1941, and the US formally joined in December 1941.

[Felya]

Do you have a point?

You are claiming that allies were triggered by Poland, when Poland was invaded by one of the allies. A better question, what point are you trying to make, by arguing this? What happened to Poland after WW2? What was their prize for being saved from invasion?

The allies in September 1939 were Poland, France, the UK and some others, whereas the USSR didn't become part of the allies until June 1941, and the US formally joined in December 1941.

It’s as if Russia invading Poland with Germany, has no impact on them joining the allies... in fact... Poland was part of the iron curtain, given to USSR, as a buffer against western aggression.

[Elegiac]

Have you considered getting your eyes fixed?

The claim was that they didn't care that Poland was invaded, but only about the west - whereas the actual history showed that they let Hitler invade in the west without consequence and only declared war when Poland was invaded.

Ah, okay. You seem to be of the opinion that a perfunctory declaration of war and in actuality doing fuck all about it until 1940 translates to giving a shit, lol.

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Do you have a point?

Do you, besides being needlessly pedantic in a discussion which, ironically enough, has a lot of bad faith actors covering for China's actions in Xinjiang by getting in a huff over the technical definitions of things like 'concentration camp' or 'genocide'? You know, when what actually matters is that these things are happening and they are bad, not how much of a war timeline you can recite off the top of your head.

[Mihalik]

Strolling down the wrong lane here. For those that should pick up a book...a real book;



That said...nothing will change regarding China. Thousands of lobbyists with their paid off congress-people..oh maybe a lot of noise...but nothing much more than when Clinton threatened to revoke China's most favored nation status....which was promptly renewed that year.

I'd just like to point out that that book is widely derided in academic circles as superficial at best, catastrophically bad at worst.

The book is choke full of massive leaps of logic, is noted for being terribly sourced and is know for massively white washing the role of the Western allies while simultaneously turning the Germans into cartoon villains.

It was popular in the US, especially during the early years of the Cold War, but is largely either unknown outside or considered propagandistic hoghwash outside or in academic circles.

German anti-semitism wasn't the anomaly in the western world in the first part of the 20th century. It was part of the mainstream and the norm. The Germans just took it to the logical extreme.

[Forogil]

You are claiming that allies were triggered by Poland, when Poland was invaded by one of the allies.

No, I claim that the allies in 1939 were triggered by the invasion of Poland in 1939. The fact that USSR would join the allies in 1941 didn't matter in 1939.

So once more:

Do you have a point?

1. I wrote that USSR also invaded Poland in September 1939.
2. The allies in September 1939 were Poland, France, the UK and some others, whereas the USSR didn't become part of the allies until June 1941, and the US formally joined in December 1941.

Is it clearer if I say that the UK and France cared about Germany invading Poland but not about the previous four invasions by Germany that were more western. Claiming that no-one cared about Poland, but only about invasion in the west is simple false.

A better question, what point are you trying to make, by arguing this? What happened to Poland after WW2? What was their prize for being saved from invasion?

Being invaded by the USSR, and made a vassal state. The west didn't find it realistic to attack the USSR and free Poland.

What do you think the west should have done? Attacked USSR in 1945? Not accepted support by USSR against Germany in 1941? Tried to send troops to Poland in 1939 and have them cut to pieces immediately? Or blockade Germany in 1939, make some small incursions, but primarily try to mobilize for war? The latter is the realistic option that was chosen.

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Ah, okay. You seem to be of the opinion that a perfunctory declaration of war and in actuality doing fuck all about it until 1940 translates to giving a shit, lol.

That wasn't what happened, hun.

Do you, besides being needlessly pedantic

Claiming that the USSR joined the allies in 1941 and thus wasn't part of the allies in 1939 is "needlessly pedantic"? What do you consider "necessary pedantic" in that case?

[Elegiac]

What do you consider "necessary pedantic" in that case?

Something that would actually refute the point being made rather than, again, just broadcasting how much of a war timeline you can pull off the top of your head.