China... how to deal with them?

[JohnBrown1917]

In regards to China doing whatever they want, here is another one from today:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56474847

P.S.
After reading through the topic all I can say that way too many of you have basically already given up. Anyway, there is going to be a nice wakeup call to the West (and basically rest of the world as well) when China finally invades Taiwan and TSMC falls under their grasp, thus giving PRC control of world's semiconductor market. I do not think that enough people grasp the importance of this factor (or even understand it in the first place), nor do I feel that current ongoing projects about building fabs elsewhere in the world will have advanced far enough to reduce the dependance on Taiwan's production in this regard.
Your dreams of uninvadable Taiwan being the David vs China's Goliath will not come to pass.



There is no MAD scenario in USA vs China if we talk about nuclear exchange.

Enough people understand the importance, most just don't care. Not our problem.

[Easo]

Enough people understand the importance, most just don't care. Not our problem.

I wonder how much you are ready to pay for new PC/phone... Or actually have one available for purchase.

And what do you expect the US to do exactly?

World, you mean. This is not only about US. As minimum - repeat the 90ties and sail carrier task groups through Taiwan strait/around the "China's islands" regularly, no ifs or buts. My bet is on PRC doing empty posturing in answer and nothing else. Also, arm the fuck out of Vietnam (heh, ironic) and Philippines, if needed. That would be a start...

The Taiwan military or the US will blow up those fabs first rather than let them fall into the hands of the Chinese. There are always rumors, not sure if they are true, that those fabs are rigged with explosives in the event of just such circumstance.

Keep in mind, although US companies have offshored a lot of semiconductor manufacturing, the US still controls the semiconductor manufacturing tools. The company that make EUV Lithography tools belong to a very exclusive club with one member – ASML. Yes it is a Dutch company. However, it uses US licensed technology and critical parts from 3 Silicon Valley companies. Without EUVL tools, absolutely no one in the world can build 28-nanometer fabs or better. That's why a single machine cost between 200 to 250 million. ASML can charge over $1,000 per hour for one of their repair technician and millions for replacement spare parts.

I fully expect that if they are not stupid then they have contigency plans for TSMC. Also, I am quite sure EUVL started way later than 28nm. Not everything needs latest tech (microcontroller bords, for example).
P.S.
Yes, I know about ASML. Honestly, in such situation, with Taiwan lost, rules would change, I fully would expect Dutch allowing ASML to do whatever, license rules would go out of the window.

There is a scenario of assured destruction of valueable US assets such as Japan, Korea, Taiwan. And no, I don't think semiconductor market would fall under the China's grasp, since unless China is able to deploy and fully conquer within maybe an hour, every single one of these factories will be sabotaged and totally ruined beyond repair either by Taiwan itself or by USA

Let's point something out - those countries are not USA's assets, but allies. Still not a MAD scenario for States. But yes, same answer as above - I expect destruction of fabs.
And again as I said to the Johnie - this leads to incredible shortages of PC's and phones and prices going up Zimbabwe style. Read, this would impact you as well. TSMC has more than half of the world's market, they are also quite literally the best at what they do. Please note - this is my belief that PRC will go after Taiwan, which is why I made that comment in the first place.

[Corvus]

And again as I said to the Johnie - this leads to incredible shortages of PC's and phones and prices going up Zimbabwe style. Read, this would impact you as well. TSMC has more than half of the world's market, they are also quite literally the best at what they do. Please note - this is my belief that PRC will go after Taiwan, which is why I made that comment in the first place.

Yeah, that one is a bit of a given. You don't build up so massive a military so quickly at ludicrous expense for no reason. None of its neighbours are strong enough to ever threaten them and no one would ever consider invading them.

Plus their rhetoric and propaganda, especially internal, gives them no choice. They have stated, repeatedly, that Taiwan must come under CCP rule by 2049. Not should. MUST. If Taiwan doesn't do so willingly then it will be done by force.

Their populace have been told this, as well as how powerful their military is, so it will be a massive loss of credibility if they don't do it. It is the kind of thing that causes dictatorships to fall, or at least to result in massive instability.

The only reason they haven't tried yet is they just don't know what the USA would do.

[Bakis]

If limiting to western democracies. EU countries are too vurnable with the trade (the 3rd world are already in debt via investment traps or on todays topic vaccines).
It would have to be a massive cross-sector mutual pressure.
I dont see any sign at all of internal pressure in China as a will for democracy (cos they never even been close so who can blame them).

South China Sea is regretably where US is more or less alone but limiting their slots at our higher centres of scholarship, developing semiconductors and overall get to as large extent as possible less reliable on cheap Chinese goods is the key.

Last point though, that will strike us consumers and outside of tariffs forcing other suppliers to become competative, it wont ever happen which blows since its the one pressure point that will hurt.
It's more likely time will pass and their population growth will force them to start wars and countries or treaties will force other countries to put them in place.

All hail Mao..

[Liftbrul]

I wasn't aware that they needed to be dealt with.

[Bakis]

I wasn't aware that they needed to be dealt with.

Thats what reading Superman comics get ya ;p

[Magical Mudcrab]

In regards to China doing whatever they want, here is another one from today:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56474847

Easo, I am disappointed in you. You should be more sympathetic to China. How else are they supposed to fish? Using nets? They'll stick to their guns, thank you.

Really though, lack of U.S. leadership in the area has allowed China to run rampant the last few years. It is a little sad that this is being allowed to happen, especially given how blatant China is lying about the size of their borders. Their claim clearly infringes upon the marine territory of the Philippines, Malaysia, and Vietnam. That said, this conflict is not new. China has been building man-made islands in the SCS for years as a means to try and legitimize their claim, and there is not much the smaller nations in the region can do without the intervention of another superpower. Hopefully Biden's tougher stance on China will actually help stabilize the region, as returning to the pre-Trump normalcy will mean multilateral action against China will be feasible again.

[Slant]

Hmm, things are getting interesting:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/22/p...2T16%3A01%3A03

The US announced sanctions Monday against two Chinese officials for "serious human rights abuses" against Uyghur Muslims, a step coordinated with the European Union, Canada and the United Kingdom, which imposed sanctions on the same individuals and others, the Treasury Department said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN2BE1WB

China on Monday blacklisted 10 EU individuals and four entities in response to Brussels’ sanctions against Chinese officials over alleged human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region.

I hope y'alls graphic cards are still working...

[Gaidax]

That's about sums up all one could ever expect EU and the likes to have balls for- sanctions against a couple of fattened middle management pawns.

Phew, thanks god they went from "deeply concerned" to this very effective action that means business. /s

[Yadryonych]

That's about sums up all one could ever expect EU and the likes to have balls for- sanctions against a couple of fattened middle management pawns.

Phew, thanks god they went from "deeply concerned" to this very effective action that means business. /s

I wonder if you are doing your part in defeating bad bad China?

[Felya]

I wonder if you are doing your part in defeating bad bad China?

They are... what other point is there to being an Internet tough guy?

[JohnBrown1917]

That's about sums up all one could ever expect EU and the likes to have balls for- sanctions against a couple of fattened middle management pawns.

Phew, thanks god they went from "deeply concerned" to this very effective action that means business. /s

As much as Countries like the US and Isreal have horrible policies that cause untold amount of suffering to other humans, I do think sanctions will only cause more harm than good.


Oh wait, you mean China? right? Yeah same thing, but my bad.

[Gaidax]

I wonder if you are doing your part in defeating bad bad China?

I'm not in the position of power to defeat the bad bad China. Elect me as a President of European Council or President of United States first. kthx.

[Slant]

I'm not in the position of power to defeat the bad bad China. Elect me as a President of European Council or President of United States first. kthx.

Start by removing all items in your household that have "Made in China" on them or their components.

[Gaidax]

Start by removing all items in your household that have "Made in China" on them or their components.

Sure thing boss, you gonna pay me to buy those "China-free" items to replace them?

When I'll be a millionaire you can ask me that, but then, I doubt it's even feasible at this point... i.e. look at the very first reply in the thread.


In the end - the solution is not with the common person, the common person does nothing wrong with buying cheap and convenient products that make sense, because much of the alternatives are good 20-30% more expensive if not much more or simply do not exist locally.

That's why these derpy replies "and what did you do to fight China" put a smile on my face. It's not your or my job to counter China and their industrial might - it's what governments are for, but they can't anymore. At best they can do this "deeply concerned" and flaccid "sanctions" to wipe their conscience clean - "we did something!" style.

But hey, ultimately as I said - the ship has sailed. Should have done that shit back in 80s, right after Tiananmen Square, but hard and for real, instead the shit that did not do anything long term.

[Machismo]

Sure thing boss, you gonna pay me to buy those "China-free" items to replace them?

When I'll be a millionaire you can ask me that, but then, I doubt it's even feasible at this point... i.e. look at the very first reply in the thread.


In the end - the solution is not with the common person, the common person does nothing wrong with buying cheap and convenient products that make sense, because much of the alternatives are good 20-30% more expensive if not much more or simply do not exist locally.

That's why these derpy replies "and what did you do to fight China" put a smile on my face. It's not your or my job to counter China and their industrial might - it's what governments are for, but they can't anymore. At best they can do this "deeply concerned" and flaccid "sanctions" to wipe their conscience clean - "we did something!" style.

But hey, ultimately as I said - the ship has sailed. Should have done that shit back in 80s or right after Tiananmen Square, but hard and for real, instead the shit that did not do anything long term.

You asked, don't blame others because you're too lazy to do it.

"What can I do, I'm just one person?"

"You can do these things."

"Fuck that, too hard... I'd rather just keep bitching and complaining."

[jonnysensible]

Start by removing all items in your household that have "Made in China" on them or their components.

this is the same thing slobs and gomps say about climate change when its clearly a structural issue needing government to tackle rather than the individual being burdened with the responsibility (because that wont work).

[Slant]

Sure thing boss, you gonna pay me to buy those "China-free" items to replace them?

When I'll be a millionaire you can ask me that, but then, I doubt it's even feasible at this point... i.e. look at the very first reply in the thread.


In the end - the solution is not with the common person, the common person does nothing wrong with buying cheap and convenient products that make sense, because much of the alternatives are good 20-30% more expensive if not much more or simply do not exist locally.

That's why these derpy replies "and what did you do to fight China" put a smile on my face. It's not your or my job to counter China and their industrial might - it's what governments are for, but they can't anymore. At best they can do this "deeply concerned" and flaccid "sanctions" to wipe their conscience clean - "we did something!" style.

But hey, ultimately as I said - the ship has sailed. Should have done that shit back in 80s, right after Tiananmen Square, but hard and for real, instead the shit that did not do anything long term.

I mean, if you want to be some President, you should go ahead with being a good example instead of holding big speeches about how you'd change things once you're in charge. It's not as easy as you think it is once you actually think about it. As you just demonstrated.

- - - Updated - - -

this is the same thing slobs and gomps say about climate change when its clearly a structural issue needing government to tackle rather than the individual being burdened with the responsibility (because that wont work).

The point is to illustrate why stuff is hard. In the end, the individual will always be the one that burdens, the state isn't actually a thing, it's a communal institution held up by all the individuals of a nation. The "Country Germany" doesn't generate actual "income" per se. It's all tax money pooled together to "manage" the country in whatever manner we see fit.

So when someone comes along and asks the Government to fix things, that's typically a) not understanding the complications of international relations, b) not understanding that the Government can't just make up stuff out of thin air and c) they are going to pay for it anyway.

Do we need a united response? Yeah sure, but not by people like him that go "put me in charge and I'll show you how..." that's Trump talk and we've all seen how much he accomplished.

[Gaidax]

I mean, if you want to be some President, you should go ahead with being a good example instead of holding big speeches about how you'd change things once you're in charge. It's not as easy as you think it is once you actually think about it. As you just demonstrated.

Where did I write I want to be a president? Oh look, a strawman, refreshing.

And yes, it's not easy, that's why I said what I said in my very first response - that ship has sailed.


Nobody in position of power can afford taking on China, all they can do now is be "deeply concerned" and slap some flaccid obligatory sanctions on a few pawns. Too little too late. EU - "We care about human rights, as long as it's some 3rd world country we can harass."

Better start learning Chinese, because in coming decade or two it will rise to be a very good skill to have.

[Shadowferal]

Does anyone really believe a... one person boycott on a business accomplishes anything? A business won't miss your nickel and dime purchase anymore than Blizz misses your account.
Now China is a bigger factor than one business. And one person boycotting them? Good luck with that.