8 dead at Atlanta Massage and Spa shootings

[Elegiac]

Wait... you have a gunman lose and you are telling me the police should drop everything to talk to one particular guy in custody

Why was he a suspect in the first place.

[Slant]

You said the cops saved him from the gunman. They didn't based on what I can tell, the gunman was already gone. The cops arriving or not didn't keep him alive, he was alive because the murderer didn't kill him before leaving.

Ok, let's rewind... cops show up at the scene, the information they have is "mass shooting, multiple dead" and they see... basically chaos. And you want them to just ignore that a gunman is running around while they sort everyone out? "Excuse me sir, could you please not continue your killing spree while we're investigating your previous spree? That would be great, we just came from lunch and.. if it's not any bother, please hold on, I've got this one witness to talk to, I'll be chasing you in just a minute, appreciate it, sir."

Nah, that's not how the world works. Especially not in the militarized US of A.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That knowledge is primarily influenced by the media, as evidenced by the structure of the NYT article. Also, numerical discrepancies aren't necessarily evidence of whatever is that people wish it to be.

"The media" didn't kill 6 asian-americans. The shooter did.

[Edge-]

And you want them to just ignore that a gunman is running around while they sort everyone out?

Are there only like...2 cops on duty or something? Are there not cops both at the scene securing it and interviewing witnesses while there are other officers that were out searching for the suspect, who they eventually found and arrested? All of which took place while this individual was still handcuffed and sitting in the back of a cop car?

Though again, you asserted the cops saved this mans life. They did no such thing, his life was spared by the shooter because I guess he wasn't an Asian woman he wanted to have sex with. Cops had nothing to do with that.

[Slant]

Are there only like...2 cops on duty or something? Are there not cops both at the scene securing it and interviewing witnesses while there are other officers that were out searching for the suspect, who they eventually found and arrested? All of which took place while this individual was still handcuffed and sitting in the back of a cop car?

Though again, you asserted the cops saved this mans life. They did no such thing, his life was spared by the shooter because I guess he wasn't an Asian woman he wanted to have sex with. Cops had nothing to do with that.

Well, you have traffic cops, they just stand around and block the streets, then you have your SWAT teams, like the USMC they're really good only at two things: shooting people and eating crayons, so you don't want to have THEM talk to anyone, then you have your management types that make sure the SWAT team doesn't gorge itself to death on crayons oh and also that they don't shoot the wrong guys... then you have your crisis teams and investigators, and THEY do all the sorting.

So, how many were there that were talking to witnesses? Probably a bunch. But I don't know how many, I don't know how many witnesses there were. If I was a cop, who would I talk to first, the guys who saw the shooter and maybe had useful information in apprehending him? Or the guy that was smart and locked himself into a room who didn't see anything? What about telling a dude his wife is dead? Maybe you'd like a psychological trauma team present? How many of those do you think run around in the area? Are there factors that you may not have considered?

Maybe you're right and this was all just bullshit oppression because... reasons. There are certainly enough bad cops on the planet to support that theoretical notion. But we're talking dozens, and dozens of police officers and either you blame them all for what must be called institutional racism and police brutality, like any precinct in the US isn't wary enough of THAT (it would also mean that these guys were idiots if that was the case)... or this is just... the logistics of large crisis events not being ideal. Long winded way of me saying: Shit happens.

All I'm saying is as long as there are plausible, boring, mundane real world alternative explanations, I don't see why you're jumping the gun on injustice so quickly. It seems so... rash compared to your usual self.

[Edge-]

Maybe you're right and this was all just bullshit oppression because... reasons.

All I'm saying is as long as there are plausible, boring, mundane real world alternative explanations, I don't see why you're jumping the gun on injustice so quickly. It seems so... rash compared to your usual self.

I'll have to double check, but my position is largely that this is a pretty questionable situation and it needs to be looked into why it played out like this. Is it racism? Quite possibly! Is it not? Also possible! But given the circumstances I think it's not a bad idea to err on the side of caution and take this individuals account seriously. I mean, he's a victim of a mass-shooting that just lost his wife, somehow I don't think he's deciding to use this moment to score national headlines to totes own the police or something. Dudes grieving.

[Slant]

By all means, take it seriously. But it sounded like you were asking for justice already, which is far from "Let's look into this" and more into the "where are the pitchforks?" territory. Maybe I misread your mood, in which case our entire discussion is probably moot. Apologies.

[Edge-]

By all means, take it seriously. But it sounded like you were asking for justice already, which is far from "Let's look into this" and more into the "where are the pitchforks?" territory. Maybe I misread your mood, in which case our entire discussion is probably moot. Apologies.

More like, "This sounds like some absolute horse shit, let's find out if it is and if it is then fuck the officers that did this."

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Maybe you'd like a psychological trauma team present? How many of those do you think run around in the area?

Just taking this particular piece of your little rant here because I'm sure that others will take you to task over the rest of it.

Having a budget for things like Psych teams is one of the things covered by "Defund the police". In a case like this one, there would be more people on hand that could be of assistance when taking statements for traumatized witnesses....which could lead to more accurate statements. Which could be very useful when it comes to tracking down the suspect and later on in the trial when the defense can't tear apart the witnesses testimony as easily.

[Slant]

More like, "This sounds like some absolute horse shit, let's find out if it is and if it is then fuck the officers that did this."

Hmm, if officers get a simple reprimand or something for killing a black dude based on... his skin color and nothing else. How likely do you think it is they'll get punished for keeping a dude in custody for four hours? Realistically speaking. I'd be surprised if this was more than an item on the debrief.

[Endus]

I didn't use it as a justification. I'm using it to give you some perspective. He survived the mass shooting. In no small part because of the cops that arrived at the scene. The same cops you hate on for having him in custody for four hours. That's it. That's what you're on about. A dude is in custody for four hours. Is it a bad look? Yeah sure, it could maybe have been handled better. But that's about the extend of a valid complaint.

You asking for JUSTICE all drama like? That's out of line. And you know it.

Nah.

What amounts to "justice" here is probably just a nice settlement by the PD after he sues them. Which he probably should. Because that's how things work; there are no recourses for citizens to address police overreach other than lawsuits and settlements, so they should be filed a hell of a lot more often than they are.

If that bankrupts police departments, maybe they should stop crossing lines with such frightening regularity. If they aren't, then it's not a problem in the first place.

You have a very weak argument of being upset about not knowing the fate of your wife and sitting in car for four hours. AT THE SCENE OF A MASS SHOOTING EVENT.

This is an appeal to emotion, not a rational argument.

The reality is there were plenty of officers on hand, and one could have been spared to talk to the guy and clear him. If they did think he was connected, it would have been absolutely critical to get his account, find out how many perpetrators there were, etc. If they didn't, why was he detained at all? Letting him stew for 4 hours demonstrates they didn't think he had critical information relevant to the situation.

And let's be clear; this man was a victim of this mass shooting event. And was treated this way. If you want to appeal to emotion over the level of violence and danger, that should argue in the guy's favor, not the PD's.

Maybe, if Elegiac is not rational enough to see it, you can concede that the police's first job is to secure the scene, get the injured sorted out, make sure no idiot justice warrior tramples all over the evidence trying to film the shit with his go pro and then get to talking to every witness individually and sort out who's a good guy and who's a bad guy. Shooters can have complices, you know...

And yet, they clearly didn't think this guy was one of them, since they didn't think to ask him about any of that.

You're not wrong about how concerned police should have been. The problem is that concern does not line up with letting this guy stew for 4 hours before letting him go.

Amazingly, the cops can't do that all at once.

You'll note you said "cops", plural. They absolutely can do all that at once. Or were they short-staffed that day? Pretty sure Atlanta could have enough officers on-site to handle things properly.

That you haven't seen similar reports doesn't mean that other people haven't been treated the same. That's a big assumption on your part. If I had been there and nobody I loved had been killed, I'd have chilled for four hours and processed the entire information and not go to the fucking TV camera about it. So are you REALLY sure you want to call for heads over this?

Why not?

If there's any chance the officers didn't behave appropriately, the PD should get sued, in an ideal world. In reality, this often doesn't happen because of police threats, the cost of filing a lawsuit, and so on. But in terms of justice and such? Absolutely, the officers should be sued. 1000%. Doesn't mean the courts will agree they crossed the line, but they should face that possibility before the courts.

If they can't handle that, maybe don't pull questionable bullshit in the first place. Detaining this guy served no purpose, and they clearly didn't think he had anything helpful to say regarding what was going on, since they didn't even bother questioning him.

[Slant]

Nah.

What amounts to "justice" here is probably just a nice settlement by the PD after he sues them. Which he probably should. Because that's how things work; there are no recourses for citizens to address police overreach other than lawsuits and settlements, so they should be filed a hell of a lot more often than they are.

If that bankrupts police departments, maybe they should stop crossing lines with such frightening regularity. If they aren't, then it's not a problem in the first place.



This is an appeal to emotion, not a rational argument.

The reality is there were plenty of officers on hand, and one could have been spared to talk to the guy and clear him. If they did think he was connected, it would have been absolutely critical to get his account, find out how many perpetrators there were, etc. If they didn't, why was he detained at all? Letting him stew for 4 hours demonstrates they didn't think he had critical information relevant to the situation.

And let's be clear; this man was a victim of this mass shooting event. And was treated this way. If you want to appeal to emotion over the level of violence and danger, that should argue in the guy's favor, not the PD's.

And yet, they clearly didn't think this guy was one of them, since they didn't think to ask him about any of that.

You're not wrong about how concerned police should have been. The problem is that concern does not line up with letting this guy stew for 4 hours before letting him go.

You'll note you said "cops", plural. They absolutely can do all that at once. Or were they short-staffed that day? Pretty sure Atlanta could have enough officers on-site to handle things properly.

Why not?

If there's any chance the officers didn't behave appropriately, the PD should get sued, in an ideal world. In reality, this often doesn't happen because of police threats, the cost of filing a lawsuit, and so on. But in terms of justice and such? Absolutely, the officers should be sued. 1000%. Doesn't mean the courts will agree they crossed the line, but they should face that possibility before the courts.

If they can't handle that, maybe don't pull questionable bullshit in the first place. Detaining this guy served no purpose, and they clearly didn't think he had anything helpful to say regarding what was going on, since they didn't even bother questioning him.

Not an emotional argument. Based on how police operates, first order of business, securing the area, self protection, ending the shooting, second priority treating the injured, third priority securing evidence that is likely to vanish soon, think blood on a day when it's about to rain. And THEN comes the stuff that isn't likely to fade away.

These things have an order and sometimes some people wait longer than you'd expect. What y'all are implying is malice... and 4 hours is really not enough for me to call malice. It's enough for me to maybe suggest incompetence at organising stuff, but we're going in circles here. An investigation is going to happen, I'm sure of it. If nothing else the TV cameras will make sure of it.

I've lost interest in this, I'ma wait for the next shooting to happen, should be about time now, shouldn't it?

[Endus]

Not an emotional argument. Based on how police operates, first order of business, securing the area, self protection, ending the shooting, second priority treating the injured, third priority securing evidence that is likely to vanish soon, think blood on a day when it's about to rain. And THEN comes the stuff that isn't likely to fade away.

These things have an order and sometimes some people wait longer than you'd expect. What y'all are implying is malice... and 4 hours is really not enough for me to call malice. It's enough for me to maybe suggest incompetence at organising stuff, but we're going in circles here. An investigation is going to happen, I'm sure of it. If nothing else the TV cameras will make sure of it.

I've lost interest in this, I'ma wait for the next shooting to happen, should be about time now, shouldn't it?

No, what I'm arguing is that if this guy was detained because they thought he was connected, then resolving that by questioning him would have been part of Priority One, in your list.

And if he wasn't detained for that reason, why the fuck was he detained?

And yes; we're suggesting malice. Callous indifference is malice. It's not a high bar, it just requires that the cops knew he wasn't a suspect and detained him for hours anyway.

If you want to argue it was just incompetence; that the officers detained him for no good reason and then plumb forgot about him, by all means. But that's still grounds to fire the officers and for the guy to sue the pants off the PD.

[Slant]

No, what I'm arguing is that if this guy was detained because they thought he was connected, then resolving that by questioning him would have been part of Priority One, in your list.

And if he wasn't detained for that reason, why the fuck was he detained?

And yes; we're suggesting malice. Callous indifference is malice. It's not a high bar, it just requires that the cops knew he wasn't a suspect and detained him for hours anyway.

If you want to argue it was just incompetence; that the officers detained him for no good reason and then plumb forgot about him, by all means. But that's still grounds to fire the officers and for the guy to sue the pants off the PD.

"Hi, sir, are you the shooter?" - "Uh, no." - "Okay, you seem honest, I will let you go!"

That's not the best strategy in policing. Y'all are simplifying this a bit too much. Questioning someone isn't really the most effective method at determine if he's a bad guy. Surprise, most bad guys will say no initially. It's a waste of time if you need information quickly. Questioning takes time. A lot of time. If he is a bad guy, then the worst they do is waste time looking for someone who they already have. If he's not a bad guy, the worst that happens is that he gets detained for a few hours.

Let's turn that around, let's assume they do what you say... he says he's not the bad guy, they believe him, because apparently you think the police always believes what people say and let him go. Two scenarios: He's a good guy, everyone's happy except... who knows, he might still talk to the camera and complain about waiting an hour instead of four, who knows. Or he's the bad guy and gets to run away another day. Best worst case scenario, worst worst case scenario, he grabs his other weaposn and continues shooting somewhere else... Well done, your headline now reads "Police release perpetrator who moves on to kill 10 more people."

That's not even an outrageous claim. That has happened before. Police "question" guys all the time and then let them go. And many times those guys are actually a danger to society. THIS is the cautious approach.

Fire the officers? For this? Have you any sense of proportionality? I get it, police brutality is a thing, and racism is a thing. But what's also is a thing is good cop morale being at an all time low, because they are being demonized and vilified to a point where people like you ask for their jobs, because they let a dude wait 4 instead of 1 hour... sure. All of the guys in uniform have nothing better to do than pull a prank on that dude. They got together and said, hey, next mass shooting, we're gonna prank one of the Mexicans and let him sit in the car for four hours, omg that's hilarious.

Yeah, very likely...

[Edge-]

"Hi, sir, are you the shooter?" - "Uh, no." - "Okay, you seem honest, I will let you go!"

I don't think anyone believes it's such a simple process, but I think it's also pretty reasonable to believe it doesn't take 4 hours, either.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That's not the best strategy in policing. Y'all are simplifying this a bit too much. Questioning someone isn't really the most effective method at determine if he's a bad guy. Surprise, most bad guys will say no initially. It's a waste of time if you need information quickly. Questioning takes time. A lot of time. If he is a bad guy, then the worst they do is waste time looking for someone who they already have. If he's not a bad guy, the worst that happens is that he gets detained for a few hours.

Then they should have brought him back to the station to actually question him instead of just locking him in a car and ignoring him for 4 hours.

Let's turn that around, let's assume they do what you say... he says he's not the bad guy, they believe him, because apparently you think the police always believes what people say and let him go.

Well, they believed the actual shooter when he said "oh no...I'm not a racist...I just killed 6 asian women because I'm a sex addict".

Two scenarios: He's a good guy, everyone's happy except... who knows, he might still talk to the camera and complain about waiting an hour instead of four, who knows.

Being worried someone might complain to the press about how long you held them for after clearing them as a suspect is not an acceptable reason to hold someone even longer.

Or he's the bad guy and gets to run away another day. Best worst case scenario, worst worst case scenario, he grabs his other weaposn and continues shooting somewhere else... Well done, your headline now reads "Police release perpetrator who moves on to kill 10 more people."

Again, if they thought he could be the actual shooter...they should have been interrogating him back at the station...because if he actually is the shooter they've just given him more time to get his story straight.

Fire the officers? For this? Have you any sense of proportionality? I get it, police brutality is a thing, and racism is a thing. But what's also is a thing is good cop morale being at an all time low, because they are being demonized and vilified to a point where people like you ask for their jobs,

Kind of sick of hearing about how low cop morale is because people are finally starting to want them to be held accountable for their abuses.

Tired of people not trusting you? Here's a solution... maybe start acting like you are worthy of their trust.

[Slant]

I don't think anyone believes it's such a simple process, but I think it's also pretty reasonable to believe it doesn't take 4 hours, either.

Reading through some translations of the interview that I watched, cos I can't speak Spanish, apparently they told him about his wife as soon as they found out he was the husband. And he says he was treated badly, but from the text of it, he wasn't really complaining about the 4 hours. Maybe lost in translation...

[Grimbold21]

"The media" didn't kill 6 asian-americans. The shooter did.

True, but the media presents the knowledge within a certain framework, which may lead to the reader down to a certain conclusion.

[Slant]

Then they should have brought him back to the station to actually question him instead of just locking him in a car and ignoring him for 4 hours.



Well, they believed the actual shooter when he said "oh no...I'm not a racist...I just killed 6 asian women because I'm a sex addict".



Being worried someone might complain to the press about how long you held them for after clearing them as a suspect is not an acceptable reason to hold someone even longer.



Again, if they thought he could be the actual shooter...they should have been interrogating him back at the station...because if he actually is the shooter they've just given him more time to get his story straight.



Kind of sick of hearing about how low cop morale is because people are finally starting to want them to be held accountable for their abuses.

Tired of people not trusting you? Here's a solution... maybe start acting like you are worthy of their trust.

Ah, the superior judgment of hindsight. We should let the reddit crowd run the planet. They seem to have the best ideas. And they know everything. It's amazing how they are not already ruling the planet with their superior knowledge.

[s_bushido]

Fire the officers? For this? Have you any sense of proportionality? I get it, police brutality is a thing, and racism is a thing. But what's also is a thing is good cop morale being at an all time low, because they are being demonized and vilified to a point where people like you ask for their jobs, because they let a dude wait 4 instead of 1 hour... sure.

It's always fascinating to hear that people think police should be held to a lower standard than the general public. Like...you realize that stuff like kidnapping someone for 4 hours and facing no repercussions for it is exactly why police are "demonized"...right?