Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[erifwodahs]

What they really ought to do is just have combat text that pops up and lets people know they suck. Explicitly giving people a ranking really robs the illusion that they're character is powerful so why not just cut the shit and just tell people straight up how awful they are because embracing raider io is doing exactly that.

What do you think arena rating is?
No, raider io tells people what experience they have. It does not make you shit, if you don't do m+. There are plenty 10/10M who never go beyond 1.3k score. It would be cool if there was in-game combat analyzer for very basic stuff (downtime/missed GCDs, time spent with cooldowns ready, avoidable damage taken).
Built in rio ladder would be nice, instead of having to update addon and rely on 3rd party ranking system while you could have your "arena rating" but for PvE.

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Its clearly a prestige system that got a high value in the active playing community.

My only issue with R.IO is that it does not punish FOTM / META slaves. M+ balance is questionable and blizzard doesnt touch mid-expansion balance even if its as stupid as right now with random AOE uncapped classes also competing/dominating in single target DPS at the same time.
Some kind of reroll/meta "tax" would be required to make the metric more fitting for this MMO.

The game was usually balanced against FOTM waves with long content progressions and timegating till the end of the expansion, so players had to consider if they really wanted to reroll every season/few months and deal with the disadvantage. Blizzards mid-expansion and mid-content class tunings are gone since LEGION and FOTM / META tourists are not only tolerated but even rewarded by R.IO.

I mean.. I don't think FotM is required until you start doing 22+. At which point you are equivalent of top 100 mythic raider. At that point you play what is the best because it's your goal to go what is beyond. Trust me, i'm a paladin doing 20s now, my class suck at tanking currently, I really don't expect going above 22s and I am actively looking for not FotM players to fill my groups in, because FotM players, while mostly are good doing dmg, but they are far more prone to sucking at using utility. A good druid or a good fire mage is not only "I go booooom" and it is really really significant. I did a +19 DoS the other day with survival hunter. Most limiting factors for me are - we need quick CR and BL. also my healer is melee, so I can only take another melee. Those are the things that suck. You would certainly shake meta a quite a bit if all healers had CR and few more classes could get BL effect added or drums un-nerfed.

[Echocho]

My only issue with R.IO is that it does not punish FOTM / META slaves. .

My biggest issue is that if you don't get in on week one as a pugger you're not getting in for the entire expansion unless you pay for a carry run.

[Ange]

I mean.. I don't think FotM is required until you start doing 22+.

Not REQUIRED but I was talking about PUNISHING every other class.
The metric does not take into consideration if you are the 500./SERVER-BEST-DH with R.IO 1400 or if you are the 10./SERVER-BEST-PALADIN with R.IO 1400.
Lets forget how easy is to get into groups as META in the first place.

The required part for FoTM is irrelevant, because the community perception and how easy is it to get into groups impacts your rating and it is not accounted for in the metric at all.

[Tadkins]

I mean.. I don't think FotM is required until you start doing 22+. At which point you are equivalent of top 100 mythic raider. At that point you play what is the best because it's your goal to go what is beyond. Trust me, i'm a paladin doing 20s now, my class suck at tanking currently, I really don't expect going above 22s and I am actively looking for not FotM players to fill my groups in, because FotM players, while mostly are good doing dmg, but they are far more prone to sucking at using utility. A good druid or a good fire mage is not only "I go booooom" and it is really really significant. I did a +19 DoS the other day with survival hunter. Most limiting factors for me are - we need quick CR and BL. also my healer is melee, so I can only take another melee. Those are the things that suck. You would certainly shake meta a quite a bit if all healers had CR and few more classes could get BL effect added or drums un-nerfed.

I do worry, if/when I come back to the game, about being wanted my a M+ group as a warlock. After all why invite a warlock when a fire mage of equal or greater skill level/score is available? Not to mention, because warlocks are apparently great at raids, excluding the class from M+ seems to be a heralded and celebrated thing when they complain, judging by this thread.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ss-which-class

[ippollite]

This already exists with item level, PvP ratings, and Rio itself. Hiding the score behind an addon isn't helping players, it's hindering them. It's all publicly available info with the armoury, so if a group maker wanted to find it out they could. Rio just simplifies the process.

But it doesn't function well. Players can continually tank their pvp rating for example to sell carries. What im thinking is something more... crypto permanent (regarding exclusively using lfd). Lfg can remain the wild west. What it could do in the way im describing it is undermine the 'we need vetting!' Issues (which is the primary justification these higher end features remain locked behind player controlled systems (lfg)). Again, in PVP, your pvp rating can easily be tanked... but your raiderio (based on achievements, previous ratings and gear throughout your inventory system), will be far harder to tank. So those who choose to rated pvp via this score (through LFD... i mean, er, solo queue) will be much more likely to meet other players at the same level in the correct bracket.

By giving players a baked in io score based on their personal accomplishments in that content, blizzard has more means to appropriately gate access and allow players struggling to be invited to mythic dungeons an avenue to garner access Through dungeon finder.

Does that make sense? to me its much closer in line with Blizzard's original idea of what mythic dungeons were supposed to do: Every player finds their level. The problem with the system as it currently stands is that a large chunk of players are completely disincentivized partaking in it purely on the basis that it's player controlled (or rather, theres a degree of judgement and a high skill expectation (even in lower keys) they're uncomfortable with).

And again, to be clear, there are a few ways we can do this (even assuming that we dont change LFG in any way): We can run it completely parallel with LFG, we can even hardcap it at a certain level (lets say 10). The point is that we give players an avenue into the content and the reward systems therein (upgradeable gear, valor, and the great vault), we let them accomplish their goals, practice in a less 'expectant' environment (where you dont kill someones key), then once they hit a certain threshold (even if its over generous, or over wary), unlock higher ranks. Personally i'd like it to hit prideful since thats a knowledge/level jump in itself, and you kinda dont want a double barrier if you can help it. But i appreciate that it might lead to calls for nerfs (since its a big skill jump knowing, planning and sharing routes), so lock it down at 9 if you must. The point is...

Remember that Preach video a year or so ago about buckets? Thats the point. You get as many people as you can into the bucket.

[erifwodahs]

Not REQUIRED but I was talking about PUNISHING every other class.
The metric does not take into consideration if you are the 500./SERVER-BEST-DH with R.IO 1400 or if you are the 10./SERVER-BEST-PALADIN with R.IO 1400.
Lets forget how easy is to get into groups as META in the first place.

The required part for FoTM is irrelevant, because the community perception and how easy is it to get into groups impacts your rating and it is not accounted for in the metric at all.

1400 rio shows that you have done X dungeon on Y difficulty - experience. Nothing else should matter. Otherwise it will loose the "at the glance" speed of creating groups. Way bigger problem is that every key I create gets A LOT of sign ups. I was pugging my NW 20 yesterday. I had over 30 dps to sign up for that in couple of minutes. I have no need to invite a 1.8k warlock, I can literally tailor my group for our needs and pick really good score players. If there were like 6 sign ups, that warlock would certainly be more attractive, due to having CR and solid dmg + healthstones or a shadow priest, or a frost mage, I love those guys, not on sang weeks, but in general. With 6 sign ups I could have a better look at those players and pick based on that, but now I have to use a quick filter to go through 30+ sign ups. Doing a +15 for weekly gets me 100-150 sign ups in less than 3 minutes. That is the real problem.
I do understand that people at lower rating use it to gatekeep people and for some odd reason think that they need a fire mage to do a +15 in time, but you won't fix it by getting some "FOTM tax", which would deffo punish alt lowers if it was some sort of in-game disadvantage, or removing rio.

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I do worry, if/when I come back to the game, about being wanted my a M+ group as a warlock. After all why invite a warlock when a fire mage of equal or greater skill level/score is available? Not to mention, because warlocks are apparently great at raids, excluding the class from M+ seems to be a heralded and celebrated thing when they complain, judging by this thread.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ss-which-class

Well, again, problem is, that you will get people who have better score than you. It's inevitable with 50+ sign ups. If it was was mage vs warlock with same score and I already had BL, I would pick warlock if you had acceptable appropriate experience i.e. not signing up for +19 SD while your top SD is 16 while mage has done 18. I do understand some people don't care about that and equate score to being good, but there is a bit more to what addon provides.
Also that thread which you linked is exactly that. +15s get so many sign ups it's unreal. 1.5k score would probably would not get into to 20 during prime time

[Thelyron]

No one should ever have the same thing as someone else without putting in the same effort. This goes for everything in life.

[Tronski]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

Because in WoW there's actually very few skilled people. Instead, the "hardcore" put in excessive amounts of time in order to get good gear to compensate for skill, so that they can kill bosses that were difficult when they were released. This in turn gives them an illusion of superiority and skills, when it's really just time and dedication = gear.

That's why it hurts so much for them. When casual players get the same gear for less work, that also means they get to kill the same bosses with less time investment. This is seen as unfair for the gatekeepers, because they suffer from the impression that you have to deserve access to harder bosses.

[ellieg]

I do worry, if/when I come back to the game, about being wanted my a M+ group as a warlock. After all why invite a warlock when a fire mage of equal or greater skill level/score is available? Not to mention, because warlocks are apparently great at raids, excluding the class from M+ seems to be a heralded and celebrated thing when they complain, judging by this thread.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ss-which-class

You will not get invites as a lock. Youll do some +3, complain that it's too hard, encounter 1 toxic person and come to the forums posting about not being allowed to play wow and how you guess this game jist isn't meant for players like you. The responses will be telling you to create your own group like almost every other player has to do at some point, and you'll talk about how you dont have friends and can't use the lfg tool. Then you'll go on for 40 pages not really coming to any conclusion.

Here's a hint, even fire mages get declined for groups. They might be more meta than warlocks, but there's also way more of them. The 220 1350 rio mage is also competing against the 225 1800 rio mage.

[Kaver]

My biggest issue is that if you don't get in on week one as a pugger you're not getting in for the entire expansion unless you pay for a carry run.

Bullshit.

You just play your own key. It might require a little bit of effort and patience, but it will definitely get you there.

[erifwodahs]

Here's a hint, even fire mages get declined for groups. They might be more meta than warlocks, but there's also way more of them. The 220 1350 rio mage is also competing against the 225 1800 rio mage.

This. All my keys have 20+ dps signing up with score which mostly varies from 1.6k to 1.9k. A lot of sign ups are meta. Even healers, you get 10 healers to sign up for a decent key. Until blizzard reworks tanking to appeal to general masses - it will be a problem. And even then, it won't be as liked because of "leading" aspect of the game. I find it easier to tank on higher keys with good players, but most of people won't get into that level where dps actually start to support you and tanking start to become a nice challenge instead of stressing about if "is there someone monitoring collector casts in NW" while being raped by damn abomination at the same time. Damn, even then, some 1.9k-2.0k players forget that they can use damn knockbacks to push mobs out of sanguine. Up until you reach 17s-18s you are mostly alone as a tank in the pug world, you get odd player who is mvp but that's about it.

[Tadkins]

Well, again, problem is, that you will get people who have better score than you.

Right, and therein lies the flaw of raiderio imo. If I'm being a good boy, playing by the system and doing every single +2 before attempting +3s, that is still no guarantee that I will get in. Because even if that would qualify me I am still competing against those who might have done higher. I just feel like there is no winning.

[Gaidax]

Get ur grubby hands off muh precious loot!

Precious!

[ellieg]

Right, and therein lies the flaw of raiderio imo. If I'm being a good boy, playing by the system and doing every single +2 before attempting +3s, that is still no guarantee that I will get in. Because even if that would qualify me I am still competing against those who might have done higher. I just feel like there is no winning.

The cool thing about the m+ system, is that you'll have your own key.

[erifwodahs]

Right, and therein lies the flaw of raiderio imo. If I'm being a good boy, playing by the system and doing every single +2 before attempting +3s, that is still no guarantee that I will get in. Because even if that would qualify me I am still competing against those who might have done higher. I just feel like there is no winning.

It's a flaw of life, not rio.
Raiding is the same.
Taekwondo is the same
Job is the same
Football is the same

Some people get a headstart in time and you need to work extra to catchup. Shorcut to rio is - friends, same as in real life, they can boost you to a position you think you should be and from there you either take off yourself, crash down or are getting carried by others. It's all very... cheesy? but that's how this works. It's not rio.

[Santti]

56 pages? People seem to care a little bit too much, what others are wearing, if you ask me. The reward structure is pretty much the same it has been since forever. Get over yourselves.

It’s not supposed to be equal, and making it so every person can achieve the same reward, no matter the content, is what’s ruining WoW, imo.

Sure. But that's never been a thing in WoW, though? Well, except for the few choice pieces, here and there. Like the legendaries from Legion. A small expansion gimmick.

[Dazmalak]

I’m very casual in WoW, but I still think the best loot should only be obtainable by players that do the higher level content. Their hard work is being rewarding and that’s how it should remain.

It’s not supposed to be equal, and making it so every person can achieve the same reward, no matter the content, is what’s ruining WoW, imo.

I agree for the most part, but I think the bigger issue that causes all the fuss is the amount of gear disparity less so than the gear simply being better. Having a stretch of 20+ ilvl difference in content is, imo, too much. I think if they shrunk that gap to say 15 or 10 ilvl, the outcry and arguments would lessen. Better players still get better gear, but casuals can still get a foot in the door to compete or try to make up for a lack of skill with gear. This could also help with the ridiculous scaling issues we see from gear inflation and the power disparity you see.

Top end guilds and players are already beating high end content without having BiS and overgearing the content, so the gap isn't going to affect them that much.

I'd say get rid of LFR and heroic raiding. Especially if LFR gear is going to be less than what you can get from world quests. (Or just make LFR gear cosmetic as an incentive to run it...which is sort of what they've already done given how the ilvls are, but would be better if they dropped items like rings and necks that you can't see on your character from the loot list).

Incidentally I would think this also tightens the ability for devs to actually balance classes and specs, which benefits everyone in PvE and PvP.

To me this is a "happy medium". Can't give everyone what they want, but there's room for compromise.

[Santti]

I remember getting some high level world drop items in BFA, as well as high PVP rewards just by doing random BGs after I saved up enough conquest.

I don’t think that should be a thing.

Meh. Something that has existed since Vanilla. Or at least BC. Hardly something that's "ruining WoW".

[kaminaris]

I mean, I remember PvPing in MoP, and iirc, conquest gear was only available if you did rated BGs, not randoms. Now you can get conquest just by winning randoms.

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And drops like that in Vanilla and TBC weren’t exactly common. Now, given enough time, you can gear your entire character with high level items through world content.

You also forgot that casual pvp gear vs rated gear didn't double your damage like now.

So item levels are absolutely irrelevant, what is relevant is relative player power. Going from 190->210 gave me like 30-50% more dps. This wasn't the case up until WoD (or the first squish in MoP).

[Flurryfang]

Haven't we had this discussion like 100 times before?

Seems like there are just 2 sides to gearing, which can not be consoled or joined together.