Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[s_bushido]

"He's got a gun to his head! I'm gonna shoot him!"

JFC...

That's not even the best part:

On Friday, activists gathered outside the sheriff’s office where Sheriff Roger Harris made a brief statement.

"I support you. I support the cause. When you see the video, the deputy actually saved this gentleman’s life," Harris said.

[Mayhem]

To play devil's advocate; someone who would ride a bike on the road would need to understand the road rules.

It's still pretty fucking dumb though

So they require something from kids on bikes that adults with cars aren't required to have?

mhm mhm checks out

[gondrin]

2 whole percent?! Wow...

That's something to read properly a bit later on. But holy shit, that's monstrously low.

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It is where I come from. It's kids seeking excitement, no matter how stupid it may be. And they're not actually so stupid as to end up killing themselves, despite how close you think they may have been to doing so.

Then again, I'm not in the US, so my view may be different. Given what cops in the US can be like, I'd probably try follow every law I could when they're around. Don't fancy getting shot if I look at them the wrong way.

In the US, if you go over left of center for any reason on an active roadway(a road that can accessible to the public and can reasonably expect traffic) is a crime. The moment these kids did this(on purpose) and proceed to do it while going into oncoming traffic is an actual serious offense. If a motorcycle rider did this, they would, at the minimum, lose their license and possibly have jailtime.

I'm going to say this, what if these kids were 16 and driving in a vehicle? Would it still be kids being kids seeking excitement? What if a person driving a car swerved out of the way of one of these kids and hit someone coming the opposite direction? Would that still be kids being kids seeking excitement?

Don't get me wrong, I've done some dumb stuff and "kids being kids" stuff when I was growing up. One thing I didn't do is ride a bike into oncoming traffic as I learned at a young age that a big thing made of metal coming at me at even a reasonable speed(25 mph or greater(40 km/h or greater)) could kill me easily.

Now, this isn't directed just to you. This is directed to everyone that is making excuses for something that can end very badly.

[Endus]

In the US, if you go over left of center for any reason on an active roadway(a road that can accessible to the public and can reasonably expect traffic) is a crime.

Given that doing so is often necessary just in the course of normal driving, because of cars blocking roadways, dotted yellow lines allowing passing, evading collisions, and so on, I'm pretty sure you've got this completely wrong.

Not saying these kids were bicycling safely, but contesting that "any reason" you included there.

[gondrin]

Every one of those areas I saw were residential, or on the edge of residential. Like, nothing where the speed limit is anywhere above 35mph usually.

Also, where was the "chicken"? I mean, they rode around some cars, and made some dangerous maneuvers while trying to get away from the police who were following them. You got a timestamp?

Here is a video of the damage a car can do to something at 25 mph. Just because something isn't going fast doesn't mean it won't do serious damage.



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Given that doing so is often necessary just in the course of normal driving, because of cars blocking roadways, dotted yellow lines allowing passing, evading collisions, and so on, I'm pretty sure you've got this completely wrong.

Not saying these kids were bicycling safely, but contesting that "any reason" you included there.

You are right in some exceptions but I'm talking about general road usage without those exceptions. If you can show any cars blocking their path that are stopped that would require it, feel free. Also, you have to stop, use your turn signal or some sort of signal to message you are going around and only go when traffic is free and clear on the other side. None of which these kids did. You cannot go left of center whenever you please and you cannot do this while there is traffic coming in the lane FOR ANY REASON. Please stop making excuses for something that should have gotten their parents a ticket as their parents are their guardians. While parents can't watch their kids all the time(I come from a single parent home so I know this from personal experience), they should still be held responsible for what their kids do.

Also, you conveniently cut out the part of asking what if someone is on a motorcycle and did what these kids did? What if a 16 year old driving a car did what these kids did? What if one of the people driving got freaked out seeing someone coming at them and to get out of their way hit someone else? Would you still be saying the same thing?

[Themius]

Yup, cops mostly just serve as the lapdogs for government to enforce stuff such as speeding tickets, parking violations, environmental violations (building permits), basically everything that squeezes money out of the pockets from common people on the streets. Solving or preventing actual violent crimes is too much to ask.

That's why I've been rolling my eyes for the past decade every time someone tried to argue that without cops I'd be crying if I got robbed or that there'd be much more murders... Cops are going to do jackshit if you're getting robbed or murdered, besides showing up 2 hours later and write a report about it.

This is why beat cops can essentially be eradicated and replaced with more of the already unarmed traffic people.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yup, cops mostly just serve as the lapdogs for government to enforce stuff such as speeding tickets, parking violations, environmental violations (building permits), basically everything that squeezes money out of the pockets from common people on the streets. Solving or preventing actual violent crimes is too much to ask.

This is probably the most "rural white conservative" take I've ever seen on police. Can't say I've ever had any of these problems, then again I rarely go above 5 over the speed limit and I certainly don't park where I shouldn't be parking. And police don't even handle business violations and stuff, that's other government agencies.

True enough police have a hard time preventing crime, but that's mostly because crimes happen within a few seconds to a couple of minutes, and how far away do you think actual patrol cars are? And yes, as far as solving crimes that's usually police detectives or just straight up detectives. Positions are massively underfunded. Police in general are massively underfunded. That's why they get such ass training in the US. Many are literally taught to shoot first "because their lives might be on the line" rather than assessing the situation and seeing that the guy was holding a phone/car keys/child's toy/potato.

African Americans are entirely distrusting and resentful of police for an entirely different reason than "Ugh, they only exist to give me tickets!" They're the communities that get patrolled 24/7 and people will get arrested and/or shot for minor violations. Back before weed became more of a legal thing across the country, half the white people I knew smoked pot and none of the black people did because they feel they are constantly under surveillance for any minor thing that could possibly get them in trouble and jail time and/or shot.

But this isn't the first time I've heard "They suck because they might give me a ticket", I've heard it plenty of times. From those same white conservatives that like to whine about the government. "They should be off preventing or solving crimes" guess what? You speeding 20 over or parking in a handicapped spot IS a minor offense that is AGAINST THE LAW. For a party that constantly whines about how "undocumented immigration is against the law, and since it's against the law it should be strictly enforced!" and other verbal diarrhea about being the party of law and order, they certainly don't like it when their own law breaking is inconvenienced by a ticket or a fine.

[luc54]

Wheelies? Is there a law against wheelies? Oh no a bunch of kids riding bikes what a horror... Did you read the story? There are parks in several areas that make riding bikes illegal, and we don't even have proper bike lanes in most of the state. Instead of punishing kids for riding their bikes maybe the solution is to make areas bikable?

And confiscating bikes for not having a licence?

It's not just doing wheelies but weaving just before oncoming traffic and no it was before cops were chasing them. The whole reason why the whole response happened when they were behaving like that. I wouldn't care if they had stayed on the correct side of the road and actually tried to avoid traffic.

You could watch the other videos from the channel and see they do have some biking areas where they can go for biking. They also seem to be doing inside malls which is absolutely baffling and good thing they kicked out. I'm sorry but he has very little disregard for safety of himself and others. I don't think he is that young either. I don't think such behaviour should be excused as kids being kids. Teenagers should be old enough not to behave in a way that doesn't endager others like that. Granted many adults don't either but I'm not giving them free pass either. Drunk / reckless drivers can go to hell.

The lisence part here just seems to be just way for city to squeeze more money for the city from the looks of it as they have encoded in their law. Here's the link: https://ecode360.com/35010415 Seems pretty bs to me.

[Elegiac]

Police in general are massively underfunded.

No, they aren't. What's underfunded is non-policing services that actually would address the crime rate rather than pouring more money into the police pit and then excusing them for being bad at their jobs because society has told us police are a good thing.

You speeding 20 over or parking in a handicapped spot IS a minor offense that is AGAINST THE LAW.

Because as we all know, minor offenses have never been made offenses so as to justify overpolicing. This is a bad argument when we do not have anything resembling a shortage of law enforcement.

[Endus]

Police in general are massively underfunded.

Yeah, this is wildly incorrect.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/world...ntl/index.html

Among developed nations, the USA spends the second-most per-capita, and the only one spending more is Luxemburg, and that's true mostly due to economies of scale; Luxemburg is a tiny, tiny country. As a percentage of GDP, the USA easily tops the comparison, spending 5.3% of GDP on policing, more than anyone else.

The problem isn't funding. It's that the funding gets spent on all the wrong things; it gets spent on unnecessary military equipment, on training programs like warrior training and Killology that are basically grifts that push the diametrically wrong attitudes, and so forth. That money gets shuffled into ensuring that American cops are over-armed and deliberately under-trained, expecting to provoke exactly the violence they initiate, which is why resistance to "fixing" police departments and police culture meets so much resistance. Because it is not remotely accidental. It's behaving exactly as it was intended to.

[Santti]

Yeah, this is wildly incorrect.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/world...ntl/index.html

Among developed nations, the USA spends the second-most per-capita, and the only one spending more is Luxemburg, and that's true mostly due to economies of scale; Luxemburg is a tiny, tiny country. As a percentage of GDP, the USA easily tops the comparison, spending 5.3% of GDP on policing, more than anyone else.

The problem isn't funding. It's that the funding gets spent on all the wrong things; it gets spent on unnecessary military equipment, on training programs like warrior training and Killology that are basically grifts that push the diametrically wrong attitudes, and so forth. That money gets shuffled into ensuring that American cops are over-armed and deliberately under-trained, expecting to provoke exactly the violence they initiate, which is why resistance to "fixing" police departments and police culture meets so much resistance. Because it is not remotely accidental. It's behaving exactly as it was intended to.

Yes, although I think it should be mentioned, that in the United States, the police have seemingly been handed way too many responsibilities. With that in mind, maybe they are slightly underfunded? I don't know, just guessing here.

But yeah, the obvious answer to that is not to increase the funding, to train them to handle all the societal ills, but to cut their responsibilities, and hand them to other, possibly brand new, agencies. This is what "Defund the Police" aimed for.

[Elegiac]

Yes, although I think it should be mentioned, that in the United States, the police have seemingly been handed way too many responsibilities. With that in mind, maybe they are slightly underfunded? I don't know, just guessing here.

That would imply that if they had sufficient funding they would be able to handle those responsibilities adequately and humanely, which is also incorrect. The problem is not just how much money they have - it's also that the institution of policing as it is understood is fundamentally unjust.

[Endus]

Yes, although I think it should be mentioned, that in the United States, the police have seemingly been handed way too many responsibilities. With that in mind, maybe they are slightly underfunded? I don't know, just guessing here.

But yeah, the obvious answer to that is not to increase the funding, to train them to handle all the societal ills, but to cut their responsibilities, and hand them to other, possibly brand new, agencies. This is what "Defund the Police" aimed for.

The issue with the many-hats thing isn't so much the funding, it's the mentality. You don't want a police mentality going into issues like mental health checks and such. It isn't that cops aren't paid enough to handle it, it's that they're trained to be abusively awful at it when they make the attempt.

[Santti]

That would imply that if they had sufficient funding they would be able to handle those responsibilities adequately and humanely, which is also incorrect. The problem is not just how much money they have - it's also that the institution of policing as it is understood is fundamentally unjust.

Yes. Also, no. What I was aiming for, is that training them to do it all, to begin with, is nonsensical. They are always going to end up being "jack of all trades" at best, even if funding gets substantially increased (and properly allocated for the training).

I've no idea how to even start with fixing the police culture. A simple shifts in responsibilities and funding won't do much at all.

[Bakis]

These stood out to me when reading a Washington Post analysis of why US law enforcement does such a poor job in many instances compared to other western nations.

Longer than inadequate 19 months average training (3 years in EU on average for example)
Teach de-escalation in a meaningful manner (which often is non-existant / symbolic few hours due to county budget reasons)

Also, I along with many others are getting really tired of reading about police interaction with a suspect about a misdemeanor ending in a fatal shooting (or a "Floyd") when the suspect did not have a weapon or even worse didn't resist.

[Mayhem]

That's not even the best part:

Saved from what? 5G radiation?

[Elegiac]

The Department of Justice is considering charging Derek Chauvin for brutalizing and kneeling on a suspect.

Oh no, this isn't the Floyd murder. This is a different incident from... *checks notes* four years ago.

The videos, from Sept. 4, 2017, allegedly showed Chauvin striking a Black teenager in the head so hard that the boy needed stitches, then allegedly holding the boy down with his knee for nearly 17 minutes, and allegedly ignoring complaints from the boy that he couldn’t breathe.

--

After officers entered the home and spoke to the woman, they ordered the son to lie on the ground, but he refused. Within seconds, Chauvin hit the teenager with his flashlight, grabbed the teenager’s throat, hit him again with the flashlight, and then “applied a neck restraint, causing the child to lose consciousness and go to the ground,” according to Frank’s account of the videos, detailed in a filing seeking permission to raise the incident during trial.

“Chauvin and [the other officer] placed [the teenager] in the prone position and handcuffed him behind his back while the teenager’s mother pleaded with them not to kill her son and told her son to stop resisting,” Frank wrote, noting that at one point the teenager’s ear began bleeding. “About a minute after going to the ground, the child began repeatedly telling the officers that he could not breathe, and his mother told Chauvin to take his knee off her son.”

About eight minutes in, Chauvin moved his knee to the teenager’s upper back and left it there for nine more minutes, according to Frank.

Eventually, Chauvin told the teenager he was under arrest for domestic assault and obstruction with force. The two officers then helped the teenager to an ambulance, which took him to a hospital to receive stitches, Frank wrote.

The teenager in question was 14 years old at the time.

Moreover, Maryland's Attorney-General announced a review of all death reports produced by the former medical examiner that testified as part of Chauvin's defense.

"His testimony and conclusions were so outside the bounds of accepted forensic practice that all his previous work should come into question.”

Just to drive the nail in the coffin for the fentantyl/stroke/carbon monoxide clowns.

[Masark]

Longer than inadequate 19 months average training (3 years in EU on average for example)

You need to read that again. The average training is not 19 months. It was 19 weeks (as of 2006)

There has been marginal improvement there. As of 2013, the average had increased to 21 weeks.

At that rate of increase, they'll get up to EU standards just in time to celebrate the start of the next millennium.

[Elegiac]

You need to read that again. The average training is not 19 months. It was 19 weeks.

There has been marginal improvement there. As of 2013, the average had increased to 21 weeks.

Oh wow, that's almost as long as it takes to become a hair stylist!

So glad we have these upstanding and highly trained agents of the law on our streets. /s

[postman1782]

The Department of Justice is considering charging Derek Chauvin for brutalizing and kneeling on a suspect.

Oh no, this isn't the Floyd murder. This is a different incident from... *checks notes* four years ago.



The teenager in question was 14 years old at the time.

Moreover, Maryland's Attorney-General announced a review of all death reports produced by the former medical examiner that testified as part of Chauvin's defense.



Just to drive the nail in the coffin for the fentantyl/stroke/carbon monoxide clowns.

I believe that same "medical examiner" is also being sued for another case where his "analysis" got another cop out of charges.

https://www.insider.com/derek-chauvi...%20by%20police.