If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[Plehnard]

the night elves already lost that portion of territory after reign of chaos, because they started the conflict and lost, after archimond the orcs could stay there by their truce, but the night elves broke their truce and allied themselves with the alliance to remove orcs from there.

So if I start digging in my neighbours garden, he starts to stop me and I break his nose in the fight that land is now rightfully mine?
Where do you live with that attitude?

[Syegfryed]

Besides in your imagination where does it say that?

their armies destroyed and their demigod dead ring any bells?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That is, the Orcs invade the territory of the Kaldorei and they defend themselves.

It would be nice if the Kaldorei now invade and destroy Horde territory so we can have some kind of gray conflict from here to 5 expansions.

Yes the conflict the night elfs started was on going in a diminished state, it would do so until tbc where the trade deal put a hard pause on it but it didn’t last long because the alliance restarted the war a few months later in wrath.

And ya I’d be all for the night elfs striking back at the orcs and destroying stuff.

[Syegfryed]

So if I start digging in my neighbours garden, he starts to stop me and I break his nose in the fight that land is now rightfully mine?
Where do you live with that attitude?

stop pretending our world rules work the same as warcraft one, is even more dumb when you make those kind of false comparisons.

you know there is a garden, and belong to someone's else, it is marked, you enter there knowing it was inhabited by your neighbours , because they made sure to other people;

If you accidentally enter your neighbour garden and step on his flowers, you think it is ok for then to murder you? see how this bullshit make no sense?

[geco]

their armies destroyed and their demigod dead ring any bells?

By grommash he joined the burning legion so in any case they would be territories of the burning legion.

But being your logic. So it never happened and the Horde came invading Kaldorei territory from W3 and keeping the war conscientiously for being invaders.

Yes the conflict the night elfs started was on going in a diminished state, it would do so until tbc where the trade deal put a hard pause on it but it didn’t last long because the alliance restarted the war a few months later in wrath.

And ya I’d be all for the night elfs striking back at the orcs and destroying stuff.

I do not agree completely, but if I agree with you. In the topic here that is "Kaldorei vs Orc" the Kaldorei do not attack.
PS on the other hand you realize why so many Kaldorei players hate being in the alliance.

stop pretending our world rules work the same as warcraft one, is even more dumb when you make those kind of false comparisons.

You are the one who started it.
In WoW the rules are easier. If you touch a Kaldorei Tree, you have just declared a war.
Because this is the logic of the Kaldorei not that of humans.

And the trees are not resources.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I do not agree completely, but if I agree with you. In the topic here that is "Kaldorei vs Orc" the Kaldorei do not attack.
PS on the other hand you realize why so many Kaldorei players hate being in the alliance.

Past the first attacks in wc3? Ya I can agree that the night elfs them selfs don’t strike at the orcs in vanilla-cata as No instances come to mind.

All instances of alliance aggression on the orcs I can think of comes from humans/dwarfs/gnomes so if the night elfs weren’t part of the alliance there would likely be no conflict between them and the orcs. Post wc3

[Plehnard]

stop pretending our world rules work the same as warcraft one, is even more dumb when you make those kind of false comparisons.

you know there is a garden, and belong to someone's else, it is marked, you enter there knowing it was inhabited by your neighbours , because they made sure to other people;

If you accidentally enter your neighbour garden and step on his flowers, you think it is ok for then to murder you? see how this bullshit make no sense?

If some one attacks me for being on their territory I would get the fuck out of that place instead of counter murdering and driving the conflict even further.

By grommash he joined the burning legion so in any case they would be territories of the burning legion.

But being your logic. So it never happened and the Horde came invading Kaldorei territory from W3 and keeping the war conscientiously for being invaders.

That's a really good point. The reason the Orcs were able to get that land was because they enslaved themselves to the Legion again.

[geco]

Past the first attacks in wc3? Ya I can agree that the night elfs them selfs don’t strike at the orcs in vanilla-cata as No instances come to mind.

All instances of alliance aggression on the orcs I can think of comes from humans/dwarfs/gnomes so if the night elfs weren’t part of the alliance there would likely be no conflict between them and the orcs. Post wc3

It would be nice to know if the Horde attacked first or joined the alliance first.
But blizzard consciously did not tell us anything in chronicles.

Based on W3 he would say that a group of rogue orcs attacked the Kaldorei and the Kaldorei joined the alliance for that. Since in Vanilla the attack on brake valley is actually being carried out by orcs who do not obey trall. As far as I know.

[OwenBurton]

It would be nice to know if the Horde attacked first or joined the alliance first.
But blizzard consciously did not tell us anything in chronicles.

Based on W3 he would say that a group of rogue orcs attacked the Kaldorei and the Kaldorei joined the alliance for that. Since in Vanilla the attack on brake valley is actually being carried out by orcs who do not obey trall. As far as I know.

Chronicle does indeed avoid mentioning this completely.

The Classic cinematic implies that the first outbreak of hostility in Kalimdor (four years after the Third War and the tenuous pact between the factions) was due to the night elves and the orcs clashing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlVSJ0AvZe0

The cinematic itself was very confusing:
1. A night elf woman finds an orc or Horde weapon in Ashenvale, and apparently senses something in the distance, and pursues it by herself.
2. An orc warrior is showing in a fiery scene, which is confusing, it doesn't seem to be in Ashenvale necessarily, there is a campfire near by
3. The night elf woman and orc warrior are fighting for some unclear reason - but they are fighting in neither Ashenvale nor Durotar, but somewhere in the plains of the Barrens, possibly near Mulgore.

[VladlTutushkin]

It literally did work that’s what they were trading for the orcs weren’t getting lumber for free.

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Out of the 3 orc night elf conflicts the night elfs (or alliance) started the first two. Even your own proverb puts the night elfs at fault.

First proverb speaks specifically of your own land. And besides, orcs came there bearing weapons and raiding long before Cata.

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it was working fine, they didn't like it, because they were xenophobic, they rather conflict than peace.



that is literally what the night elves did with the orcs back in wc3, lmao, they come with a sword and died on a sword, beautfiul.

its amusing how you cannot see the hypocrisy.



it was not bs, and the soruce was completely credible, shamanistic magic that showed the future in one case and the ancestrals spirits in another one.



the difference is basically your arbitrary point of view, if its the night elf "ways" to kill trespassers and act like the trees are sacred, is the "forsaken way" to experiment in other people.

And russians often attacked those who invaded our land without actively attacking them, like european knights during feudal ages of Russia for example. Its no hypocricity, its “do not approach” warning.

[Plehnard]

Chronicle does indeed avoid mentioning this completely.

The Classic cinematic implies that the first outbreak of hostility in Kalimdor (four years after the Third War and the tenuous pact between the factions) was due to the night elves and the orcs clashing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlVSJ0AvZe0

The cinematic itself was very confusing:
1. A night elf woman finds an orc or Horde weapon in Ashenvale, and apparently senses something in the distance, and pursues it by herself.
2. An orc warrior is showing in a fiery scene, which is confusing, it doesn't seem to be in Ashenvale necessarily, there is a campfire near by
3. The night elf woman and orc warrior are fighting for some unclear reason - but they are fighting in neither Ashenvale nor Durotar, but somewhere in the plains of the Barrens, possibly near Mulgore.

That trailer has a Tauren fighting with a Dwarf near IF as well, don't think it is a good indicator for actual lore and is more the rule of cool.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It would be nice to know if the Horde attacked first or joined the alliance first.
But blizzard consciously did not tell us anything in chronicles.

Based on W3 he would say that a group of rogue orcs attacked the Kaldorei and the Kaldorei joined the alliance for that. Since in Vanilla the attack on brake valley is actually being carried out by orcs who do not obey trall. As far as I know.

Id say its pretty safe to say post warcraft 3 they still had skirmishes just like they did from classic-wrath and that lead to them joining the alliance. thrall was never big on keeping the orcs in check so its unlikely they lasted like any time without skirmishes breaking out.

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First proverb speaks specifically of your own land. And besides, orcs came there bearing weapons and raiding long before Cata.

They were in the area before cata ya but that was just the ongoing conflict of WC3 it wasn't until the trade deal at the end of tbc that all fighting stopped.

[Syegfryed]

By grommash he joined the burning legion so in any case they would be territories of the burning legion.

and it was horde again once Thrall beat grom.

But being your logic. So it never happened and the Horde came invading Kaldorei territory from W3 and keeping the war conscientiously for being invaders.

the war continue because the night elves keep attacking then and ruining the trade they had an accord.

You are the one who started it.

no, you and the one one start, by doing dumb comparisons who don't reflect the scenario..

In WoW the rules are easier. If you touch a Kaldorei Tree, you have just declared a war.

and that is something dumb that only a barbaric/retarded race would do, and is even more biased when draeneis crash in their lands,d estroying a lots of trees and no war was declared.

if that is the kaldorei logic the orcish logic is kill the ones who try to kill then.

And the trees are not resources.

trees are resources, to build things.

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It would be nice to know if the Horde attacked first or joined the alliance first..

the night elves attacked first, the horde strike back with the warsong clan, unable to drive the hrode back they joined the alliance for support.

If some one attacks me for being on their territory I would get the fuck out of that place instead of counter murdering and driving the conflict even further.
.

im asking if they were right for MURDERING YOU, not attacking you, you being a coward is not the point

if someone attack me i attack then back, and in the conflict situation, if they, by no reason, start to kill my friends, my clan, they will fucking die

And russians often attacked those who invaded our land without actively attacking them, like european knights during feudal ages of Russia for example. Its no hypocricity, its “do not approach” warning.

in the next live, the nigh elves should pinvent the warns and marks in the borders of the forests, showing they belong to someone.

[Plehnard]

im asking if they were right for MURDERING YOU, not attacking you, you being a coward is not the point

if someone attack me i attack then back, and in the conflict situation, if they, by no reason, start to kill my friends, my clan, they will fucking die

It would have never gotten that far if Grom wasn't such a bone headed idiot. If he did an organized retreat probably no one would have gotten hurt but instead he drove on and spilled even more blood of his "friends" as well.

It's also funny that you screech so much about the night elves ambushing without a warning when the entire reason Grom got send chopping wood is because he did the very same thing to a human convoy just a moment before.

[geco]

...

I'm starting to think you're rolling an Orc in the discussion.
Based on the Hedcanon that you impose on the parts we all know that no one knows the lore.

[Syegfryed]

It would have never gotten that far if Grom wasn't such a bone headed idiot. If he did an organized retreat probably no one would have gotten hurt but instead he drove on and spilled even more blood of his "friends" as well.

you mean the night elves that were bone headed idiots? cause they start killing first, he did his job to make a base, there was not realistically sense in retreating if a race of people by no reason start killing you if you can hit then back

Like i said before, Orcs only strike back when provoked, every other race who had a friendly approach and didn't welcomed then with arrows or swords befriend then like taurens and trolls, the problem was not the orcs, but the xenophoby of night elves

It's also funny that you screech so much about the night elves ambushing without a warning when the entire reason Grom got send chopping wood is because he did the very same thing to a human convoy just a moment before.

He had reasons to fight humans, but just because eh did with then before, ti does not excuse what the night elves did, because you know, they had no knowledge of that.

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I'm starting to think you're rolling an Orc in the discussion.
Based on the Hedcanon that you impose on the parts we all know that no one knows the lore.

yeah "i am the one with headcanon" let alone how you made up ton of things trying to justify the night elves and/or whitewash then

[Wolfrick]

Are you insane? Literally in no time in their history they have ever done that. Night elves always wanted only to be left alone in their woods, not expanding them or wanting any more land.

Only forest in the Barrens i can think about is Overgrowth which was a collective fuckup of a Cenarion Circle mission which btw included tauren.

Mate, you are terribly miss informed... the Night elves have been all over the globe.... even after the sundering and the end of their Night elf empire...

They made World Trees (like teldrasill) all over the place... so what that person said is very true.

Night elves are very self centered and look at them selves as a very "important creatures" (Malfurion is a very rare kind of night elf)

all this is very Natural... they have lived for over 10.000 years and everything around them have changed but them... so if you live for over 10.000 years... stuff around you become very meaningless... since it will fade away... in time... but you who are immortal will live forever.

So a country or a culture that has been around for 10.000 years with the same people that founded it... will become Xenophobic and very self centered...

this Lore is in the game... Warcraft 3 and in the books.

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Their Firbolg allies lived there, so ceding Azshara to the Horde meant hanging them out to dry.

I agree with that 100% ^^

the night elves are very self centered and ego centric... so to them the only lives that really matters are them selves... so Furbolgs are just animals to them

[geco]

Night elves are very self centered and look at them selves as a very "important creatures" (Malfurion is a very rare kind of night elf)

Exactly he even discriminates the Kaldorei.

[Wolfrick]

Yes, but it should ve been given before World of Warcraft. After the Battle for Mount Hyjal when Orcs proved themselves as genuine when they told others, they are no longer seeking war and conquest. Under Thrall's leadership, with the resources gathered from there, new farmlands, new places to settle, Orcs wouldnt have a reason to follow Garrosh and actually Garrosh wouldnt think about the Horde if he found a thriving country instead of one filled with starving people, wrecked by conflict over and over again.

Same happened when Cenarius and his elfs attacked the Orcs without even trying to communicate. When the Orcs were being butchered it was the demons oppurtunity to corrupt them again. Elfs gave their enemies an oppurtunity. It wasnt the last time either. Remember when Night Elfs sabotaged Blood Elf's Arcane Sanctums because they deemed using magic blasphemy? An act that would starve the survivors of an invasion which nearly destroyed their country and drove them to near extinction levels? an Act of WAR! (which was complete opposite of how Warcraft 3 portrayed the relationship between these two races of common ancestry btw.)

With all that said by the time of Sylvanas as the Warchief. The Horde was already agitated to the edge. And they were blamed for the Alliance High King's death too, all of sudden. Sylvanas just used that state for her goals. So even if they did give Ashenvale post Legion. Sylvanas would find a way to legitimize assaulting Darkshore.
Elfs choosed years of conflict when they drove orcs to the deserts because they believed those ugly brutes didn't deserve lush forests or habitable lands.

So, I wonder, are you the Magisterofquelthalas from the Chat of "the World of Warcraft Lorerun" by "archeengiea" today he is called the Lorerunner? Just wonder since it feels so random to see you here XD

[ravenmoon]

Actually, the high elves and blood elves don't "love" nature. Eversong Forest isn't natural because of the first Highborne of Quel'Thalas enchanted the region into a timelocked, eternal spring. Eversong has been the way we see it in-game, for over 7000 years.

It's not a "love" for nature.

Tanaria.. you don't keep something in eternal spring because you don't love it

you don't live in lush beautiful forest you keep and improve because you don't love it

The idea that because Quel'thalas weather was altered to be optimal means they don't love nature is ridiculous.. the person who started this and those who followed clearly aren't thinking this entirely through.

Do you not know the druids also alter nature when it suits them.. - if altering nature (I don't know what you would call a giant tree, or intervening against the natural order to preserve and even enhance nature is -- why enhance nature with arcane energies of the moonwells? -) Just because those elves do these things doesn't mean they don't love nature.

Now not all elves love nature, and not all have the same degree of love for it, furthermore not all have the same type of love. but there is a consistent theme across all the elves of Warcraft.. magic and nature.

Night elves - magic and nature from start to current
High elves - magic and nature - while nature doesn't have the same emphasis in the night elves (night elves just did everything they do to more extremes), nature is present
Blood elves - don't burn their forests down, they are harsher than the former too, but we see there is still regard, even those that would manipulate it like in the Botanica, would not be doing that line of work if they didn't love or have an affinity for nature
Nightborne - Suramar has gardens, animals and nature magic users, these former night elves have been trapped in a city for a long time, they don't view caging animals in a zoo as being anti nature, but this horrifies the more nature loving Nighteyes druid - yet this doesn't mean they hate nature, they have powerful nature magic wielders, and those who tend their gardens in very strained conditions over the last 10k years. Now they have a strong nature legacy in the Arcan'dor, the whole triumph over addiction and the curse of the Nightwell is founded upon bringing them back into balance by enhancing the nature side of them.

Think.. why is a tree used? why not go another route like they did with the blood elves and the sunwell? Why involve nature in it at all? because it is a core part of the race, you just have to realise that different groups of the elves have varying degrees of nature love.

most of kaldorei groups have been led by a druid for 10k years, so they're very nature sensitive, when they were led by Azshara, they were very arcane sensitive, but nature was still a core part... it's always been a core part.