Poll: Would you want Dual spec added in Classic TBC?

[erifwodahs]

You can work with a Prot Pally without question, but when dual spec exists, there is just no reason to have a Prot Pally tanking the boss.
Have a Druid / Warr with Tank gear go dps on trash, then the Pally goes Ret / Holy whenever you have a boss without multiple adds and you have the best of both worlds without any drawbacks.

Well, but that is not what happens. In retail you pretty much can tank/heal in the same gear as you DPS, but that doesn't make every havoc DH suddenly become Vengeance or Prot Paladin play holy. That did not happen in WotLK, that would not happen in TBC.
And that is a big one for PvP players too. I for one would love to do PvP when I am not doing PvE, but it just discourages large part of community because you have to respec every time you want to go into arena.

[Kralljin]

Avengers Shield says hello. It Also hits multiple Targets. Mangle hits 1 and doesn't have a Threat increase modifier.

This discussion is obviously about single target so that entire multi target aspect is completely pointless.

And Feral not only have Mangle, but also Lacerate, which has a built in threat modifier.

Another Prot Pally can use a different Blessing. And Prot Warriors Benefit from Block and taking less damage.

Because taking 80 less damage per hit on a bossfight isn't exactly a big factor, nor the 46 thorns on block.
When Magtheridon hits your tank for 6k+, that 80 damage reduction will surely make a difference!

It's a good buff for, guess what, multi target fights, where threat is already reason enough to bring a Prot Pally but on single target fights, that buff is near useless.
You should have 3 Pallies anyway to cover the most important Blessings, but Sanctuary is not an important one.

Except absolute immunity to damage and Lay on hands.

Divine Shield is a terrible defensive CD for obvious reasons, you can't even DS+Taunt properly in TBC, the chances of someone dying due to that (or possibly fucking up the position) is extremely high, as the Pally taunt requires the boss to target someone else for it work.

Putting aside that Avenging Wrath causes Forbearance and thus prevents usage of DS for one minute.

I'd rather a Prot Pally over a Druid literally 99.99% of the expansion.

Statements like those are just completely stupid and hyperbolic, because the entire premise of the debate is that Pallies are just straight worse single target tanks than Prot Warrs and Feral Druids, which they are, if you question that, then do some research by yourself.

They're perfectly suited for AoE tanking, but single target they most certainly fall behind.

Well, but that is not what happens. In retail you pretty much can tank/heal in the same gear as you DPS, but that doesn't make every havoc DH suddenly become Vengeance or Prot Paladin play holy. That did not happen in WotLK, that would not happen in TBC.

The comparison with Retail / Wotlk fails because every single tank can AoE tank there, you don't need a Prot Pally to AoE tank trash because every tank can do it.
In the same vein, Blizzard also massively improved Prot Pallies in other areas in Wotlk, such as giving them a defensive CD (Divine Prot / Ardent Defender) and an easy way to generate initial threat (Hand of Reckoning).

After all, Blizzard obviously had their reasons when they homogenized tanks in those aspects.

[Nite92]

Feral Druid / Prot Warrs generate more threat and have overall better defensives.

Feral Druid:
Insane Healthpool / Armor
Solid Threat generation
You need one anyway for Leader of the Pack / Mangle

Prot Warr:
Emergency CD's (Last Stand / Shield Wall)
Reasonable threat generation
Free Sunder Armor (Dps Warrs don't have to apply / maintain it)

Prot Pally:
No Emergency CD's
Rely on Misdirection to build initial threat (No Shield Slam / Mangle type ability to generate lots of threat)
Abilities are spells and thus rely on spellhit (17% Miss chance on a boss - Hit and Spellhit aren't shared in TBC)
A unique buff that isn't useful to anyone but themselves (Blessing of Sanctuary)

You are so clueless yikes. No prot pala uses BoS, you get kings, wisdom, light.
17% spell hit? You are trolling at this point. Spell hit does not apply to the majority of our threat generation, hence spelldmg is WAY better than spell hit.
Ye, lay on hands, bubble taunt are no CDs for you?

Druid are pretty weak tanks until they start getting t4 gear, and warriors fall off later in the expansion.
Also, we will spent most of the time farming content, in which prot palas excel. Because here, trash matters.

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Give me some Examples of when A Prot Pally goes Holy mid raid.

It can be either holy or ret, it was just an example. And on eachboss where you are not tanking something? It is not specifically tied to pala tank. It can be shaman, warrior tank, boomkin... you name it. Easier bosses you 4 heal harder bosses you 6/7 heal.

[RobertMugabe]

So, i dont really see a reason not to do it. Obviously #NoChanges is over with, and this would improve quality of life in TBC.
So would you want to see Dual spec added in tbc?

Absolutely want to see it get added.

TBC was nice and everything, but I just enjoyed Wrath a lot due to some of its conveniences, dual spec being one of them.

[Kralljin]

You are so clueless yikes. No prot pala uses BoS, you get kings, wisdom, light.

I don't think changes the arguement very much, the point is that BoS isn't a useful buff.

If you want to get hung up whether a Prot Pally uses BoS or not on single target, whatever, but it just proves the point that i'm making: BoS is not useful on single target.

Ye, lay on hands, bubble taunt are no CDs for you?

Bubble taunt is shit in TBC, as explained above.

Also, we will spent most of the time farming content, in which prot palas excel. Because here, trash matters.

Yeah, that's the problem when you lack context and simply enter a discussion without having a fucking clue what is actually being discussed.

I didn't say Pallies are bad, i said they're worse than Prot Warr / Feral at Single target, which are two very different things.

[erifwodahs]

The comparison with Retail / Wotlk fails because every single tank can AoE tank there, you don't need a Prot Pally to AoE tank trash because every tank can do it.
In the same vein, Blizzard also massively improved Prot Pallies in other areas in Wotlk, such as giving them a defensive CD (Divine Prot / Ardent Defender) and an easy way to generate initial threat (Hand of Reckoning).

After all, Blizzard obviously had their reasons when they homogenized tanks in those aspects.

Well, prot pally being superior in AoE tanking doesn't make other tanks incapable of doing that and wise versa, other tanks being better at single target tanking doesn't make paladins unable to tank it single target. We are not talking Classic WoW warrior vs Classic WoW Paladin. We are talking TBC warrior vs TBC paladin.

Retail comparison still stands imo because some tanks obviously are better than others and some tanks have better offspecs but it doesn't make everyone to play that single best spec, besides people who are top end mythic raiders or guys who do 23s+ and let's be real, nothing in TBC will require such level of min-maxing which we have in retail.

[Super Kami Dende]

This discussion is obviously about single target so that entire multi target aspect is completely pointless.

And Feral not only have Mangle, but also Lacerate, which has a built in threat modifier.

Because taking 80 less damage per hit on a bossfight isn't exactly a big factor, nor the 46 thorns on block.
When Magtheridon hits your tank for 6k+, that 80 damage reduction will surely make a difference!

It's a good buff for, guess what, multi target fights, where threat is already reason enough to bring a Prot Pally but on single target fights, that buff is near useless.
You should have 3 Pallies anyway to cover the most important Blessings, but Sanctuary is not an important one.

Divine Shield is a terrible defensive CD for obvious reasons, you can't even DS+Taunt properly in TBC, the chances of someone dying due to that (or possibly fucking up the position) is extremely high, as the Pally taunt requires the boss to target someone else for it work.

Putting aside that Avenging Wrath causes Forbearance and thus prevents usage of DS for one minute.

Avengers Shield is as much ST as Multi, since it hits as hard as Mangle on all targets. Your lacerate point doesn't matter either as Prot has Holy Shield which has the Threat modifier as well.

Divine Shield is a great defensive, because assuming it is an emergency and you are about to die it will save you through anything. Also as you've made this discussion about single target boss fights, if your other tank isn't 2nd on threat and able to pick up the boss as well they are useless. You can also Divine Shield and Blessing of Sacrifice the other Tank so that you not only are immune yourself, but you remove a large part of the other tanks incoming damage during the change. Lay on hands is also 100% heal. Which is also one of the strongest single emergency CD's in the game.

The 80 damage reduction from Sanc on top of blocked damage with Holy shield up, builds up over a fight, quite a few Boss fights in TBC had multiple targets as well..

[BrintoSFJ]

Maybe they should just make each expansion an independent game of its own and keep adding more content to it. It should also apply for the classic. Keep adding more content to it by making it a separate and independent game of its own.

[Kralljin]

Well, prot pally being superior in AoE tanking doesn't make other tanks incapable of doing that and wise versa

The difference between a Prot Pally and Feral / Prot Warr when it comes to AoE tanking is extremely large.

For starters, none of those two have an uncapped AoE ability, Swipe caps out at 3, Thunderclap caps at 4, Thunderclap doesn't even scale with AP.
If you want to actually AoE tank, you won't get around a Prot Pally in TBC.

other tanks being better at single target tanking doesn't make paladins unable to tank it single target. We are not talking Classic WoW warrior vs Classic WoW Paladin. We are talking TBC warrior vs TBC paladin.

Yes and the difference is still quite significant, especially the threat department is a big factor because it's naturally a huge QoL thing for the entire raid when threat is less of an issue.

You think it the wrong way, you assume that everybody will just have a Prot Pally, when people can also just get a Prot Warr / Feral, throw some Defgear at a Ret Pally, have him tank trash / AoE Bosses and call it.

Retail comparison still stands imo because some tanks obviously are better than others and some tanks have better offspecs but it doesn't make everyone to play that single best spec

Because Retail is mechanically more complex than TBC, especially when you're tanking.
Any Paladin with a modicum of skill can play Prot in TBC, given that they have the gear and spec.

Not every good Holy / Ret in Retail will automatically be a good Prot because the bosses vastly change depending on your role and stuff like active mitigation isn't present in the other roles.
Not to mention that the gaps between class / spec performance is far smaller in Retail than in TBC, AoE tanking is the perfect example, there is no mechanic that is as present as AoE tanking in Retail that a certain tank is incapable of doing.

Avengers Shield is as much ST as Multi, since it hits as hard as Mangle on all targets.

Again, this debate is about single target, so i have no idea why you even keep mentioning multi target.

Divine Shield is a great defensive, because assuming it is an emergency and you are about to die it will save you through anything. Also as you've made this discussion about single target boss fights, if your other tank isn't 2nd on threat and able to pick up the boss as well they are useless.

Every Tank naturally struggles to be 2nd on threat in TBC, because:
Feral / Prot Warr require rage to build threat, which the 2nd tank naturally hardly gets.
Prot Pallies need to be healed (not overhealed) in order to recover mana.

Unless the 2nd tank takes a significant amount of damage, it's pretty difficult to for them to build threat.
Putting aside that when the 2nd tank does something else (like tanking another add), they're also not in the position to build threat on the boss to begin with.

There are some fights that have such a mechanic, like Gruul, but those are the exception.

You can also Divine Shield and Blessing of Sacrifice the other Tank so that you not only are immune yourself, but you remove a large part of the other tanks incoming damage during the change. Lay on hands is also 100% heal. Which is also one of the strongest single emergency CD's in the game.

You mean something that virtually every other Paladin is also capable of?
You realize we're talking here about prot specific things, not [Paladin things] in general?

A Ret who is aware of the tanks health can do that in the same way a Prot Pally could.

The 80 damage reduction from Sanc on top of blocked damage with Holy shield up, builds up over a fight

Mate, when a boss hits you for 6k+, 80 damage is 0,01% damage reduction - assuming that actually every hit becomes a block and thus triggers the damage effect.

[Zka]

BC with dual spec would be the perfect expansion but I don't think it fits into the #somechanges mindset.

[Nite92]

I don't think changes the arguement very much, the point is that BoS isn't a useful buff.

If you want to get hung up whether a Prot Pally uses BoS or not on single target, whatever, but it just proves the point that i'm making: BoS is not useful on single target.

Bubble taunt is shit in TBC, as explained above.

Yeah, that's the problem when you lack context and simply enter a discussion without having a fucking clue what is actually being discussed.

I didn't say Pallies are bad, i said they're worse than Prot Warr / Feral at Single target, which are two very different things.

You also said that warriors have better threat. That is not true starting with T6 gear. Also warriors will recieve crushing blows, that quite easily be the end of the pull.

Some of your agruments are true in certain phases, but definetly not in such a general manner.

[erifwodahs]

The difference between a Prot Pally and Feral / Prot Warr when it comes to AoE tanking is extremely large.

For starters, none of those two have an uncapped AoE ability, Swipe caps out at 3, Thunderclap caps at 4, Thunderclap doesn't even scale with AP.
If you want to actually AoE tank, you won't get around a Prot Pally in TBC.

Yes and the difference is still quite significant, especially the threat department is a big factor because it's naturally a huge QoL thing for the entire raid when threat is less of an issue.

You think it the wrong way, you assume that everybody will just have a Prot Pally, when people can also just get a Prot Warr / Feral, throw some Defgear at a Ret Pally, have him tank trash / AoE Bosses and call it.

Because Retail is mechanically more complex than TBC, especially when you're tanking.
Any Paladin with a modicum of skill can play Prot in TBC, given that they have the gear and spec.

Not every good Holy / Ret in Retail will automatically a good Prot because the bosses vastly change depending on your role and stuff like active mitigation isn't present in the other roles.
Not to mention that the gaps between class / spec performance is far smaller in Retail than in TBC, AoE tanking is the perfect example, there is no mechanic that is as present as AoE tanking in Retail that a certain tank is incapable of doing.

Assuming that this is the case then we definitely need dual spec then as playing/not playing paladin is handicapping your guild/team essentially so you can at least do something and not get benched in raids.

[Kralljin]

That is not true starting with T6 gear. Also warriors will recieve crushing blows, that quite easily be the end of the pull.

In order to receive Crushing Blows as a Warrior, you need to be extremely unlucky or have extremely short swing timers on a boss as Shield block lasts two hits and has a 5 sec CD.

You need to be:
Hit 3 times within a 5 second window
2 of those hits are blocked (not dodged / parried)
3rd hit lands (not blocked / dodged / parried)
Becomes a crushing blow

Even with a more stamina focused itemization, a T4 / T5 geared Warrior sits around 70-80% avoidance.
It is possible, but considering the level of avoidance tanks can reach, i just don't see it as a very common occurrence.

Putting aside that crushing blows / parry haste on some bosses (such as Brutallus) are disabled.

Assuming that this is the case then we definitely need dual spec then as playing/not playing paladin is handicapping your guild/team essentially so you can at least do something and not get benched in raids.

Or you just...you know, have a guy that mains Prot Pally that will be your 2nd tank on both trash and bosses.

[Nak88]

Yes and most people want it. However, I think it is unfortunately too late for them to introduce it.

[erifwodahs]

Or you just...you know, have a guy that mains Prot Pally that will be your 2nd tank on both trash and bosses.

Well, or you could have two "proper" tanks. It's not like you do MDI pulls on raid trash in TBC so two tanks could easy hold 3 mobs each
What about dungeon running then? You have two tanks in a guild of 25 people. I for one, can't find any tanks in classic currently. B

[Prag]

I'd rather a Prot Pally over a Druid literally 99.99% of the expansion.

What content are you talking about? Bears are threat machines with endless rage pools and had such insane avoidance that they created an aura in SWP just to nerf it. They’re at like 80% Dodge by T6 any physical attack that isn’t Dodged goes up against 50%+ armor mit.

I don’t agree that Prot Pallies are useless or at a severe disadvantage, but Bears are amazing tanks. You’d be doing your raid a disservice by avoiding them.

On topic:

Yeah, I’d like dual spec but it seems highly unlikely for the first few phases at least.

[Xevarc]

I like the current talent trees, But would like Dual Spec just to be able to switch talent points easier without the constant cost too!

Mainly for PvE / PvP

[Segus1992]

Mate, when a boss hits you for 6k+, 80 damage is 0,01% damage reduction - assuming that actually every hit becomes a block and thus triggers the damage effect.

Not going to argue that Prot Paladin is even comparable to Warrior/Feral for single target (it's not, claiming anything else is wishful thinking or very special fights) but 80 damage out of 6000 is actually more than 1% DR. BoSanc isn't worthless, even if it isn't even top 3 of blessings for tanks.

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What content are you talking about? Bears are threat machines with endless rage pools and had such insane avoidance that they created an aura in SWP just to nerf it. They’re at like 80% Dodge by T6 any physical attack that isn’t Dodged goes up against 50%+ armor mit.

50% armor is what a feral DPS druid might have in T4 gear. It's actually super easy to armor cap (75%) in T4 as crafted gear with bonus armor is very strong.

[shise]

Yes.

You would still have to respec every now and then, at least many players would.

But it would bring a lot more players into the world to play if they can easily switch between tank/healer and DPS spec. A lot will simply not bother.

[Segus1992]

Yes.

You would still have to respec every now and then, at least many players would.

But it would bring a lot more players into the world to play if they can easily switch between tank/healer and DPS spec. A lot will simply not bother.

Yep, I agree, though I do think there should be some kind of block so it isn't the case that you swap between bosses and even trash/bosses. A CD of a couple hours would be good enough to me.