Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[downnola]

So what does that make Hamas? You know, a government internationally recognized as a terrorist organization? One that constantly fires rockets at Israel to poke the bear yet has the audacity to whine when that bear bites back with significantly more force? Yeah, get lost with that nonsense. There's no good winner here, and you are a hypocrite if you think Israel defending themselves from militant and rocket strikes on their people makes them nationalists, then so are the Palestinians for fighting back against Israel's encroachment on their land.

I've made it clear a couple of times in this thread that I'm not making Hamas out to be innocent freedom fighters. I've also pointed out that Hamas fired those rockets after Israel leveled apartment buildings and homes. You, like Barendon, can stop spinning this as "Israel is just defending themselves against Hamas shelling!" because it's a false narrative. It's funny how a few people who've responded to me are trying to call out my bias while wildly displaying their own. Try reading my posts in an honest manner and we wouldn't have to go down this road.

[Theodarzna]

Yes, thats nice, this is about the Isreali ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Whataboutism from what other countries do is hardly relevant.
Or can they kill all the brown people they want because other people want them death?

But you want to put your hand in the sand and just ignore it when the IDF shoots at kids, be my guest. Not like this is the first time you expressed fascist opinions.

Given there are more Arabs now than before, for an ethnic cleansing it sure is going poorly. I mean, one side flaunts that they target civilians and celebrates it as a noble act, and the other you know will actually hold public inquires into these things and actually warn Arab civilians before the missiles are set to land.

[Barendon]

If you find anything but 0% civilian casualties acceptable, then that's a problem. You may not be targeting civilians, but you're certainly not making that significant an effort to prevent civilian casualties.



Derailing with a separate issue I would also take issue with isn't gonna help your case. If you think I support American imperialism overseas, you haven't paid much attention to my posting habits.



The Geneva Conventions require otherwise. Any country that isn't in favor of outright war crimes and genocide is aware of this.

If you think the Geneva Conventions are "absurd", that says everything anyone needs to know about you.

Please link the geneva convention law that prohibits use of air strikes on civilian populated areas. It does prohibits it when it is an indiscriminate attack, which I argue is not the case here. You're free to think any civilian casualty is proof of an indiscriminate assualt.

[Endus]

So what does that make Hamas? You know, a government internationally recognized as a terrorist organization? One that constantly fires rockets at Israel to poke the bear yet has the audacity to whine when that bear bites back with significantly more force? Yeah, get lost with that nonsense. There's no good winner here, and you are a hypocrite if you think Israel defending themselves from militant and rocket strikes on their people makes them nationalists, then so are the Palestinians for fighting back against Israel's encroachment on their land.

No one has a problem with Israel's Iron Dome shooting down rockets.

They have an issue with Israel responding to a handful of Israeli deaths due to rockets by implementing air strikes that kill dozens and level buildings.

Pulling numbers from here; https://www.wsj.com/articles/death-t...es-11620816151

What we get is that 6 Israelis tragically died in the rocket attacks, including one child. But the Israeli response killed 65 Palestinians, including 16 children. That is not proportional response. If you're asking people to weigh the two, if we stick to which side is causing more unnecessary deaths and tragedy, that side is Israel. Nothing about killing 16 Palestinian children and however many more of the remaining were civilian adults has anything to do with "defending Israel". It's an indiscriminate attitude towards civilian casualties of people you don't consider worth consideration or respect.

Israel bemoans that Hamas uses civilians as body shields. But their response is to just deliberately shoot the hostages, to get the ones using them as a shield. That's not a defensible argument.

[Bakis]

I mean what would a proportional response be? Blowing up a few of their school buses and just aimlessly firing missiles loaded with ball barrings into whatever populated area they live in be more acceptable?

Must be very hard to fathom the meaning of the word proportional.
Then again Israels stance on international law, Geneva convetion and the ICC is well known.

[downnola]

Please link the geneva convention law that prohibits use of air strikes on civilian populated areas. It does prohibits it when it is an indiscriminate attack, which I argue is not the case here. You're free to think any civilian casualty is proof of an indiscriminate assualt.

What makes roof-knocking and shelling apartment buildings indiscriminate is that they're not military targets. Israel is claiming they are, but they're obviously not as families and children reside in these buildings. They're homes, not military bases. It's really not hard to see the logic at play here.

[Theodarzna]

Israel is not trying to attack enemy civilians, Israel tries to attack terrorists that attack them. American use of drones to attack targets is a perfect example of that. Every country or state will choose to protect their soldiers or citizens over their enemies. What you're suggesting is absurd.

Its absurd and in my opinion hypocritical since this is a standard the Arabs are never held to.

[Easo]

Soldiers seem like the super obvious answer, holding fire unless an actual target is confirmed. But you don't want to use such measures, because it's not as convenient as an air strike that only risks killing Palestinians that you don't really consider to be "people" in the first place.

Also, not taking or permitting actions that will only serve to inflame tensions. That'd help. Israel's government is far from an innocent in these issues; they've been engaged in a multitude of war crimes for decades, with little to no consequence.

That's largely why I support a return to the 1967 borders.

Ah soldiers. 2014 comes to mind and how the world cried for IDF troops to GTFO from Gaza Hey, guess what - soldiers need support. It would be a crime in itself to send them in without anything heavy to back them up. Hamas would level city blocks without second thought to drive them out. And even if you had pure infantry cleaning out Gaza - there would be civilian casualties anyway. In war people die, no exceptions.
Lalala land, Endus. You are proposing a literal fantasy.

And 1967 borders are impossible due to places like Syria existing with autocrats and dictators in charge. Arabs cannot guarantee that they would leave Israel the fuck alone? No old borders.
P.S.
Your own dear Canada would fuck Hamas up. Everyone else would.

No one has a problem with Israel's Iron Dome shooting down rockets.

They have an issue with Israel responding to a handful of Israeli deaths due to rockets by implementing air strikes that kill dozens and level buildings.

It is not proportional response because you, again, have no idea how military works, how different technology levels works and how complete disregard for the poor fuckers/cannon fodder aka the thing Palestinians are for their dear overlords Hamas works. It is almost certain some of those deaths are only because a rocket launcher exploded and blow up nearby appartments. I can guarantee you that. And Hamas loves telling bullshit numbers, that is not new.

I heard you clearly, I just disagree that they are good reasons to kick out the arabs who have been living on that land for generations. You enjoy supporting your fascist apartheid regime, but I will not.


And yes, I will rage on any state that takes part in ethnic cleansing or apartheid, got a problem with that?
And only been shitting on Israel? Pretty sure ive been doing the same for India, Saudi Arabia, the US, Myanmar and whoever else im missing.

So you disagree with actual ownership proof too? I got problem with people like you pretending that it is fine for Hamas (pretty much mini ISIS, and no, that is not exageration) to because launch rockets and specifically target civilians because Israel has done bad things.
Hamas wants all Jews dead. Exactly what I wrote - they want all and every single Jew dead. Go on, keep talking about about ethnic cleansing...

Its absurd and in my opinion hypocritical since this is a standard the Arabs are never held to.

Fuuck, never thought I would ever agree with you. But why not the same standard? Because everyone actually knows that Israel is the only democracy in the region and thus you can demand something from them. All others simply do not care. It is a game of pretend.

What makes roof-knocking and shelling apartment buildings indiscriminate is that they're not military targets. Israel is claiming they are, but they're obviously not as families and children reside in these buildings. They're homes, not military bases. It's really not hard to see the logic at play here.

I wonder what Geneva Convention says about using those homes for military operations?

[Shadowferal]

When it comes to the idea of lebensraum, Israel learned well...from the worst.

[Barendon]

Last I checked, Israel and Palestine aren't officially at war. Israel seems hell-bent on making it a reality though. A solution? Don't bomb apartment buildings with families living in them. Boy, that was hard.

If that was the case you wouldnt see 65 dead. Youd see hundreds dead. Also who decides when something is a war or not?

And the only death count they provide in your article is by naming one Hamas commander. 1 out of 65 death and 365 wounded isn't "most" like you claimed. You still haven't backed that comment up with any thing substantial.

The fact that they dont call the rest of the casualties civilian given its a pro palestinian news site, is enough proof for me. In your case, we can wait for the results after everything quiets down.

[Theodarzna]

Must be very hard to fathom the meaning of the word proportional.
Then again Israels stance on international law, Geneva convetion and the ICC is well known.

None of which apparently applies to the Arabs which aren't held to any of this.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I think there is nothing we as outsiders can really do that isn't just projecting our own hangups on a region that doesn't have much to do with ourselves. This isn't really our conflict or fight to be involved in and its not really reducible to a Good Guy v. Bad Guy conflict.

True and spot on

[Barendon]

What makes roof-knocking and shelling apartment buildings indiscriminate is that they're not military targets. Israel is claiming they are, but they're obviously not as families and children reside in these buildings. They're homes, not military bases. It's really not hard to see the logic at play here.

When a building is used for warfare it becomes a military target. Prove me wrong.

[Bakis]

None of which apparently applies to the Arabs which aren't held to any of this.

One would expect more from a democracy not in the 3rd world gheto. Or not I guess.

[Endus]

Please link the geneva convention law that prohibits use of air strikes on civilian populated areas. It does prohibits it when it is an indiscriminate attack, which I argue is not the case here. You're free to think any civilian casualty is proof of an indiscriminate assualt.

Article 27. "Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity"

Second sentence particularly, first sentence included for context.

Could also point to the entire section on people in occupied territories, which Israel regularly breaches.

[Theodarzna]

The problem is they are getting involved by continually supporting Israel when this shit happens both diplomatically and financially. Do you realize how much aid the United States gives Israel?

I've been lectured at length in many other threads that America as a right to be involved with, give money to and befriend whoever they want. I personally wouldn't give Israel a dime. But I get called an isolationist or worse for thinking America shouldn't have a vast overseas Empire.

[downnola]

I wonder what Geneve Convention says about using those homes for military operations?

Pretty much the same excuse Assad's army used when they reduced their own country to rubble. They offered about as much proof as Israel that these buildings in Gaza were used for "military operations": zero.

When a building is used for warfare it becomes a military target. Prove me wrong.

I'm not the one making the claim that they were anything other than apartments that people lived in. It's not up to me to provide proof for something you're trying to argue is the case. Considering Israel has a shitty track record with indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets, it would seem the onus for evidence is in your court not mine.

[Theodarzna]

One would expect more from a democracy not in the 3rd world gheto. Or not I guess.

How convenient, one side is basically forbidden from actually fighting and the other are to be treated as if they were innocent children who don't know any better I guess. How convenient for the Arabs, heads I win, tails you lose.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much the same excuse Assad's army used when they reduced their own country to rubble. They offered about as much proof as Israel that these buildings in Gaza were used for "military operations": zero.

As a quick question, between Hamas and Israel, who is Assad currently friendly with?

[Barendon]

Article 27. "Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, theirreligious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected
especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity"

Second sentence particularly, first sentence included for context.

Could also point to the entire section on people in occupied territories, which Israel regularly breaches.

I would agree that Israel is breaching some of the points in that section. Israel is not a saint in this conflict as you said, both are responsible.

[Slant]

Both sides are in the wrong.

I agree. And both sides need to stop flooding the internet with their videos, begging for approval. Nobody is gonna help them. They need to sort this shit out themselves.