Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[uuuhname]

also still no news on how many militants have been killed, really tells you how much Israel cares about dealing with the problem of militants if they can't even show their results.

[Mihalik]

Israel has been engaging in a consistent campaign of human rights abuses and war crimes for a half-century. .

You're wasting your time.

If there's anything I've learned over the years is that there's a subset if people who will support/justify anything and everything imaginable under the sun that Israel does to the Palestinians because they are completely unable/unwilling to see the Palestinian people as human beings.

They get a weird boner from Israel's military prowess and simply refuse to acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinian people, and if by some miracle they acknowledge it, they will victim blame them for it.

The ultimate goal of Israel is the full annexation of the West Bank and Gaza, the annihilation of any hope for a Palestinian state and full displacement of all Palestinians from the new territory of Israel.

And people like PC2 here will cheer this on.

Reminder that Israel bombing journalists is not a novelty, they have a long tradition of it. As of killing children.

[Fandis]

Nope. We can just look at the casualty lists, and it's blatantly clear who's responsible for killing more civilians.

It's Israel. And it isn't even a close contest.

Israel also has a long history of brutal racism against Palestinians. A denial of basic equity under their legal system dating right back to 1948. A practice of ethnic cleansing against them. And a consistent pattern of war crimes in occupied territories.

Sure, Hamas engages in terrorist attacks, and that's bad. Those terrorist attacks are far less harmful than Israel's attacks on Palestine.

Come on Endus, and to think I used to like some of your posts in the past. In this thread some of your ideas sound like they'd come from a 13 y/o. Like really, deciding on who's the bad guy going by the body count? The reason Israel has vastly less casualties is cause it has invested in defense systems for its citizens and not just in rockets and tunnels, and you know it perfectly well, and not for a lack of Palestinians' trying to kill our civilians. If not for Iron Dome +shelters thousands of Israelis would have died as a result of this shelling (and Gaza would have probably be turned into a parking lot in response). Just 2 scenarios, try to apply your logic to them:

1)WW2 UK vs Germany (disregard the other participants). Who has killed more of each other's civilians (hint: Dresden)? Who should be considered the bad guy then?

2)Person A is shooting at person B unprovoked, trying to kill them, but is a terrible shooter and keeps missing. person B doesn't want to kill person A but as every bullet can become fatal he has no choice but killing A. Who is the bad guy here again?


2ndly, earlier in the thread you said that Israel shouldn't bomb Gaza in order to deal with Hamas, so I'm curious, what method would you suggest instead? Should we send Chuck Norris in (who's on an unrelated note a big supporter of Israel iirc)? or maybe instead we should develop a missile that flies around civilians and only hits terrorists? Cause you don't seem to have an idea what Gaza is. it isn't exactly a Las Vegas with a few crazies hiding in one of the buildings. Hamas is an army that's armed to the teeth. Not as powerful as IDF obviously, but an army nevertheless, that has one of the most densely populated areas in the world with extremely loyal to them population, and has the place fortified to the teeth. Sending a small group of soldiers there to take them out as you've earlier suggested would make as much sense as sending a small group into Berlin during WW2 to take out Hitler and his generals.

[Alex Moriati]

Nope. We can just look at the casualty lists, and it's blatantly clear who's responsible for killing more civilians.

It's Israel. And it isn't even a close contest.

only because they have better defense than the other side.

The Israeli military said that Hamas, an Islamist group regarded by Israel, the United States and the European Union as a terrorist movement, and other armed factions have fired more than 2,800 rockets from Gaza over the past week.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ay-2021-05-15/

how many deaths would that have been if all of them hit?

[Alex Moriati]

Right, so when a kid throws a snowball at your car the appropriate response, in your eyes, is to shoot their entire family. Nifty.

why are you comparing snowballs to weapons?

[Kante]

Do Palestinians not have a right to defend themselves?

They use the same method of firing rockets even during time of calm and unprovoked, who are they defending themselves from when firing into civilian population?

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why are you comparing snowballs to weapons?

Such a weird comparison indeed, apparently rockets with 50-300kg of explosives fired into civilian population is akin to snowballs...

[Iliena]

Come on Endus, and to think I used to like some of your posts in the past. In this thread some of your ideas sound like they'd come from a 13 y/o. Like really, deciding on who's the bad guy going by the body count? The reason Israel has vastly less casualties is cause it has invested in defense systems for its citizens and not just in rockets and tunnels, and you know it perfectly well, and not for a lack of Palestinians' trying to kill our civilians. If not for Iron Dome +shelters thousands of Israelis would have died as a result of this shelling (and Gaza would have probably be turned into a parking lot in response). Just 2 scenarios, try to apply your logic to them:

1)WW2 UK vs Germany (disregard the other participants). Who has killed more of each other's civilians (hint: Dresden)? Who should be considered the bad guy then?

2)Person A is shooting at person B unprovoked, trying to kill them, but is a terrible shooter and keeps missing. person B doesn't want to kill person A but as every bullet can become fatal he has no choice but killing A. Who is the bad guy here again?


2ndly, earlier in the thread you said that Israel shouldn't bomb Gaza in order to deal with Hamas, so I'm curious, what method would you suggest instead? Should we send Chuck Norris in (who's on an unrelated note a big supporter of Israel iirc)? or maybe instead we should develop a missile that flies around civilians and only hits terrorists? Cause you don't seem to have an idea what Gaza is. it isn't exactly a Las Vegas with a few crazies hiding in one of the buildings. Hamas is an army that's armed to the teeth. Not as powerful as IDF obviously, but an army nevertheless, that has one of the most densely populated areas in the world with extremely loyal to them population, and has the place fortified to the teeth. Sending a small group of soldiers there to take them out as you've earlier suggested would make as much sense as sending a small group into Berlin during WW2 to take out Hitler and his generals.

Stop with the gaslighting BS, you are not at war with Palestine so comparing it WW2 is wrong on so many levels, but seeing you mentioned it seems Israelis have forgotten what it is like to be subjugated in your place of birth, which is exactly what you are doing forcing people out their homes for BS reasons.

[Themius]

They use the same method of firing rockets even during time of calm and unprovoked, who are they defending themselves from when firing into civilian population?

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Such a weird comparison indeed, apparently rockets with 50-300kg of explosives fired into civilian population is akin to snowballs...

Calm? When was calm?

[Endus]

Come on Endus, and to think I used to like some of your posts in the past. In this thread some of your ideas sound like they'd come from a 13 y/o. Like really, deciding on who's the bad guy going by the body count?

I have taken pains to be clear I am not saying either side is "the bad guy". Both Hamas and Israel act atrociously. I've been saying that the whole time.

That said, the one of the two presenting the greatest threat to peace, to innocent lives, and so on, that's clearly Israel, and it is not remotely close.

The reason Israel has vastly less casualties is cause it has invested in defense systems for its citizens and not just in rockets and tunnels, and you know it perfectly well, and not for a lack of Palestinians' trying to kill our civilians.

Oh, stuff it. Decades of military support by the USA is why Israel has such a technological and financial advantage.

Pretending otherwise is just willful ignorance.

It takes a hell of a lot of cajones to look at a case where a country (Israel) has used its advantages to dismantle and destroy a neighbour (Palestine) with minimal opposition, and claim that it's just about different choices by their leaderships.

1)WW2 UK vs Germany (disregard the other participants). Who has killed more of each other's civilians (hint: Dresden)? Who should be considered the bad guy then?

Why would I disregard the other participants? I reject your example because you're already trying to twist the facts, right out the gate. Hell, we shouldn't even disregard the German civilians that the Reich slaughtered. Y'know, the Holocaust. Kind of a big deal.

2)Person A is shooting at person B unprovoked, trying to kill them, but is a terrible shooter and keeps missing. person B doesn't want to kill person A but as every bullet can become fatal he has no choice but killing A. Who is the bad guy here again?

"Unprovoked"? Get the hell out of here with that nonsense. There's about 70 years of ethnic cleansing, war crimes, and other related issues perpetrated by Israel upon Palestine that qualify as "provocation".

Note the difference between "provocation" and "justification". I am not making an argument for the latter.

Try this; Person A and Person B have been shooting at each other for decades. Their parents shot at each other in their time, and their grandparents before them. Person B, on Tuesday, takes a potshot at A that mostly richochets off the steel plates on Person A's house, but a splinter hits Person A's daughter. This is terrible. In response, Person A deliberately shoots and kills 10 members of Person B's family, deliberately targeting the unarmed and the kids. Person A has also been stealing Person B's property for, like, 70 years. And they've been shooting at each other so long there's always some prior incident they claim to be shooting back in revenge for.

That's a bit closer. Person B's clearly the one causing the most harm. That doesn't mean person A is behaving well, but Person B's gonna trigger a bigger police response.

2ndly, earlier in the thread you said that Israel shouldn't bomb Gaza in order to deal with Hamas, so I'm curious, what method would you suggest instead? Should we send Chuck Norris in (who's on an unrelated note a big supporter of Israel iirc)? or maybe instead we should develop a missile that flies around civilians and only hits terrorists? Cause you don't seem to have an idea what Gaza is. it isn't exactly a Las Vegas with a few crazies hiding in one of the buildings. Hamas is an army that's armed to the teeth. Not as powerful as IDF obviously, but an army nevertheless, that has one of the most densely populated areas in the world with extremely loyal to them population, and has the place fortified to the teeth. Sending a small group of soldiers there to take them out as you've earlier suggested would make as much sense as sending a small group into Berlin during WW2 to take out Hitler and his generals.

I didn't suggest doing so would be easy or safe for the IDF.

I said when your alternative is "kill 58 children, 34 women, and about 100 more innocents in just the last week of shelling, along with targeting journalists", that isn't a defensible option. It's just casual indifference to Palestinian lives.

If the alternative is a risky assault by soldiers where 200 IDF soldiers lost their lives achieving their goal, that's the better option. Soldiers have, at least, signed up to risk their lives in that way. Civilians have not. And children dying is just not ever acceptable.

That you think dead Palestinian children is a price you're willing to pay is the problem.

only because they have better defense than the other side.

The Israeli military said that Hamas, an Islamist group regarded by Israel, the United States and the European Union as a terrorist movement, and other armed factions have fired more than 2,800 rockets from Gaza over the past week.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ay-2021-05-15/

how many deaths would that have been if all of them hit?

I'm really not interested in entertaining what-ifs or fantasies. I'll stick to the actual facts, thanks.

[Alex Moriati]

I'm really not interested in entertaining what-ifs or fantasies. I'll stick to the actual facts, thanks.

stick to actual facts?

facts: if israel didn't have the defensive capabilities they have, hamas and the others would have killed more civilians than israel.

[uuuhname]

stick to actual facts?

facts: if israel didn't have the defensive capabilities they have, hamas and the others would have killed more civilians than israel.

or, or, hear me out. if they didn't have the backing of the world's biggest military's empire at their beckon call they wouldn't be so casual with dropping bombs on civilians. these thought experiments can go in any direction.

[Endus]

stick to actual facts?

facts: if israel didn't have the defensive capabilities they have, hamas and the others would have killed more civilians than israel.

And if they didn't, Hamas wouldn't have stepped up their actions in the way they have, and would be using different tactics.

It's a useless question because you can't just change that one thing, you have to change the last 10 years. Every choice by both sides.

And frankly, I can pretty comfortably assert that things wouldn't be that different, because the Iron Dome only went active in 2011. And the thing is, we've got a lot more history than that. Even before the Iron Dome was online, casualties were overwhelmingly Palestinian.

Edit: Came to me a bit late, but I'll also point out nobody takes issue with Israel's defensive tools like the Iron Dome. That's not what the outcry's about, at all.

[Cringefest]

When Palestinian militants stop using hospitals and news buildings for military and terrorist purposes then that won't happen anymore.

Yeah not really the way it works dude.

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Come on Endus, and to think I used to like some of your posts in the past. In this thread some of your ideas sound like they'd come from a 13 y/o. Like really, deciding on who's the bad guy going by the body count? The reason Israel has vastly less casualties is cause it has invested in defense systems for its citizens and not just in rockets and tunnels, and you know it perfectly well, and not for a lack of Palestinians' trying to kill our civilians. If not for Iron Dome +shelters thousands of Israelis would have died as a result of this shelling (and Gaza would have probably be turned into a parking lot in response). Just 2 scenarios, try to apply your logic to them:

1)WW2 UK vs Germany (disregard the other participants). Who has killed more of each other's civilians (hint: Dresden)? Who should be considered the bad guy then?

2)Person A is shooting at person B unprovoked, trying to kill them, but is a terrible shooter and keeps missing. person B doesn't want to kill person A but as every bullet can become fatal he has no choice but killing A. Who is the bad guy here again?


2ndly, earlier in the thread you said that Israel shouldn't bomb Gaza in order to deal with Hamas, so I'm curious, what method would you suggest instead? Should we send Chuck Norris in (who's on an unrelated note a big supporter of Israel iirc)? or maybe instead we should develop a missile that flies around civilians and only hits terrorists? Cause you don't seem to have an idea what Gaza is. it isn't exactly a Las Vegas with a few crazies hiding in one of the buildings. Hamas is an army that's armed to the teeth. Not as powerful as IDF obviously, but an army nevertheless, that has one of the most densely populated areas in the world with extremely loyal to them population, and has the place fortified to the teeth. Sending a small group of soldiers there to take them out as you've earlier suggested would make as much sense as sending a small group into Berlin during WW2 to take out Hitler and his generals.

"Woulds" don't really make solid points. The reality of things is what it is. You can't engage the discussion with a hypothetical. This isn't an exercise in debating skills. We're discussing things that are happening in the real world.

The way to deal with Hamas is to make the people understand they are not needed. Killing children however, proves them right everytime. But sure, why would Israel try to actually remove them? They've been really helpful to Israel.

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They use the same method of firing rockets even during time of calm and unprovoked, who are they defending themselves from when firing into civilian population?

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Such a weird comparison indeed, apparently rockets with 50-300kg of explosives fired into civilian population is akin to snowballs...

Not true. Just before the 2014 operation iirc, rockets were reduced to zero and they still got bombed.

Look guys, I'm sorry it doesn't line with your views but that's just how things are over there. Israel is fucking up big time in order to save Netanyahu's ass once again.

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stick to actual facts?

facts: if israel didn't have the defensive capabilities they have, hamas and the others would have killed more civilians than israel.

Erm... That still isn't a real, quantifiable fact.

[ati87]

Plenty of non arabs in israel are against him,the guy is as bad as they come in our modern days,he is a few steps away from bring like kim jong,hes been facing corruption charges for years now,the only reason he is able to get away with it is because he knows he has usa in his back pocket

For the Arabs Netanyahu is as bad as any other dictator really.

You can't claim the titel of being the "only democracy in the middle east" and then treat a large portion of your citizens as 2e class.
Furthermore people in Gaza and West Bank, area's who Israel both controls did not vote for this guy (yes Israel controls Gaza).

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or, or, hear me out. if they didn't have the backing of the world's biggest military's empire at their beckon call they wouldn't be so casual with dropping bombs on civilians. these thought experiments can go in any direction.

I would argue that without the backing of the US, Israel would probably have been forced to agree to peace.
Right now what true incentive does Israel have for any kind of solution?
Right now Israel can just evict Palestinians from there homes whenever they feel like it and just bomb Gaza when it's convenient for them.

I really don't see what Israel has to gain right now by allowing Palestinians to be able to form a government and build a country.

[Cringefest]

For the Arabs Netanyahu is as bad as any other dictator really.

You can't claim the titel of being the "only democracy in the middle east" and then treat a large portion of your citizens as 2e class.
Furthermore people in Gaza and West Bank, area's who Israel both controls did not vote for this guy (yes Israel controls Gaza).

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I would argue that without the backing of the US, Israel would probably have been forced to agree to peace.
Right now what true incentive does Israel have for any kind of solution?
Right now Israel can just evict Palestinians from there homes whenever they feel like it and just bomb Gaza when it's convenient for them.

I really don't see what Israel has to gain right now by allowing Palestinians to be able to form a government and build a country.

Ah yeah I'd say it'd take at least 10 years of good diplomatic efforts to get back to a reasonable point. Problem is I don't think Israel has a choice. This situation can't last forever. Eventually they will be told to stop. When that happens, they're going to be in trouble.

What's happening right now is in no one's long term interest, apart from Netanyahu personally.

[Easo]

As per IDF - ~3100 rockets fired, 1210 intercepted, 450 fell back into Gaza. That means rest hit nothing and that more than hundred reached their targets (90% efficiency of Iron Dome). There were also some attempts at suicide drones, but those have all been intercepted so far.

Btw, those talks about colonialism. Nothing of the sort was said when Turkey resettled few thousand of Palestinian refugees in the Kurdish city of Afrin. Yes, the same one in Syria. Oh, sorry, ex-Kurdish city xD

Tell that to Hamas who keep firing rockets at Israel then whining when Israel claps back. Sorry but no side is more right than another here and it is dishonest to believe so.

Oh but they specifically fire them to have that response from Israel. Because then the world starts crying and it is exactly what Hamas wants, to have everyone point finger at Israel. They are perfectly aware of the West's aversion to civilian casualties and are exploiting it to the max. Hamas and others have no such qualms themselves, of course. Just call everyone martyrs, works well enough.

There won't be an intra-Israeli civil war as long as hearing sirens in major metros from Hamas rockets is a recent memory for most Israelis.

The worst civil war they'll get is another election without a ruling majority. Ironically, Netanyahu could've already been out and Arabs been established in a ruling majority, had Hamas not gone on a rocket spree during coalition formation talks.

Yep, there were talks of anti-Likud coalition purely for the sake of getting Bibi out of power, with basically everyone joining it, including Arab parties to get that majority.
Suffice to say that having Arabs in coalition is now off the tables since the rocket attacks started, political suicide for everyone involved. Hamas enjoys that, of course.

The article actually describes well what happens when the government tries to control them. It's not a numbers game. It's not a matter of believing it. The problem is already there and is already out of hand.

Hammer will come down, if needed. I will stand by what I said that there is no real prospect of civil war in Israel with Jews vs Jews.
Also I really doubt that ultras right now are enjoying being in the 2nd public collapse and deaths spotlight.

Those terrorist attacks are far less harmful than Israel's attacks on Palestine.

That is your headcanon and basically the opposite of what you and some others have said. This pretty much straight up reads that Israel should not answer just because terrorists cannot kill Jews effectively enough to elicit answer. This can easily be interpreted as blaming Israel for being too good at defense.

55 children killed in the last week alone.

If you're gonna claim that Hamas is targeting civilians and children, when Israel kills orders of magnitudes more of both, you're being a deliberate hypocrite to support a regime engaged in ethnic cleansing.

I repeat; even if you want to make the argument that Hamas is using civilians as human shields and hostages, if your response to that is to kill the human shields/hostages, you're the worse villain of the two of you.

"But think of the children!" Really, Endus? Oh, and if you are gonna argue that Hamas are not targeting civilians specifically... Yeah, you cannot be more disingenious and biased than that. Could also talk about child soldiers, but what's the point.

Came to me a bit late, but I'll also point out nobody takes issue with Israel's defensive tools like the Iron Dome. That's not what the outcry's about, at all.

Oh, ask Themius. He does. Or Washington Post, IIRC. There were others too. Because the system is too good therefore, something something "not fair".

[Cringefest]

As per IDF - ~3100 rockets fired, 1210 intercepted, 450 fell back into Gaza. That means rest hit nothing and that more than hundred reached their targets (90% efficiency of Iron Dome). There were also some attempts at suicide drones, but those have all been intercepted so far.

Btw, those talks about colonialism. Nothing of the sort was said when Turkey resettled few thousand of Palestinian refugees in the Kurdish city of Afrin. Yes, the same one in Syria. Oh, sorry, ex-Kurdish city xD



Oh but they specifically fire them to have that response from Israel. Because then the world starts crying and it is exactly what Hamas wants, to have everyone point finger at Israel. They are perfectly aware of the West's aversion to civilian casualties and are exploiting it to the max. Hamas and others have no such qualms themselves, of course. Just call everyone martyrs, works well enough.



Yep, there were talks of anti-Likud coalition purely for the sake of getting Bibi out of power, with basically everyone joining it, including Arab parties to get that majority.
Suffice to say that having Arabs in coalition is now off the tables since the rocket attacks started, political suicide for everyone involved. Hamas enjoys that, of course.



Hammer will come down, if needed. I will stand by what I said that there is no real prospect of civil war in Israel with Jews vs Jews.
Also I really doubt that ultras right now are enjoying being in the 2nd public collapse and deaths spotlight.



That is your headcanon and basically the opposite of what you and some others have said. This pretty much straight up reads that Israel should not answer just because terrorists cannot kill Jews effectively enough to elicit answer. This can easily be interpreted as blaming Israel for being too good at defense.



"But think of the children!" Really, Endus? Oh, and if you are gonna argue that Hamas are not targeting civilians specifically... Yeah, you cannot be more disingenious and biased than that. Could also talk about child soldiers, but what's the point.



Oh, ask Themius. He does. Or Washington Post, IIRC. There were others too. Because the system is too good therefore, something something "not fair".

There's a big difference between self defence and excess of self defence. Also, what Israel is doing is not working in terms of finding a long lasting solution. The US might not be able to keep defending them, or they might not be able to stay at the top of the game forever. It's in the interest of Israeli people to stop bombing and try to find long term peace. Which is doable by the way, it's not utopia. The Northern Ireland peace process stands as an example of that.

There's nothing unique, or special, or extremely complex in the Israel/Palestine conflict. If efforts are made from both sides towards a two state solution, they will fix things, otherwise, they won't.

[ati87]

Ah yeah I'd say it'd take at least 10 years of good diplomatic efforts to get back to a reasonable point. Problem is I don't think Israel has a choice. This situation can't last forever. Eventually they will be told to stop. When that happens, they're going to be in trouble.

What's happening right now is in no one's long term interest, apart from Netanyahu personally.

I disagree the current situation can go on as long as world leaders never really punish Israel.
What kind of punishment has Israel ever suffered for those settlements?
This was a article from 2009, the day that Biden as VP landed in Israel announced new settlements what kind of message did this send to Biden at that time.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...6271YE20100310

What's happening right now is in no one's long term interest, apart from Netanyahu personally.

Israeli citizens don't see it like this though, Netanyahu goes more extreem every election because that's the only way to stay in power. Netanyahu is to some degree unpopular because he is selfish basterd that probably has some serious daddy issues but the alternative isn't really that much better.

[Mihalik]

There's a big difference between self defence and excess of self defence. Also, what Israel is doing is not working in terms of finding a long lasting solution. The US might not be able to keep defending them, or they might not be able to stay at the top of the game forever. It's in the interest of Israeli people to stop bombing and try to find long term peace. Which is doable by the way, it's not utopia. The Northern Ireland peace process stands as an example of that.

There's nothing unique, or special, or extremely complex in the Israel/Palestine conflict. If efforts are made from both sides towards a two state solution, they will fix things, otherwise, they won't.

Israel has absolutely no intentions to ever see the implementation of a two state solution.

It never did. Whatever it might or might have not said out loud actions speak for themselves.

Ignoring the ongoing conflict itself, if one looks at the way Israel has been building its infrastructure, distributing settlements, managing resources like arable land and water, a self evident pattern emerges.

The Palestinian territories are gradually split up, segmented and dismembered in a way to prevent the emergence of viable social and administrative structures.

Communities are split up and separated by settler lands and highways are fenced off and Palestinian are barred from entering, crossing, using. Arable land is either destroyed by restricted water access or is taken over by settlers.

Importation of construction materials is restricted to prevent Palestinians from rebuilding. It's a slow game, but it works, destroy 10 buildings/farms, only allow 7 to be rebuilt, and replace the 3 with a settlement. Eventually you just squeeze the Palestinians out of their lands.

This is a process that has been ongoing for 70years, under every administration and even when Israel was allegedly engaged in talks or would restrict settlements.

Israel has never for a moment seriously entertained the idea of a two state solution. It's objective has always been and remains being the full displacement of Palestinians (or their reduction into a small manageable minority) and a creation of unified Israeli states that includes all Palestinian territories.

[Cringefest]

I disagree the current situation can go on as long as world leaders never really punish Israel.
What kind of punishment has Israel ever suffered for those settlements?
This was a article from 2009, the day that Biden as VP landed in Israel announced new settlements what kind of message did this send to Biden at that time.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...6271YE20100310


Israeli citizens don't see it like this though, Netanyahu goes more extreem every election because that's the only way to stay in power. Netanyahu is to some degree unpopular because he is selfish basterd that probably has some serious daddy issues but the alternative isn't really that much better.

Not sure. I would have agreed with you a few years ago, but now that the US is panicking, China rising, I don't know. China is fairly open about how they want Israel to behave. I really can't see this going on forever.