Solution for M+ leavers....

[Fenrys]

The way this game work it is a lie you are not doing more damage than people who are 15 ilvls higher than you, you just aren't. That's literally a full tier of gear difference and it's the first tier which has insane scaling. There are plenty of bad players no doubt but gear is the most important thing in this game in terms of performance especially when you are claiming they are 1300 which means they have at least done ksm.

Assuming equal skill (and damage profile of the class - pull cadence hurts some classes more than others), around 15 ilvls would be about 15% damage difference. Given that dps differences we see often are far greater than that indicating skill is a more dominant factor, it is perfectly possible for someone who is playing their class well with 15 ilvls difference to outdps a poorly played higher ilvl players. I regularly outdps players in the lower key range on my undergeared alts.

[Crimson Spears]

Assuming equal skill (and damage profile of the class - pull cadence hurts some classes more than others), around 15 ilvls would be about 15% damage difference. Given that dps differences we see often are far greater than that indicating skill is a more dominant factor, it is perfectly possible for someone who is playing their class well with 15 ilvls difference to outdps a poorly played higher ilvl players. I regularly outdps players in the lower key range on my undergeared alts.

I mean no but I can see how if you simplified it that makes sense. What usually happens is a keystone slot is changed out. Using a different trinket you can only reasonably get at higher ilv can have a truly massive effect especially since its strength is further multiplied in burst windows and external cds like power infusion.

In the very low brackets I agree but in higher up it usually comes down more to setups then ilv.

[tehealadin]

tried doing +22 hoa...

curse of obliteration goes off constantly... someone dies from it every time... then people blame me?

uh, hello? you're 2 people who can dispel it... mage and shaman... you can also interrupt it...

nope, my job to dispel it...

my job to dispel a curse... as a priest...

"i dispel every time i play healer"...

yeah... you play a resto shaman as healer... not a priest...

how do these people even get to 2k rio without knowing that priests can't dispel curses?

I feel your pain. I remember on my healer getting shit from a druid for not decursing. We had a druid tank, mage, boomy and ele. Not one of them used it. 2 genuinely didn't know they could. Another refused to on the grounds they weren't a healer.

On the general issue of leavers, there is nothing you can really do, it is a risk you take when you group with players. Any "solution" brings a new set of problems which would then need a new solution to fix, and would most likely introduce new issues. It sucks when someone fucks your key. However that is the risk you take.

[Goatfish]

Assuming equal skill (and damage profile of the class - pull cadence hurts some classes more than others), around 15 ilvls would be about 15% damage difference. Given that dps differences we see often are far greater than that indicating skill is a more dominant factor, it is perfectly possible for someone who is playing their class well with 15 ilvls difference to outdps a poorly played higher ilvl players. I regularly outdps players in the lower key range on my undergeared alts.

Totally this. I have outdps'd an ele shaman nearly 30 ilvl higher because they were a tard who didn't understand the basics of their class. My mage regularly joins pugs and does nearly double the dps of similarly geared frost mages because they haven't bothered to learn how to properly rotate cd's or how their class functions.

Ilvl is a joke and a crutch. It exists so that bad people can blame a 50%-100% dps difference on 10 or 15 ilvl instead of looking in the mirror and figuring out what they are doing wrong. Everyone keeps looking for RIO or gearscore to tell them who the good players are, when the answer is to make friends and don't ever run with pugs unless absolutely necessary. I recently came back to the game after a long break, and actually had people laughing at linking my realm first Yogg+0 achieve as proof that I wasn't an idiot. If anything, the problem with RIO is that people want you to have greater score than what you need to have in order to do the content you need to do to raise your score. It's like refusing to invite anyone for a H-Sire kill who doesn't already have aotc thus drastically lowering the number of new people who can get aotc.

There really isn't any way to fix this, we live in an instant gratification generation. As soon as anything is slightly difficult, the majority of people will jet instead of offering aid or working harder. They want to do dungeons or raids without talking to anyone and by putting in as little effort as necessary.

[Relapses]

Totally this. I have outdps'd an ele shaman nearly 30 ilvl higher because they were a tard who didn't understand the basics of their class. My mage regularly joins pugs and does nearly double the dps of similarly geared frost mages because they haven't bothered to learn how to properly rotate cd's or how their class functions.

Ilvl is a joke and a crutch. It exists so that bad people can blame a 50%-100% dps difference on 10 or 15 ilvl instead of looking in the mirror and figuring out what they are doing wrong. Everyone keeps looking for RIO or gearscore to tell them who the good players are, when the answer is to make friends and don't ever run with pugs unless absolutely necessary. I recently came back to the game after a long break, and actually had people laughing at linking my realm first Yogg+0 achieve as proof that I wasn't an idiot. If anything, the problem with RIO is that people want you to have greater score than what you need to have in order to do the content you need to do to raise your score. It's like refusing to invite anyone for a H-Sire kill who doesn't already have aotc thus drastically lowering the number of new people who can get aotc.

There really isn't any way to fix this, we live in an instant gratification generation. As soon as anything is slightly difficult, the majority of people will jet instead of offering aid or working harder. They want to do dungeons or raids without talking to anyone and by putting in as little effort as necessary.

To be fair my dude, linking an achievement from more than a decade ago to prove relevance in current-tier content is a bit of a meme. This entire post reads like somebody who is getting declined from groups and wants to blame everything except themselves as the reason for it.

[Goatfish]

To be fair my dude, linking an achievement from more than a decade ago to prove relevance in current-tier content is a bit of a meme. This entire post reads like somebody who is getting declined from groups and wants to blame everything except themselves as the reason for it.

I mean I could link any number of other mythic and heroic achievements to prove I'm not a horrible player. Just because I started late into the patch after a several year break and don't have 300 current mythics under my belt doesn't mean anything as far as my skill level. The point is that people are using an add-on to judge people's fitness for groups, when the add-on is only accurate in extreme cases on the positive side.

I'm not saying I have a solution to the problem, but I am saying that people who are doing such are not only potentially depriving themselves of good returning players, but also contributing to the lack of knowledge of learning players. Instead of helping others, people just hearth out mid dungeon because they don't want to take responsibility. WoW is an MMO, that means you play with and interact with other people and are responsible for how you interact with them. I've met plenty of people who went from shitters to fantastic players with a little guidance. If you want more good players, you have to actually teach them because it's rare they just pop up. I know it doesn't jive with much of our current generations way of thinking though, as they just want everything handed to them on a platter and don't want to become the teacher.

P.S: Anyone with lengthy experience in WoW understands what a feat Death's Demise (Realm First Yogg+0) is. Most guilds didn't have a chance at beating that fight until they already had the next heroic raid tier on farm, and even then they were looking at a struggle. 10 years ago or not, just the fact that I have it proves that I understand the game better than the overwhelming majority of players and can handle basically anything Blizzard dreams up. There is a reason I successfully ran a heroic raiding guild for many years, and that reason is not shown by an add-on that assigns arbitrary numbers to gear or dungeons completed. I've learned as a GM, is that if a player ever decides to take the game seriously, they don't stop. They can quit for years and when they return they are looking at guides, practicing rotations, and quickly return to being a good player again. Long story short, it's a good litmus test because those that understand this view the achievement with positivity, and those who don't understand generally aren't worth the time anyways. To put it in other terms, Mike Tyson hasn't been a pro boxer for 16 years and spent a lot of his retirement stoned out of his mind. Even given that, very few people would want to step into the ring with him now because they know they wouldn't stand a chance.

But you are free to your opinion and can believe that I'm just blaming others for my failure. I would keep in mind that my "failure" you are referring to just happens to be "not playing the game for 3-4 years, and therefore not having high current RIO stats".

[Relapses]

But you are free to your opinion and can believe that I'm just blaming others for my failure. I would keep in mind that my "failure" you are referring to just happens to be "not playing the game for 3-4 years, and therefore not having high current RIO stats".

This is a you problem, not a R.IO problem or even a WoW problem. Returning players on their own are a minority. Returning players looking to jump right into the hardest difficulty content out there without anybody to vouch for their skill in the game and instead hope to rest on the laurels of their past successes are a minority of that minority. There are far, far more players who've been active for the entirety of a season who've obtained their IO the same way you're dreading having to do yourself: By grinding it out from the ground up. Why should the game fundamentally change because some dude with sweet achievements from 2008 feels like he's entitled to the same treatment as a window licker who's managed to time enough 15s to be considered moderately acceptable by the community's arbitrary, completely unreasonable standards?

[erifwodahs]

I mean I could link any number of other mythic and heroic achievements to prove I'm not a horrible player. Just because I started late into the patch after a several year break and don't have 300 current mythics under my belt doesn't mean anything as far as my skill level. The point is that people are using an add-on to judge people's fitness for groups, when the add-on is only accurate in extreme cases on the positive side.

It's measuring a chance of a player not being shit. It doesn't measure anyone skill level, just experience. More/higher XP = better chance that he is not a shitter.
Why do people think that we use this addon as skill measure...?

Literally nothing else. And if you are a good player, going through ranks in rio is quite easy and you make few friends along the way too.

As a GM, for your last boss progression would you recruit someone with current 9/10M exp and gear. or someone who just came back to the game, has okayish gear and links achievement which tells you nothing unless you know what it is and know actual dates when that was actually relevant. For the argument sake their personalities are indifferent.

[Sanshou]

I know i'll get hate for this, but how about removing cross realm from being able to start a M+.
The issue with M+ is, by design, its difficult and making a single mistake can cost you the run. If you are in a set group, you make a mistake, fail a key, your group members are far more forgiving than a pug (that will insult you and leave after 1 wipe). By restricting it, you help grow communities where a learning culture can be achieved rather than a rat race.

I honestly don't think Blizzard have the man hours on their GM's to police M+ behaviour, for example if they had a 'report system' how are they going to wade through the ocean of "HE BAD MADE MY KEY FAIL F*** HIM!" reports to find the real toxic ones. Making a mistake is not a reportable offence. Likewise if they make leaving impact someones M+ score, whats to stop a troll from just afking and forcing the punishment on the rest of the group?

[Alexeht]

the best solution would be to remove m+ which completely destroyed the raiding community IMO

[thunderdragon2]

. Likewise if they make leaving impact someones M+ score, whats to stop a troll from just afking and forcing the punishment on the rest of the group?

this 1 is simple if you join a group in a m+ since you cant replace people then go afk and not return just to spite people so you dont lose score iirc it constitutes as greifing which IS a banable offence in blizzards eyes

[Twdft]

Just because I started late into the patch after a several year break and don't have 300 current mythics under my belt doesn't mean anything as far as my skill level.

So here is the thing: experience is king in mythic+. Skill certainly is very useful, but you'll die to the first pull in pretty much any dungeon if you don't know from experience which mob has a front ae etc.

So do as everyone else did: climb your way through low keys and raise your score. Everyone started at 0, noone is entitled a shortcut to high keys.

[Relapses]

this 1 is simple if you join a group in a m+ since you cant replace people then go afk and not return just to spite people so you dont lose score iirc it constitutes as greifing which IS a banable offence in blizzards eyes

There's no way in hell Blizzard has the CS bandwidth to police the millions of keys players participate in every month. The less interaction Blizzard has with people's keys the better.

[thunderdragon2]

There's no way in hell Blizzard has the CS bandwidth to police the millions of keys players participate in every month. The less interaction Blizzard has with people's keys the better.

true but still im pretty sure its classed as greifing

[Goatfish]

It's measuring a chance of a player not being shit. It doesn't measure anyone skill level, just experience. More/higher XP = better chance that he is not a shitter.
Why do people think that we use this addon as skill measure...?

Literally nothing else. And if you are a good player, going through ranks in rio is quite easy and you make few friends along the way too.

As a GM, for your last boss progression would you recruit someone with current 9/10M exp and gear. or someone who just came back to the game, has okayish gear and links achievement which tells you nothing unless you know what it is and know actual dates when that was actually relevant. For the argument sake their personalities are indifferent.

I'd be willing to bring both to tryouts because I'm not an elitist who thinks gear or current experience is everything. As I said, I've come across several people who started off as mediocre players that became really good with a little guidance. The players I want in my raid are those willing to take advice openly. If someone were to apply saying they were a returning player and had years of heroic/mythic achievements under their belt, they are definitely worth a look and you would be an absolute fool or asshole to deny them the chance. As far as knowing whether dates are actually relevant, that's what google is for. A serious guild is going to have an application process that includes vetting time and tryouts.

- - - Updated - - -

So here is the thing: experience is king in mythic+. Skill certainly is very useful, but you'll die to the first pull in pretty much any dungeon if you don't know from experience which mob has a front ae etc.

So do as everyone else did: climb your way through low keys and raise your score. Everyone started at 0, noone is entitled a shortcut to high keys.

It takes doing the dungeon maybe 1-2 times to learn those if you actually pay attention. You can assume any actually skilled player is going to learn quickly what things need interrupted, purged, or dodged. Very few things in the game have non-obvious mechanics anymore. This isn't a claim of entitlement, it's merely pointing out the flaws of an add-on that all you folks feel like placing on a pedestal as the holy grail. You understand your argument amounts to "I know it has issues but too fucking bad. You just need to deal with it because I want to cling to it as my lord and savior."?

I'm not saying I have a better method, any system used is going to have flaws. That doesn't mean that I am somehow not allowed to point out the biggest 2 issues which are that it doesn't catch returning players, and the point of this thread, that people would rather leave mid dungeon rather than help other players get better and raise their scores.

[erifwodahs]

I'd be willing to bring both to tryouts because I'm not an elitist who thinks gear or current experience is everything. As I said, I've come across several people who started off as mediocre players that became really good with a little guidance. The players I want in my raid are those willing to take advice openly. If someone were to apply saying they were a returning player and had years of heroic/mythic achievements under their belt, they are definitely worth a look and you would be an absolute fool or asshole to deny them the chance. As far as knowing whether dates are actually relevant, that's what google is for. A serious guild is going to have an application process that includes vetting time and tryouts.

Exactly. This is how it goes normally and if you want to have a fair chance to do dungeons you apply to a consistent group. But what we are doing in game while pugging is not that. We are snap judging people with time vs result. I guess if you are doing +25, you would be doing checks on everyone, because result really really matters, but if you are doing a +15, you don't want to spend 35mins looking everyone up.

What you don't have while pugging m+:

"Chances" - you have one key. There is no trial.
Time - you don't want to be looking up every individual and talking to them. You can, look at their dungeon run history, but surely not a fleshed out discord interview or achievement checks.

So... Who would you pick based on CURRENT stats if the most you can do is score and dungeon run history and you need that person to be able to carry his weight. Also let's not forget you have 50 other applicants and you want to finish your group assembly in under 10minutes.

[GnomeEU]

Define "leaver"... If a player DCs from the server, is that a "leaver"? If multiple people want to leave the dungeon is it everyone that gets a "leaver" count or just the first?

If it is only the first person that "leaves" that gets a "leaver count", what prevents players from either non-participation (at best) or purposely sabotage (at worse) to force someone else to leave first?

If you dc multiple times per week. In a way that others have to cancel the run then yes, it should count as a leave.

It's not like you care about it when you're disconnected all day anyway.

[Relapses]

It's not like you care about it when you're disconnected all day anyway.

So for those attempting to play with an intermittent connection and on top of already dealing with bullshit internet, you want to enact penalties for the people who are just trying to play the fucking game? Please never design a video game.

[Alroxas]

It's not like you care about it when you're disconnected all day anyway.

Missing my point so let me rephrase:

DC's on purpose is the same as logging out or quitting the dungeon for any reason. Could be legitimate to being a jerk to whatever reason.

The issue is that if your punishment system is just detecting a DC (or even multiple DC's in a week), the solution to get around it is to either (at best) be a non-participant in the run to (at worse) being a purposely negative player.

In the first case, it's as simple as standing near the dungeon entrance and moving just enough to stop the anti-afk timer.

In the later case, it's about doing all the "bad" things that would cause a group to wipe repeatedly to force someone else to leave first so they get the leaver/DC penalty.

Examples:

• As a tank, "accidentally" pulling extra packs that you know will overwhelm you and the group.
• As a DPS, "accidentally" pulling extra packs
• As a healer, "accidentally" healing very poorly.
• As any player, "accidentally" pulling the boss while trash is still up.
• As any player, "accidentally" breaking CC.

Do enough little mistakes that cause wipes and blame it on poor gameplay to allow someone else to leave first and take the penalty, the instigator can leave without penalty.

- - - Updated - - -

I know i'll get hate for this, but how about removing cross realm from being able to start a M+.

Ha, you might as well remove flying from WoW entirely... That's how well that idea is going to go.

The issue with M+ is, by design, its difficult and making a single mistake can cost you the run.

Disagree. Plenty of groups have timed a +15 with a few deaths and even with a wipe. Totally dependent on the dungeon design and other factors like affixes. For instance, Tyrannical week and you wipe on a boss with TW and pride? Sure. But on a fortified week in Plaguefall? You might be able to make it up.

I honestly don't think Blizzard have the man hours on their GM's to police M+ behaviour, for example if they had a 'report system' ..

Hence no report system and instead the current hands off approach. Let players govern themselves in who they choose to play with. Pick wisely and you will probably have a good run. Pick poorly, get a ruined key. Pick mediocrely? Get something in the middle.

- - - Updated - - -

this 1 is simple if you join a group in a m+ since you cant replace people then go afk and not return just to spite people so you dont lose score iirc it constitutes as greifing which IS a banable offence in blizzards eyes

So then instead of afk, the player just then moves just enough to avoid Afk-timer. Or how about this: they only use their filler spell. Never once casts their DPS cooldowns. Are they trolling? Or are they just a noob? How do you tell?

Is there a threshold on using abilities? What about non-DPS abilities? Is a mage bad if he/she doesn't ever use the decurse ability?

[Goatfish]

Exactly. This is how it goes normally and if you want to have a fair chance to do dungeons you apply to a consistent group. But what we are doing in game while pugging is not that. We are snap judging people with time vs result. I guess if you are doing +25, you would be doing checks on everyone, because result really really matters, but if you are doing a +15, you don't want to spend 35mins looking everyone up.

What you don't have while pugging m+:

"Chances" - you have one key. There is no trial.
Time - you don't want to be looking up every individual and talking to them. You can, look at their dungeon run history, but surely not a fleshed out discord interview or achievement checks.

So... Who would you pick based on CURRENT stats if the most you can do is score and dungeon run history and you need that person to be able to carry his weight. Also let's not forget you have 50 other applicants and you want to finish your group assembly in under 10minutes.

I would argue an addon that shows average dps/hps, interrupts, and damage taken to avoidable mechanics would be worth more than RIO. I've known plenty of capitalist individuals who buy their way to good gear or timed runs. I've also known plenty more bad people who get carried constantly because they get carried by guildies or friends who are far better than them. Ideally, to answer your question, I would never have to pug, but my guild is currently on vacation because of the unending content drought.

Again, the point is that it is better to improve the community instead. This is an ongoing problem irl as well as in game. People are more focused on themselves and don't care if community burns down as long as they get what they want, not realizing that by doing so they are less likely to get what they want in the long run.