Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War? The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron?

[VinceVega]

Horde also got fucked.

For example, The forsaken can't rise more forsaken anymore, so they are doomed to the extintion. Dont worry if they retake Undercity.

If the alliance at the end had few troops, the horde has even fewer.



Nathanos claimed that alliance was beating horde in every front, this means that also on land. Horde had major defeats on darkshore and arathi, which implied a superiority of alliance's forces on land.

Fleet is not that important when you can travel with portals.

Alliance just need Varok's help to siege orgrimmar, because To besiege a fortification you need a great numerical superiority. (Horde didn't have enought manpower to siege Stormwind before the war start...).

Probably the alliance forces were bigger than Varok+sylvanas forces at the end of the war.

Well forsaken making new forsaken is fishy-buisness in the first place. They rip them back out of the, maybe better, afterlive and then build their whole lif around suffering...

[TrueHorde]

... Why is this even a question? The Horde lost the war before it had even begun.

There is no reason why Gilneas and Lordaeron haven't been retaken. The Undercity and Silvermoon were the Horde's only major footholds in the EK. With the Undercity gone, pretty much everything south of Eversong is Alliance territory. There is nothing stopping the Alliance from just rolling up to Silvermoon and taking the city, other than the Alliance being ludicrously gracious. The Alliance has total naval superiority and can blockade Silvermoon (hell, could probably do an Anaconda plan around Kalimdor!) and starve out Silvermoon if they want to. Or the Alliance can have their airships and gyrocopters perform a firebombing campaign and level Silvermoon into dust. Same with Suramar. The Alliance can systematically deal with every Horde faction. They performed a D-day invasion of Durotar and invaded Orgrimmar back in MoP, and only left because Varian was a nice guy. And the Alliance blew up Zandalar's fleet in the last expansion.

As for Ashenvale, it probably has Horde lumber operations and that's it. With Theramore and Teldrassil destroyed, the only real Alliance foothold in Kalimdor is on the Azuremyst Isles, on the Exodar. IIRC in lore the Exodar was repaired in one of the Cata novels. So theoretically the Exodar can be flown anywhere. It could fly to the EK, load up Alliance armies, fly back to Kalimdor, fly over a Horde city, and unload its army in the middle of an unprepared city and capture it and take the residents hostage. Also, the Alliance also has the Vindicaar.

Seriously. The Alliance can take whatever they want. The status of Ashenvale and the Horde cities is completely up to whether or not the Alliance leaders decideto stop being schmucks who keep letting the Horde get off scott free and actually start acting in their self interests.

If I lived in the Warcraft universe, I'd promptly surrender to the nearest Alliance base and join their side, because holy crap the Horde simply will not exist once writers stop propping it up and reality is allowed to take its course. At least, I'm pretty sure I will be better off sitting in a POW camp rather than a Horde city that is going to be Carthaged.

kek...you know, Horde bias

[VladlTutushkin]

The fact that restorative magic was required after the fact renders the "non-lethal" point questionable. also "for the greater good" logic is still poor reasoning. Also one character falling over limp and frothing at the mouth...

This isn't justification for stopping parties that are clearly found to be non-soldiers to do with as one pleases



I think we have a number of threads about various figureheads and their willingness to comply with actions they're not pleased with. Also "least they didn't die" small positive i guess. I'm gonna have to go back and read cause I remember it being an Orc mother put to the question, an apothecary that was taken into custody immediately while the rest of the bunch dropped off the story as things transitioned... then it moved to a "smuggler" with reference to a "father" and the "smuggler" going limp and "perhaps dead".... actually it seems more than 2 people were hit up by Alleria and Turalyon...

This isn't the horde but the vaunted alliance with their holier than though charge of condemning evil for the sake of justice. Or at least that was the case.... cuase now even the Naive Boy King is growing to have a taste for the dirty business and no one is there to smack sense in him.

It's funny how you want to argue this now. we have no idea about what made those characters move as they did and are you suggesting that civilians raise their arms to overpower the now super soldier level covert ops forces that can damn near solo platoons of soldiers?

Is that just me or you trying to overblow a situation to make horde look better or throw shade at Alliance when they deserve none of that dirt slinging?

Because it looks like that. Lets not just act like shitty lawyers because this situation is not worth time discussing and as long as orc and smuggler are alive it is even less worthy of besmirching entire fucken Alliance over it.

[Tyrannica]

Alliance, obviously.

But i did not like the 4th war.

It pales in comparission to the previous wars.

Not too many big battles happened?

And what i especially dislike, there was not 1 final and huge battle to decide a clear winner.

A duel in front of OG? But no Siege of OG V2.0.

That was underwhelming!

Started good with the Battle of Lorderon and Ashenvale, but ended meh.

[mickybrighteyes]

Is that just me or you trying to overblow a situation to make horde look better or throw shade at Alliance when they deserve none of that dirt slinging?

Because it looks like that. Lets not just act like shitty lawyers because this situation is not worth time discussing and as long as orc and smuggler are alive it is even less worthy of besmirching entire fucken Alliance over it.

So.... This is where you want to take this now? I point out how Anduin is totally fine with torture now and said torture was directed at what can only be defined as random travelers (as far as the soldiers could determine) and your first counter point was "yeah well Nathanos and other horde figures have done that and worse!" and then more about how the travelers deserved it because they were uppity.... and then it's me trying to overblow a situation?

Well I'm about to type something I didn't think I'd type... I agree with Jaina here. Shits fucked.

[VladlTutushkin]

So.... This is where you want to take this now? I point out how Anduin is totally fine with torture now and said torture was directed at what can only be defined as random travelers (as far as the soldiers could determine) and your first counter point was "yeah well Nathanos and other horde figures have done that and worse!" and then more about how the travelers deserved it because they were uppity.... and then it's me trying to overblow a situation?

Well I'm about to type something I didn't think I'd type... I agree with Jaina here. Shits fucked.

Because we talking about a King ruling over who knows how many humans and also being a High King over entire Alliance.

Not to mention that he essentially told night elfs to go pound sand because its peace with the Horde or bust and they can get over the genocide or cry in the corner because Alliance not going to help them.

Some orc getting mind-read and a smuggler are small fry in comparison and frankly wouldnt bother someone dealing with ruling over a superpower.

[mickybrighteyes]

Because we talking about a King ruling over who knows how many humans and also being a High King over entire Alliance.

Also the character who historically saw the good in everyone. Sparring those responsible for the greatest body counts or granting freedom to war criminals. Staring down evil to show the better way...

Well now they're giving in to exactly what they stood against for no real return beyond letting them say they did *something*

On one hand he gives a homeless vagabond a new lease on life and in the next moment casually allows another to get smothered.

Some orc getting mind-read and a smuggler are small fry in comparison and frankly wouldnt bother someone dealing with ruling over a superpower.

An orc mother, an Apothecary, a Smuggler.... possibly a "father" as well somewhere along the way. Kind of makes things go sideways when we have a land traveling group in one scene and someone with a boat in the next at a totally different location.

Fact remains that this is an indication of the "heart and soul" of the faction leadership turning dark.

but go ahead and gloss over the fact because others have done worse for less

[VladlTutushkin]

Also the character who historically saw the good in everyone. Sparring those responsible for the greatest body counts or granting freedom to war criminals. Staring down evil to show the better way...

Well now they're giving in to exactly what they stood against for no real return beyond letting them say they did *something*

On one hand he gives a homeless vagabond a new lease on life and in the next moment casually allows another to get smothered.

An orc mother, an Apothecary, a Smuggler.... possibly a "father" as well somewhere along the way. Kind of makes things go sideways when we have a land traveling group in one scene and someone with a boat in the next at a totally different location.

Fact remains that this is an indication of the "heart and soul" of the faction leadership turning dark.

but go ahead and gloss over the fact because others have done worse for less

You just acting like a tabloid trying to accuse someone of racism right now.

Lets put it this way - if Anduin allowed SI7 to kidnap and torture people around the world in hopes of finding some clues about Sylvanas then yes we could be talking about some “dark” turn.

If he ordered a hunt for “loyalists” and Alliance forces also killed a lot of non-loyalists or those who genuinely changed their mind then also that would be dark.

What happened was “slightly darker then usual” but not like “oh noes its literally Arthas now look bros”.

I know you hordelets always desperate for some shit to sling at Alliance like puppies for a bone but lets stay grounded, alright?

I am both hands for strangling mother with her child’s guts (or vice versa) and then killing whole caravan and making it look like a murloc attack but since nothing of the sort happened then you have no right to badmouth entire Alliance and Anduin (despite the fact that i hate the whimp).

[geco]

What Anduin does to allow torture is white compared to what he does to the Kaldorei and how he treats Tyrande de Loca for asking for justice.

And even so if he does not have percutions in the story it does not matter. It's just a comment on the book. If the war does not last, it will end in nothing.

PS: it's my thing. But the Wardens are the "secret police" and in the end they are the least tortured of all sides.

[loras]

Horde also got fucked.

For example, The forsaken can't rise more forsaken anymore, so they are doomed to the extintion. Dont worry if they retake Undercity.

If the alliance at the end had few troops, the horde has even fewer.



Nathanos claimed that alliance was beating horde in every front, this means that also on land. Horde had major defeats on darkshore and arathi, which implied a superiority of alliance's forces on land.

Fleet is not that important when you can travel with portals.

Alliance just need Varok's help to siege orgrimmar, because To besiege a fortification you need a great numerical superiority. (Horde didn't have enought manpower to siege Stormwind before the war start...).

Probably the alliance forces were bigger than Varok+sylvanas forces at the end of the war.

My thoughts exactly.

[OwenBurton]

On one hand, the Alliance managed some incredibly risky subterfuge by recruiting a deserter to assist in overthrowing the warchief, ultimately succeeding and even being welcomed, even temporarily, into Orgrimmar. Anduin accomplished what even his father could not. but on the other the Horde has gotten away with surprisingly little consequences for the damage done so I'd hardly say they lost that badly.

Shadow's Rising went into it really well I think. It's around page 137-139 that the night elves and Horde leaders have their discussion on the aftermath of the war.

From a certain perspective, the Horde might have arguably...not "won" the Fourth War, per se - but gained more positive benefits.
- The Warchief position is abolished, the Horde Council represents all its diverse races equally, binding them ever closer together, Thrall and his family have returned from exile as firm supporters of the Horde, Lilian Voss leads the Forsaken, Calia and Derek are Horde members, the unpopular Gallywix is removed, Ratchet is possibly allied formally with the Horde via Gazlowe.

- The Alliance has been weakened and fractured, and lacks a representative council, led only by a "High King" whose policies are probably controversial at best, even in Legion, there were indications most citizens far preferred Varian; the night elves refused to have any contact with Anduin afterwards, even Genn is upset at him. It is unlikely that all the other leaders are obsessed with him; even Aysa mentioned that Varian was a far more capable sparring partner.

And while Tyrande apparently survives the Night Warrior, we must remember she is still apparently defeated by Sylvanas later, and there is no guarantee of her permanent survival either. Perhaps she stays in Ardenweald forever or something at its end, to bring her people healing or something. Anduin has apparently become corrupted, and the interviews indicate that this will have a lasting impact upon his character development. And as for Turalyon..."the golden one claims an vacant throne, the crown of light will bring only darkness." So it's not necessarily that positive for his future either (possible Lightbound reference) - and his own loyalties might be divided if Calia (resurrected by a naaru) challenges him to fight for the people of Lordaeron, their people, over that of Stormwind.

In essence, the Horde is newly reunited, with a fresh new beginning, and changed for the better - and the Alliance is slowly divided, and changed for the worse.

About Lordaeron, I am curious - does Exploring Azeroth mention Tirisfal Glades at all? Is it returned to the Forsaken control? There are some humans remaining there, with these propaganda pamphlets:

"Sadly, the Traitor King of the Alliance had Princess Calia murdered by his Banshee lover. The abomination that now walks this land is NOT Princess Calia!"
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Last_Menethil

I give that the Alliance has fully claimed the Arathi Highlands, but Hillsbrad is hardly "contested" territory, the Alliance has a handful of paladins working on cleansing Southshore but thats about it, it's technically Alliance yes, but just about as useful as Lordaeron's capital city (ie not at all).

How is the Barrens contested? The Alliance has no presence in the Barrens except for Northwatch Hold, which they've had since vanilla? And if you mean that one, that means the Barrens has always been contested. (in a BfA Mission table Fort Triumph and Bael Modan get wrecked by the Horde iirc)

Stonetalon has always been neutral? Neither Alliance nor Horde was able to gain a decisive advantage after The Bomb was dropped on a neutral druid enclave.

We do not know the state of Ashenvale, so don't start and make things up. The Alliance won in Darkshore, not in Ashenvale.

Feralas is Alliance? Since when? The tauren and Stonemaul ogre do not have their village and fort there anymore? (literally ingame).

Desolace is basicly unknown too, at this point, yes the latest lore we had about it (from Chronicles) had Desolace as Horde territory because of their alliance with the Centaur clans, but still.

We know the Forsaken gained the Kingdom of Alterac (BfA mission table) and the night elves probably gained mount Hyjal (from the latest wow book), tho.

Opposite that, the Alliance gained Fenris and Shadowfang Keeps in Silverpine Forest, but the Horde still hold the High Command, the Rear Guard, the Sepulcher, all their outposts and villages and cities in their other territories (+Andorhal since Cata), the Forsaken only lost Lordaeron City and Brill.

So no, the Horde might've gained some lands in this war too (probably Alterac, MAYBE Ashenvale or parts off) at best and at worst the status quo has mostly returned.

The Arathi Highlands and possibly even Darkshore are still contested - the Battle of Stromgarde and Darkshore involved only western Stromgarde and northern Darkshore, the Horde might retain outposts in other parts.

Ashenvale and Feralas are both likely still contested - the night elves are too weak to expel the Horde militarily, having suffered even further massive casualties during the Fourth War, and are probably exhausted - and even if the Horde has withdrawn, they can still easily seize lands after waiting several years.

Stonetalon and Desolace - the night elves have likely withdrawn most of their bases, not sure how they would have fought the Fourth War with sufficient soldiers otherwise, especially as most of their efforts were focused in Darkshore, Ashenvale and outside of Kalimdor. So probably they are Horde-leaning territories, with the orcs and tauren in far better condition to deploy and maintain military forces throughout both regions from Mulgore and Durotar.

Mount Hyjal is probably tentatively neutral - but Alliance-leaning possibly, Malfurion is the Cenarion Circle leader (I'm not sure how most night elves and tauren regard each other at this point), but there are still tauren druids there, so it's not exclusively Alliance territory either.

[Velerios]

The Arathi Highlands and possibly even Darkshore are still contested - the Battle of Stromgarde and Darkshore involved only western Stromgarde and northern Darkshore, the Horde might retain outposts in other parts.

Wrong: Lorewise alliance won both Warfronts.

[Shadowtwili]

About Lordaeron, I am curious - does Exploring Azeroth mention Tirisfal Glades at all? Is it returned to the Forsaken control? There are some humans remaining there, with these propaganda pamphlets:

"Sadly, the Traitor King of the Alliance had Princess Calia murdered by his Banshee lover. The abomination that now walks this land is NOT Princess Calia!"
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Last_Menethil

Well, I assume Tirisfal Glades is still under Forsaken control because the Forsaken still maintain the Bulwark and the Forsaken High Command at the borders, Deathknell, Agamand Mills, Calston Estate and Cold Hearth Manor are also still under Forsaken control. The only unknown is the Scarlet's at the Monestary and Solliden Farmstead, in Legion the Monastery was wiped off all live, but then again, it was also such in Cataclysm.

The Arathi Highlands and possibly even Darkshore are still contested - the Battle of Stromgarde and Darkshore involved only western Stromgarde and northern Darkshore, the Horde might retain outposts in other parts.

No, they're not contested, they are clear Alliance victories, both stated by Blizzard (Word of God), and by either ingame (Victory in Darkshore quest with Tyrande) or the Shadow's Rising book (Danath Trollbane rules from Stromgarde, Horde refugees are fleeing the Arathi Highlands).

Ofcourse Blizzard will never remove Hammerfall or the Warfront aspects of either zones, so ingame the Horde will keep outposts and presence in both zones.

Ashenvale and Feralas are both likely still contested - the night elves are too weak to expel the Horde militarily, having suffered even further massive casualties during the Fourth War, and are probably exhausted - and even if the Horde has withdrawn, they can still easily seize lands after waiting several years.

Why would the Horde withdraw from Feralas anyway? The tauren have had a presence there since atleast vanilla, if not longer, same with the night elves. Both factions have only increased their presence too!

Stonetalon and Desolace - the night elves have likely withdrawn most of their bases, not sure how they would have fought the Fourth War with sufficient soldiers otherwise, especially as most of their efforts were focused in Darkshore, Ashenvale and outside of Kalimdor. So probably they are Horde-leaning territories, with the orcs and tauren in far better condition to deploy and maintain military forces throughout both regions from Mulgore and Durotar.

Ever since Krom'gar it has been a Horde-leaning zone, especially if you'd see the difference in size and power of Horde bases there compared to the Elven outposts. The only exception might be Stonetalon Peak, but we don't know its situation after its corruption and cleansing in Cataclysm.

Mount Hyjal is probably tentatively neutral - but Alliance-leaning possibly, Malfurion is the Cenarion Circle leader (I'm not sure how most night elves and tauren regard each other at this point), but there are still tauren druids there, so it's not exclusively Alliance territory either.

I'd say Hyjal is now a heavily Alliance-leaning (if not outright Alliance) territory. Sure there are neutral tauren druids there, but the entire Darnassian leadership and their Army of the Black Moon are situated on Mount Hyjal too.

[nysisyn]

No, they're not contested, they are clear Alliance victories, both stated by Blizzard (Word of God), and by either ingame (Victory in Darkshore quest with Tyrande) or the Shadow's Rising book (Danath Trollbane rules from Stromgarde, Horde refugees are fleeing the Arathi Highlands).

Ofcourse Blizzard will never remove Hammerfall or the Warfront aspects of either zones, so ingame the Horde will keep outposts and presence in both zones.

This is not entirely accurate.
Steve Danuser said Alliance won the warfront. But he or any other blizzard source never said the Alliance control the zone.

If you consider the Alliance version of both warfront behind canon :

- Hammerfall was not involved in the warfront and never take by the Alliance. In the canon versio after battle, the horde still has it and control a portion of the zone

- Same for Darkshore. While the Alliance get Lordanel back during the battle, in its canon aftermath the Horde still posses the Shatterspear vale and warcamp.
Of course it is likely the Shatterspear abandonned the warcamp and returned to their vale now.

So both are still constested. (Shared would probably be a better word, as both faction are now at peace)

Wrong: Lorewise alliance won both Warfronts.

Same. Winning a battle for a small part of a zone doesn't mean you control the zone.

the Shadow's Rising book (Danath Trollbane rules from Stromgarde, Horde refugees are fleeing the Arathi Highlands).

It doesn't necessarily mean Hammerfall has.. fall. Refugees are likely Forsaken.

[OwenBurton]

This is not entirely accurate.
Steve Danuser said Alliance won the warfront. But he or any other blizzard source never said the Alliance control the zone.

If you consider the Alliance version of both warfront behind canon :

- Hammerfall was not involved in the warfront and never take by the Alliance. In the canon versio after battle, the horde still has it and control a portion of the zone

- Same for Darkshore. While the Alliance get Lordanel back during the battle, in its canon aftermath the Horde still posses the Shatterspear vale and warcamp.
Of course it is likely the Shatterspear abandonned the warcamp and returned to their vale now.

So both are still constested. (Shared would probably be a better word, as both faction are now at peace)



Same. Winning a battle for a small part of a zone doesn't mean you control the zone.



It doesn't necessarily mean Hammerfall has.. fall. Refugees are likely Forsaken.

I think most of the zones are contested now; it would be nice for at least some of them to go to entirely a single faction - for convenience if nothing else.

I think there is one positive advantage of having Calia Menethil as part of the Horde - perhaps she was able to negotiate a somewhat favorable armistice for the Forsaken - Anduin probably thinks little of Lilian Voss, but Calia is his close friend - Jaina's close friend. Perhaps she was able to use her influence to persuade him to withdraw from Tirisfal Glades and possibly other places - and allow the Forsaken to slowly reclaim some of the region for themselves.

[Hellspawn]

F
And while Tyrande apparently survives the Night Warrior, we must remember she is still apparently defeated by Sylvanas later, and there is no guarantee of her permanent survival either.

There is no way Tyrande stays in Ardenweald, zero evidence. Tyrande even states that she needs to take care of her people, can't do that in Ardenweald.
We will resolve what happens with the spirits of the dead Night Elfs but then her ark in Ardenweald is likely done.

Also, Tyrande fights Sylvanas before Elune grants her control over the Night Warrior. We also don't know if Sylvanas beats Tyrande, if Sylvanas would be able to do that she could have claimed the Sigil herself instead of sneaking it out of the Hearth of the Forest. Instead, she and all the invaders are just gone after the cutscene and Tyrande struggles with the Night Warrior power from what we can see, not from some arrows Sylvanas shot at her or something like that.

Ashenvale and Feralas are both likely still contested

Ashenvale really should go back to the Night Elfs (they gave up their claim on Azshara for that in cata), but who knows

The Arathi Highlands and possibly even Darkshore

Arathi has been reclaimed by the humans, Darkshore aswell.

Stonetalon and Desolace

I doubt that, apart from Night Elfs, they also got numerous nature allies which for some reason were mostly absent in BfA...
(They actually got a stone giant in one of the incursions)
Also there are Draenei and since Cataclysm also the Gilneans who are active in Kalimdor.

Mind you they lost mainly civilians with Teldrassil not military personal.

[Grazrug]

From a certain perspective, the Horde might have arguably...not "won" the Fourth War, per se - but gained more positive benefits.
- The Warchief position is abolished, the Horde Council represents all its diverse races equally, binding them ever closer together, Thrall and his family have returned from exile as firm supporters of the Horde, Lilian Voss leads the Forsaken, Calia and Derek are Horde members, the unpopular Gallywix is removed, Ratchet is possibly allied formally with the Horde via Gazlowe.

- The Alliance has been weakened and fractured, and lacks a representative council, led only by a "High King" whose policies are probably controversial at best, even in Legion, there were indications most citizens far preferred Varian; the night elves refused to have any contact with Anduin afterwards, even Genn is upset at him. It is unlikely that all the other leaders are obsessed with him; even Aysa mentioned that Varian was a far more capable sparring partner.

And while Tyrande apparently survives the Night Warrior, we must remember she is still apparently defeated by Sylvanas later, and there is no guarantee of her permanent survival either. Perhaps she stays in Ardenweald forever or something at its end, to bring her people healing or something. Anduin has apparently become corrupted, and the interviews indicate that this will have a lasting impact upon his character development. And as for Turalyon..."the golden one claims an vacant throne, the crown of light will bring only darkness." So it's not necessarily that positive for his future either (possible Lightbound reference) - and his own loyalties might be divided if Calia (resurrected by a naaru) challenges him to fight for the people of Lordaeron, their people, over that of Stormwind.

In essence, the Horde is newly reunited, with a fresh new beginning, and changed for the better - and the Alliance is slowly divided, and changed for the worse.

About Lordaeron, I am curious - does Exploring Azeroth mention Tirisfal Glades at all? Is it returned to the Forsaken control? There are some humans remaining there, with these propaganda pamphlets:

"Sadly, the Traitor King of the Alliance had Princess Calia murdered by his Banshee lover. The abomination that now walks this land is NOT Princess Calia!"
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Last_Menethil



The Arathi Highlands and possibly even Darkshore are still contested - the Battle of Stromgarde and Darkshore involved only western Stromgarde and northern Darkshore, the Horde might retain outposts in other parts.

Ashenvale and Feralas are both likely still contested - the night elves are too weak to expel the Horde militarily, having suffered even further massive casualties during the Fourth War, and are probably exhausted - and even if the Horde has withdrawn, they can still easily seize lands after waiting several years.

Stonetalon and Desolace - the night elves have likely withdrawn most of their bases, not sure how they would have fought the Fourth War with sufficient soldiers otherwise, especially as most of their efforts were focused in Darkshore, Ashenvale and outside of Kalimdor. So probably they are Horde-leaning territories, with the orcs and tauren in far better condition to deploy and maintain military forces throughout both regions from Mulgore and Durotar.

Mount Hyjal is probably tentatively neutral - but Alliance-leaning possibly, Malfurion is the Cenarion Circle leader (I'm not sure how most night elves and tauren regard each other at this point), but there are still tauren druids there, so it's not exclusively Alliance territory either.

Horde lost everything. Stop sugar coating it. The sooner people realise this game is alliance biased. the sooner we can work towards dismantling that problem properly. Alliance players need to check their privilige.

[geco]

Horde lost everything. Stop sugar coating it. The sooner people realise this game is alliance biased. the sooner we can work towards dismantling that problem properly. Alliance players need to check their privilige.

The sooner people stop thinking about "Conflict of biased" as something of the solution, the sooner the problem can be solved.
The Horde lost everything. But the alliance won nothing. The alliance lost half of its things and concepts and had already started having much less than the Horde.

This is not that the history of the Horde is based on destroying the Alliance or that the history of the Alliance is based on destroying the Horde.
* When Sylvanas goes bad No Pj Ally wins anything.
* When Teldrazzil burned no Pj Horde gained anything. (Va Varock cried a bit but in truth that only ended up destroying the character more)

This is the developers writing about how the Horde and the Alliance destroy each other for nothing.

PS: And if I'm wrong, tell me a moment where one faction really gains something based on the other faction losing something. I'm talking about winning something that serves them. Don't conquer a forest that you don't really care about or have a twitter that you "won the war" when it never shows up in the Game.

PS2: And the very few moments that it seems that something was taken from one faction to give it to another.
They were usually from the Alliance for the Horde. But they were removed from the development side from the time issue.

[Feanoro]

Horde lost everything. Stop sugar coating it. The sooner people realise this game is alliance biased. the sooner we can work towards dismantling that problem properly. Alliance players need to check their privilige.

Yeah, so long as there's a single Alliance player left, your work isn't done! Embrace that hate!

[Arganis]

The “fourth war” was just MOP 2.0

Alliance and Horde rebels marching on the gates of Orgrimmar to depose another psychotic “Warchief” leaves little doubt as to who lost the war (again).