Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[rhorle]

Being the same level with worse gear is not an advantage over somebody else. It's a disadvantage.

You pretty much contradicted yourself. Being a lower level then a person that just bought a 50 is then a disadvantage. While the advantage that level brings is minor it is still an advantage. Buying power, or paying to win, doesn't matter the relevance of that advantage. Only that you can buy one. If we use the argument of relevance then buying full Mythic gear right now would not be pay to win. Because it is the end of the tier and that Mythic gear is going to have no relevance in a few weeks. Because the relevant item levels change.

[InflaterMouse]

It's really not and you can try and redefine what an advantage is all you want. You're still wrong every time. The gear you get from a boost is actually better than what an average player would get if they weren't heavy into raiding. So you are given decent gear that will help you clear content AND you are given four free 16 slot bags. Sure 16 slot bags are only like....maybe 20 gold a piece but that's 80 gold a boosted character didn't need to spend. So you're utterly wrong about it being a disadvantage.

You're 100% wrong on the gear, stop while you are a head. When I hit level 58 on my shaman I had properly itemized blues in almost every slot, no raids, no carries. The gear is absolutely trash. Its not an advantage.

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You pretty much contradicted yourself. Being a lower level then a person that just bought a 50 is then a disadvantage. While the advantage that level brings is minor it is still an advantage. Buying power, or paying to win, doesn't matter the relevance of that advantage. Only that you can buy one. If we use the argument of relevance then buying full Mythic gear right now would not be pay to win. Because it is the end of the tier and that Mythic gear is going to have no relevance in a few weeks. Because the relevant item levels change.

So by this argument, if when you boosted the character was naked it wouldn't be an advantage correct? This seems to be the only leg the "its p2w" crowd is standing on.

[Soon-TM]

Winning over who, exactly?

If you buy a boost, then someone else has already not only cleared the content, but mastered it to the extent to which it is so trivial to them they can literally carry other people. You are certainly not winning over these people.

Is it really winning if you're still behind everyone else who cared enough to try? Is it the shortcut you consider winning? They win because they spend less time playing the game?

No, you don't win anything. You lose because you spend money on things nobody cares about whether you have or not. The people who sell the boosts just wins twice.

Yeah, thanks for proving my point. So, if Blizzard started selling full mythic raids set in the store, you would have no issues with it, wouldn't you? After all, you aren't "winning" anything, you could have got those items through regular gameplay anyway, right?

[InflaterMouse]

Yeah, thanks for proving my point. So, if Blizzard started selling full mythic raids set in the store, you would have no issues with it, would you? After all, you aren't "winning" anything, you could have got those items through regular gameplay anyway, right?

I mean you could get really subjective but winning in wow tends to revolve around completing end game pve content, competitive PVP, maybe some pet battles or ah stuff and gearing your character. Not sure outside of being EXTREMELY subjective on the term winning, that one could view it that much different.

[rhorle]

But you aren't getting something a person leveling isn't.

So? Are you saying that buying a full set of Mythic raid gear is not pay to win because you aren't getting something a person gearing up through drops isn't? It doesn't matter if your shaman was light years ahead because your shaman was not everyone. It is still an advantage over someone. We have seen you define pay to win in two separate ways just in your response.

1) You have to get something someone else is not.
2)You have to get something that is light years ahead of a better player.

What is the point of having on term for something when you have a hundred different definitions? If we keep the definition simple then it comes about what is acceptable forms of pay to win rather then trying to feel better by saying X is not pay to win. Buying power (item, buffs, talents, advantages, etc) is paying to win. You are paying to gain an advantage over others.

Leveling is an advantage even if you consider it minor or a silly advantage to buy. If you can't see a level increase as power then why is a level 50 weaker then a level 60? Why can't a level 50 wear level 60 gear? Why don't they have the same talents through out all of the levels? Levels are a form of power even if you blind yourself to that.

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So by this argument, if when you boosted the character was naked it wouldn't be an advantage correct? This seems to be the only leg the "its p2w" crowd is standing on.

The advantage gained is from the levels gained and not the gear the boost provides. That is a weird thing to get confused about.

[Semihagez]

So people are arguing that wow is pay2win because it has tiers? And gear progression? Like the moron talking about a carrot on a stick?

I have bought gold in every expansion that has existed. So all of wow has been p2w or none of it i guess?

You are missing the point. Take Complexity's world first mythic CN for example. They cleared with an average ilvl of 220, literally 1 week after mythic raid got released.. How is it possible to get ilvl that high only 1 week after mythic raid is available? They spend millions and millions of gold to buy every single heroic/mythic BOE they can find to geared the entire group.. Last time I heard the number is fucking ridiculous like 300 million gold.. In another word, your guild have zero chance of getting the world first achievement no matter how skilled you are unless everyone is willing to buy shit tons of gold like Complexity did. And that is going to happen again when Sanctum of Domination is released.. In another word, you have to spend shit tons of money to even have a chance to earn that achievemennt.. How is that not P2W?

[InflaterMouse]

So? Are you saying that buying a full set of Mythic raid gear is not pay to win because you aren't getting something a person gearing up through drops isn't? It doesn't matter if your shaman was light years ahead because your shaman was not everyone. It is still an advantage over someone. We have seen you define pay to win in two separate ways just in your response.

1) You have to get something someone else is not.
2)You have to get something that is light years ahead of a better player.

What is the point of having on term for something when you have a hundred different definitions? If we keep the definition simple then it comes about what is acceptable forms of pay to win rather then trying to feel better by saying X is not pay to win. Buying power (item, buffs, talents, advantages, etc) is paying to win. You are paying to gain an advantage over others.

Leveling is an advantage even if you consider it minor or a silly advantage to buy. If you can't see a level increase as power then why is a level 50 weaker then a level 60? Why can't a level 50 wear level 60 gear? Why don't they have the same talents through out all of the levels? Levels are a form of power even if you blind yourself to that.

No, if you were able to log into wow, go to the blizzard store and buy mythic raid gear it would absolutely be pay to win. I say pay to win is exactly that, you pay to win. It isn't a grey term that covers every financial decision a company makes.

So what does boosting give a player at level 58 that a player that levels to 58 gets?

[rhorle]

In another word, you have to spend shit tons of money to even have a chance to earn that achievemennt.. How is that not P2W?

Because you are buying items from other players. It is the normal economy and systems of the game. If that is pay to win then so is buying a feast, flask, enchant, etc. Because all are a part of the normal trade of the game. Even if the token didn't exist those world first guilds would by from third party sellers (yes against the rules), take loans out, or any other way of convincing people to help them out.

At no point is pay to win referring to the ability to buy power through in-game methods. Gold, even if obtained from a token, is still an in-game method. That gold had to have been earned by another player in order for it to buy a token. Tokens don't create any gold they only transfer it.

[arkanon]

Yes. Yes, it is pay to win.

Even though it's not.

I think this summarizes this thread very nicely.

[rhorle]

No, if you were able to log into wow, go to the blizzard store and buy mythic raid gear it would absolutely be pay to win. I say pay to win is exactly that, you pay to win. It isn't a grey term that covers every financial decision a company makes. So what does boosting give a player at level 58 that a player that levels to 58 gets?

But you are not paying to win anything at this point in time. That mythic raid gear is currently akin to a level 50 boost prior to the launch of Shadowlands. If it isn't a grey term then you can't exclude buying levels. What does buying Mythic gear give a player that gets Mythic gear to drop instead? You keep saying leveling isn't paying to win because buying levels is the same as leveling to that boost amount. That is a dumb argument because buying gear is the same as farming for gear.

It doesn't exclude something from being pay to win.

[InflaterMouse]

But you are not paying to win anything at this point in time. That mythic raid gear is currently akin to a level 50 boost prior to the launch of Shadowlands. If it isn't a grey term then you can't exclude buying levels. What does buying Mythic gear give a player that gets Mythic gear to drop instead? You keep saying leveling isn't paying to win because buying levels is the same as leveling to that boost amount. That is a dumb argument because buying gear is the same as farming for gear.

It doesn't exclude something from being pay to win.

What does boosting a toon to level 58 get you over a player that levels a toon to level 58?

[Clozer]

No, if you were able to log into wow, go to the blizzard store and buy mythic raid gear it would absolutely be pay to win. I say pay to win is exactly that, you pay to win. It isn't a grey term that covers every financial decision a company makes.

So what does boosting give a player at level 58 that a player that levels to 58 gets?

If both players started playing the game at the same time. That boosted boy already cleared his first few raids before the other dude even managed to hit level 58. A massive advantage. Leveling is part of character progression. You being able to skip that part of the progression to start right at the endgame is massive.

The exact same thing with mythic gear. What advantage gets a player if he buys all mythic raid gear in the store compared to the player that already has full mythic raid gear? You see what I did there. Nonsense.

[huth]

It's really not and you can try and redefine what an advantage is all you want. You're still wrong every time. The gear you get from a boost is actually better than what an average player would get if they weren't heavy into raiding.

You haven't actually looked at the gear, have you? 8.3 world quest rewards are better. Never mind anything from instanced content. 16 slot bags are a bad joke, especially with how cheap bags are this time around.

It's also 80 gold a boosted char didn't earn that a leveled one would already have 10 times over. So it's still a disadvantage.

You pretty much contradicted yourself.

No, because most people are 50+ already. Your argument would only hold water if Blizz had deleted or reset all characters to level 1. As is, your comparison group is on average better equipped and at least the same level.

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If both players started playing the game at the same time. That boosted boy already cleared his first few raids before the other dude even managed to hit level 58. A massive advantage. Leveling is part of character progression. You being able to skip that part of the progression to start right at the endgame is massive.

The boosted guy cleared several raids in less than 2 days? I think you need a reality check. The boost also only gets you to 50. Endgame is 60.

[rhorle]

What does boosting a toon to level 58 get you over a player that levels a toon to level 58?

How is buying gear pay to win if it gets you nothing over a player that gets the same gear to drop? Repeating a faulty question that has already been addressed doesn't actually change anything.

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No, because most people are 50+ already. Your argument would only hold water if Blizz had deleted or reset all characters to level 1. As is, your comparison group is on average better equipped and at least the same level.

So if most people already have the gear sold it isn't paying to win. Gotcha. The level 50 boosts also existed prior to Shadowlands when everyone was level 50. So the level boost was pay to win but then no longer was pay to win by your own definitions.

[Clozer]

You haven't actually looked at the gear, have you? 8.3 world quest rewards are better. Never mind anything from instanced content. 16 slot bags are a bad joke, especially with how cheap bags are this time around.

It's also 80 gold a boosted char didn't earn that a leveled one would already have 10 times over. So it's still a disadvantage.



No, because most people are 50+ already. Your argument would only hold water if Blizz had deleted or reset all characters to level 1. As is, your comparison group is on average better equipped and at least the same level.

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The boosted guy cleared several raids in less than 2 days? I think you need a reality check. The boost also only gets you to 50. Endgame is 60.

In 2 days or even 24 hours I can clear mythic CN 10 times. What reality check do you need?

[Semihagez]

Because you are buying items from other players. It is the normal economy and systems of the game. If that is pay to win then so is buying a feast, flask, enchant, etc. Because all are a part of the normal trade of the game. Even if the token didn't exist those world first guilds would by from third party sellers (yes against the rules), take loans out, or any other way of convincing people to help them out.

At no point is pay to win referring to the ability to buy power through in-game methods. Gold, even if obtained from a token, is still an in-game method. That gold had to have been earned by another player in order for it to buy a token. Tokens don't create any gold they only transfer it.

Those items are priced at insanely high price in AH simply because gold buying exists! If you cannot buy gold using Wowtoken, I can bet you new mythic gear posted at the start of a raid tier wouild be a lot cheaper.. Also keep in mind Blizzard is making money when you buy wowtoken for gold. Because wowtoken cost 20 buck to buy but only gives you 15 bucks when you exchange it to blizzard balance. So it's not a perfect exchange at all.

Finally, Blizzard could have made World First a lot less relied on buying gold if they simply make all new trash drops BOP until world first achievement is earned by someone. But of course they are not going to do that.. simply because they make SHIT TONS of money when ppl buy Wowtoken for gold.

[InflaterMouse]

If both players started playing the game at the same time. That boosted boy already cleared his first few raids before the other dude even managed to hit level 58. A massive advantage. Leveling is part of character progression. You being able to skip that part of the progression to start right at the endgame is massive.

The exact same thing with mythic gear. What advantage gets a player if he buys all mythic raid gear in the store compared to the player that already has full mythic raid gear? You see what I did there. Nonsense.

Not what I asked, I asked what does a boosted character in this game get that a person who levels to 58 doesn't. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand thought processes. We can "what-if" what happens after they hit 60 to death.

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You haven't actually looked at the gear, have you? 8.3 world quest rewards are better. Never mind anything from instanced content. 16 slot bags are a bad joke, especially with how cheap bags are this time around.

It's also 80 gold a boosted char didn't earn that a leveled one would already have 10 times over. So it's still a disadvantage.



No, because most people are 50+ already. Your argument would only hold water if Blizz had deleted or reset all characters to level 1. As is, your comparison group is on average better equipped and at least the same level.

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The boosted guy cleared several raids in less than 2 days? I think you need a reality check. The boost also only gets you to 50. Endgame is 60.

A boost gets you to lvl 58. I cleared raids on my shaman I level from 1-60 during pre-patch.

[huth]

So if most people already have the gear sold it isn't paying to win. Gotcha. The level 50 boosts also existed prior to Shadowlands when everyone was level 50. So the level boost was pay to win but then no longer was pay to win by your own definitions.

No, it didn't exist prior to Shadowlands. It was part of 9.0.

In 2 days or even 24 hours I can clear mythic CN 10 times. What reality check do you need?

9 of which grant no loot. Big deal. You still have no advantage over the player that didn't pay.

[InflaterMouse]

How is buying gear pay to win if it gets you nothing over a player that gets the same gear to drop? Repeating a faulty question that has already been addressed doesn't actually change anything.

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So if most people already have the gear sold it isn't paying to win. Gotcha. The level 50 boosts also existed prior to Shadowlands when everyone was level 50. So the level boost was pay to win but then no longer was pay to win by your own definitions.

You actually typed out the answer to the question even though you don't want to read it. The answer is "it gets you nothing."

[rhorle]

Those items are priced at insanely high price in AH simply because gold buying exists!

No. They are priced insanely high prices because it is a brand new item in high demand. They sell for what people are willing to pay for them. It happens with everything and not just BoEs. Crafting mats rapidly drop in price after the launch of an expansion. The legendary items are less then 20k for a rank 4. That is a massive difference from the beginning of the expansion.

There are also massive amounts of gold out there from WoD and Legion. Even in Shadowlands you can make a decent amount of gold through close to passive means. My character is sitting at 500k and I usually gain little gold. Selling crystals, selling herbs (gained from Theotar soulbind), callings, mission table fish rewards (still high priced on my server).

Making trash drops BOP won't impact world first guilds that much. Because they will just have a raid for each alt. That then funnels gear to those alts of that armor type. Would it be a little slower? Sure. BoE and trash farming is a way for anyone to make a little gold at the start of an expansion and helps is something that more then just world first guilds buy. World first guilds make a ton of gold because they can sell their services later. Remember these are teams that have sponsors and other things that already set them a part from the rest of the people playing the game.