The problem with alliance bias.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, but Horde *NPCs* (The ones that count, players and their bluster on forums doesn't matter at all) *would* do that, while despite lots (Maybe even most) Alliance players saying "The Horde is our greatest threat, finish them off already", Alliance *NPCs* will always do the "Let's turn our backs again so they can backstab us again" thing.

Look at BFA, would Anduin say "Kill them all, we've been stabbed in the back too often already"? No, he wouldn't (Neither would Varian have), but would Sylvanas (And before her, Garrosh) leave an opportunity to destroy the Alliance once and for all? Be honest with your answer.

i have no idea what are you talking about, not it is the NPC who will trashtalk?

Varian literally start a war against the horde because he hated orcs, and while Garrosh was killed off he was being made a saint

Even neutral factions would be slaughtered sooner or later. Likely starting from Silver Hand and Argents and then going down to Cenarion Circle. Since in so far we have seen that ANYTHING that horde dosent directly control, entirely oppress or have under thumb considered an existential threat and causes horde sleepless nights which they resolve in mass slaughter out of misguided fear.

That is just a slippery slope fallacy

Your point of "horde see anything they don't control is a thread" is also extremely fallacious seeing you are using only 2 people construct that argument, Garrosh, while took the position in a time the alliance was, indeed, oppressing and threatening the horde, and Sylvanus who just had the devs and the Janitor to back her plot that would never happen if they stick with their own lore

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On one had, I understand why they did that (because the writers decided the franchise absolutely 100% is not allowed to ever evolve beyond the subtitle of their first game ever out of fucking nowhere one day and dictated that 'the core' of the franchise will always be orcs and humans).

there is no problem with the "core" being orcs and humans, because they create the factions and the game and conflicts all start with then.

But before they always had the decency to develop other races as well, now that is long gone, they are focusing on the "main" characters and not the races themselves

[mysticx]

i have no idea what are you talking about, not it is the NPC who will trashtalk?

Varian literally start a war against the horde because he hated orcs, and while Garrosh was killed off he was being made a saint

It's not about trash talk (Which is just that, trash, what some nerds are spouting on the internet is utterly irrelevant), it's about where the story goes, and that's all based on actions of NPCs, and on that subject i stand by my words, Horde leaders wouldn't hesitate to destroy the Alliance, while Alliance leaders will *always* give the Horde another chance, because... frankly i can't think of a purely lore-based reason anymore, but Alliance leaders will *never* go "Kill them all" on the Horde.

[Syegfryed]

By the time of Sylvanas' appointement it was already old news that she was a very nasty piece of work, and the fact that characters such as Eitrigg, Saurfang until his rebellion and Rexxar put even less resistance toward her and her actions than for Garrosh was frankly very baffling and badly written.
.

that was so infuriating and just show how the current devs are fucking clowns

Eitrigg was 100% against Garrosh actions to escalate the war and all the time was advising against attacking theramore, but with sylvanus he was 100% behind her to the point or going to the fight himself, lmao

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It's not about trash talk (Which is just that, trash, what some nerds are spouting on the internet is utterly irrelevant), it's about where the story goes, and that's all based on actions of NPCs, and on that subject i stand by my words, Horde leaders wouldn't hesitate to destroy the Alliance, while Alliance leaders will *always* give the Horde another chance, because... frankly i can't think of a purely lore-based reason anymore, but Alliance leaders will *never* go "Kill them all" on the Horde.

How can you say that "they wOnt HeSiTaTe To DesTrOy AlLiAnCe" when they literally, two times, chose to fight their own faction and not destroy the alliance?

If everyone stood by garrosh by example, they would have destroyed the alliance, and they choose not to.

The alliance will never go "kill them all" on the horde because that would go against the image of good two shoes faction with a moral highground that most players like

[VladlTutushkin]

i have no idea what are you talking about, not it is the NPC who will trashtalk?

Varian literally start a war against the horde because he hated orcs, and while Garrosh was killed off he was being made a saint



That is just a slippery slope fallacy

Your point of "horde see anything they don't control is a thread" is also extremely fallacious seeing you are using only 2 people construct that argument, Garrosh, while took the position in a time the alliance was, indeed, oppressing and threatening the horde, and Sylvanus who just had the devs and the Janitor to back her plot that would never happen if they stick with their own lore

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there is no problem with the "core" being orcs and humans, because they create the factions and the game and conflicts all start with then.

But before they always had the decency to develop other races as well, now that is long gone, they are focusing on the "main" characters and not the races themselves

The point is - even in Cata Alliance was not "oppressing" horde. It was at worst inconveniencing it. But all that aside.

Horde naturally seems to be extremely paranoid/assumptious when it comes to other races or organizations. Even Thrall, the most level headed of orcs was ABSOLUTELY SURE that draenei joining Alliance would end up in a global war of two factions with a goal of orc extermination since draenei would never forgive what horde did to them.

[Syegfryed]

The point is - even in Cata Alliance was not "oppressing" horde. It was at worst inconveniencing it. But all that aside.
Horde naturally seems to be extremely paranoid/assumptious when it comes to other races or organizations.

of course, you as an alliance would say that, but what we had was a horde dying by famine because the alliance was strengthening their grip and attacking then from all sides, from durotar and barrens to ashara

Yeah, if you are hit all the time, from all directions, which is the case of most horde races, being always in the line of extinction or enslavement you can understand why they would be paranoid if someone is showing blades at then

Even Thrall, the most level headed of orcs was ABSOLUTELY SURE that draenei joining Alliance would end up in a global war of two factions with a goal of orc extermination since draenei would never forgive what horde did to them.

And anyone with a halfbrain could think that is the truth, otherwise why would they search the cosmos for the orcs, if it was not for revenge? of course we know that is not the reason, but he never knew the draeneis, only heard stories, you can't blame him for thinking that

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The point is - even in Cata Alliance was not "oppressing" horde. It was at worst inconveniencing it. But all that aside.

Horde naturally seems to be extremely paranoid/assumptious when it comes to other races or organizations. Even Thrall, the most level headed of orcs was ABSOLUTELY SURE that draenei joining Alliance would end up in a global war of two factions with a goal of orc extermination since draenei would never forgive what horde did to them.

The cata alliance was trying to wipe out the orcs and any one who stood in the way of them doing so Varian said as much in his war declaration and then launched the first assaults of the war on orcish lands and even tries to capture thrall and kill any one in the way.

[Feanoro]

The point is - even in Cata Alliance was not "oppressing" horde. It was at worst inconveniencing it. But all that aside.

Horde naturally seems to be extremely paranoid/assumptious when it comes to other races or organizations. Even Thrall, the most level headed of orcs was ABSOLUTELY SURE that draenei joining Alliance would end up in a global war of two factions with a goal of orc extermination since draenei would never forgive what horde did to them.

Maybe if the Horde would stop racking up genocide charges, they wouldn't have to be paranoid about their victims wanting revenge. That of course would involve the "writers" having an iota of self awareness though.

[VladlTutushkin]

The cata alliance was trying to wipe out the orcs and any one who stood in the way of them doing so Varian said as much in his war declaration and then launched the first assaults of the war on orcish lands and even tries to capture thrall and kill any one in the way.

And yet only "crime" Alliance did was Taurajo. And even that is neither here nor there on a scale of "bad to messed up". While Horde actually wipes out civilians and never stops fighting until it gets less then beneficial for them.

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of course, you as an alliance would say that, but what we had was a horde dying by famine because the alliance was strengthening their grip and attacking then from all sides, from durotar and barrens to ashara

Yeah, if you are hit all the time, from all directions, which is the case of most horde races, being always in the line of extinction or enslavement you can understand why they would be paranoid if someone is showing blades at then



And anyone with a halfbrain could think that is the truth, otherwise why would they search the cosmos for the orcs, if it was not for revenge? of course we know that is not the reason, but he never knew the draeneis, only heard stories, you can't blame him for thinking that

And then we cant blame Varian for hating orcs, right? Because he only met ONE good orc who was a slave like him, while other orcs he met were salvers and brutish bloodthirsty monsters. He never met "good" orcs aside from one who was apparently an outcast.

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of course, you as an alliance would say that, but what we had was a horde dying by famine because the alliance was strengthening their grip and attacking then from all sides, from durotar and barrens to ashara

Yeah, if you are hit all the time, from all directions, which is the case of most horde races, being always in the line of extinction or enslavement you can understand why they would be paranoid if someone is showing blades at then



And anyone with a halfbrain could think that is the truth, otherwise why would they search the cosmos for the orcs, if it was not for revenge? of course we know that is not the reason, but he never knew the draeneis, only heard stories, you can't blame him for thinking that

Also nah, they just paranoid maniacs. No justification, no excuses, nothing. Alliance races are also constantly hit, ACTUALLY wiped out and battered by all kinds of forces, Horde being main amongst those and yet Alliance dosent suffer from endless paranoia.

Hell, only elf who still has a grudge against you (or maybe she already moved on) is Tyrande. Imagine that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And yet only "crime" Alliance did was Taurajo. And even that is neither here nor there on a scale of "bad to messed up". While Horde actually wipes out civilians and never stops fighting until it gets less then beneficial for them

starting a war for the sole reason of wiping out another race causing thousands if not tens of thousands of deaths on both side is likely a worse crime then winning said war.

Every thing that happens to the alliance in cata they call down on them selfs by starting the conflict and then being worse at it.

[VladlTutushkin]

starting a war for the sole reason of wiping out another race causing thousands if not tens of thousands of deaths on both side is likely a worse crime then winning said war.

Every thing that happens to the alliance in cata they call down on them selfs by starting the conflict and then being worse at it.

Nah, not really. The "warmonger" Varian went to Theramor for peace conference while "poor little" Garrosh was foaming at the mouth about "taking whole Kalimdor". Oh and they also attacked Gilneas which was not part of Alliance and gained an enemy which they later cast as "unreasonable" again.

Also "worse" at war? Killing civilians counts as being good at war now? Splendid. Perhapns next time Alliance "take the lesson to heart" and demonstrate you what a more civilized approach to extermination looks like.

You will walk to your own graves, orderly.

[Maxilian]

Well i think there is bias both ways, Blizzard feels the need to paint the Alliance as the good guys and the winners with less problems, making them normally the ones who wins (at least morally), but they also seem to find the Horde more interesting to write so they end up wanting to try a lot of new stuff with the Horde and never trying anything new with the Alliance.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Nah, not really. The "warmonger" Varian went to Theramor for peace conference while "poor little" Garrosh was foaming at the mouth about "taking whole Kalimdor".

the same peace conference is where varian was foaming at the mouth about how the orcs had evil in there blood and none could be trusted after said orcs saved his kid during the attack. They were both always warmongers with the different being that Garrosh wants supply’s for his people to not die and varian just wanted the orcs wiped out.

Oh and they also attacked Gilneas which was not part of Alliance and gained an enemy which they later cast as "unreasonable" again.

and the alliance attacks a goblin populous who weren’t part of the horde, both sides did the same thing just to different races.

Also "worse" at war? Killing civilians counts as being good at war now? Splendid. Perhapns next time Alliance "take the lesson to heart" and demonstrate you what a more civilized approach to extermination looks like.

You will walk to your own graves, orderly.

no losing on every front after you had the opening assaults makes you worse at war.

As far as cata and killing Civs go though the horde isn’t even really out pacing the alliance. The horde wipes out south shore and attacks Gilneus and the alliance wipes out camp
What’s its name and attacks the goblins.

[VladlTutushkin]

the same peace conference is where varian was foaming at the mouth about how the orcs had evil in there blood and none could be trusted after said orcs saved his kid during the attack. They were both always warmongers with the different being that Garrosh wants supply’s for his people to not die and varian just wanted the orcs wiped out.

and the alliance attacks a goblin populous who weren’t part of the horde, both sides did the same thing just to different races.

no losing on every front after you had the opening assaults makes you worse at war.

As far as cata and killing Civs go though the horde isn’t even really out pacing the alliance. The horde wipes out south shore and attacks Gilneus and the alliance wipes out camp
What’s its name and attacks the goblins.

Attack on goblins verges on the retcon’s edge all the time.

And horde wiped out Soutshore, attacked Gilneas (killing and enslaving indiscriminately), wiped out Silverwind Refuge and even left the corpses to rot where they lied as a “warning”, rolled over entire Ashenvale killing and burning everything they could get their hands on. Also forsaken wiped out remaining Hillsbrad humans in the meanwhile in actual death camps. Thats fucken twisted.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Attack on goblins verges on the retcon’s edge all the time.

where has it ever been even slightly implied that the goblins weren’t attacked?

And horde wiped out Soutshore, attacked Gilneas (killing and enslaving indiscriminately), wiped out Silverwind Refuge and even left the corpses to rot where they lied as a “warning”, rolled over entire Ashenvale killing and burning everything they could get their hands on. Also forsaken wiped out remaining Hillsbrad humans in the meanwhile in actual death camps. Thats fucken twisted.

Silver wind was a military outpost not a civilian hub if you don’t want your military outpost to be attacked you shouldn’t go around starting wars.

I’d also say any remaining humans in hillsbrad were from south shore as there weren’t any other real civ hubs so that would still just be the equivalent of camp what’s it name if a bit worse optically in how they were killed.

[Jackstraw]

Any questionable act done by the Alliance verges on the retcon’s edge all the time.

Fixed it for you, no need to thank me.

Infracted.

Wow, really? The maturity of this whole conversation is leaving me perplexed.

[Calfredd]

Auclad showing his alliance bias once more. Your petty bans won't stop me Alliance puppet.

You'll probably find this useful.

[VladlTutushkin]

where has it ever been even slightly implied that the goblins weren’t attacked?



Silver wind was a military outpost not a civilian hub if you don’t want your military outpost to be attacked you shouldn’t go around starting wars.

I’d also say any remaining humans in hillsbrad were from south shore as there weren’t any other real civ hubs so that would still just be the equivalent of camp what’s it name if a bit worse optically in how they were killed.

Most civilians in Taurajo were killed either by quillboars or by carnivorous plants in Overgrowth. Hawthorne specifically allowed them to escape , which was later questioned by his aide who thought that it severely compromised the attack and it could have failed because of his decision to allow civilians to flee by leaving gaps in Alliance formation.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Most civilians in Taurajo were killed either by quillboars or by carnivorous plants in Overgrowth. Hawthorne specifically allowed them to escape , which was later questioned by his aide who thought that it severely compromised the attack and it could have failed because of his decision to allow civilians to flee by leaving gaps in Alliance formation.

And most Civilians of south shore were killed by gravity bring down the plague barrels. When you set up a Situation where the only outcome is death your at fault even if you didn't mean for it.

[TheRevenantHero]

Most civilians in Taurajo were killed either by quillboars or by carnivorous plants in Overgrowth. Hawthorne specifically allowed them to escape , which was later questioned by his aide who thought that it severely compromised the attack and it could have failed because of his decision to allow civilians to flee by leaving gaps in Alliance formation.

Dude, you can literally go to Taurajo in game right now and there are tauren corpses amidst the flames.

[GreenJesus]

Counter there is horde bias. lets go point by point.

better cities:
you still have: silvermoon, lorderaon is blight but undead can live there after its cleaned, ogrimmar, thunder bluff, dezalor, suramar, high mountain, goblin city.
Alliance has: exodar, iron forge, stormwind, boralus and mechagon.

So number wise you win. But lets look at the qaulity. I think you mean looks, functionality etc. Both exodar and silvermoon cross eachother out in both regards. Would give silvermoon being more pretty award. But i not.

So that leaves ironforge, stormwind and boralus and mechagon. The last one is still not really there yet after its civil war. Boralus and dezalor also cross each other out.

So that leaves ironforge and stormwind vs lorderaon, ogrimmar, thunder bluff, suramar , high mountain and goblin city. Yeah even if half the horde ones suck. if the rest is still on par with the alliance . the horde wins this one easy.

1 point for the horde


better characters: Depens on what you call better. Yes we have more alive ones. But the amount of story/use of them is way less then the horde. In the last few expansions i have spent more time with thrall, saurfang, sylvannas then i have with any alliance leader. But ours are still alive.
I would call this one a draw.


more development:
what does this even mean? allied races you get all new druids forms that where really new and not just reskins. Story wise you are also infront on many aspects. So be more clear...what do you mean with that? Last few expansions its been about horde cities getting raided, horde attacking , horde heroes and horde villians?


more zones: euuhhh what? you have the whole of kalimidor after the burning of teldrassil and destroying ashenvale/darkshore. And you have the top part of EK 2. So you have 1 continent + some zones on the other ones. So you win that with ease.

1 point for the horde


better immersion: Again a very what does this even mean story. I guess you mean, the story draws you in more. Has more to do with you as a faction. Yeah there i think it is a bit better for the alliance.

1 point for the alliance


better world building: again, huh? your kidding right? We are mostly just there to push the horde story forward. Anduin was just there to open the gate for saurfang. It was saurfangs quests. In most big lore things the alliance can be replaced by a random faction in the last few expansion. The horde can not.

other point for the horde


and is generally hailed as the cradle of civilisation on Azeroth: both lore and non lore wise that would be the trolls.

1 point for the horde


so 4 vs 1. horde wins. hell better racials ( even blizzard said at last blizzcon there is something off there :S).



your wish list:

a huge boost in their leader cast. I agree, but the alliance needs more stories around there hero's. This expansion is the first 1 in a while where both factions are dealing with a alliance hero. And hell he is being mind controlled by the bad guy and has only shown up in some cutscenes. While the horde boss is a full on raid boss using the alliance hero as a Add :S:S

a new style of architecture for the race who used to be savages. wait what? If you do not like the look, do not join the horde. the horde is about that look. And btw silvermoon?

the remaining parts of the core races to join the playable Horde. In this case the Gurubashi tribe, the Amani tribe, the Grimtotem tribe and the remains of the dark and fel Horde. i agree. But the same could be said for allliance. Wilde hammer dwarfs, high elves. And dude..you guys atleast got your trolls and upright orcs etc. We got zealot space goats and emo discarded blood elves ( oohh and fat humans).

being allowed to kill some Alliance heroes so that the blue team suffers real defeats. Varian, and just got teldrassil burned to a crisp. Several of our well know alliance members where killed in darkshore. Suffer real defeats. Have you even played BFA? we pretty much lost most of the time there.


do these Blizzard and the game counts as being fixed. nope even more bias for the horde then. I think you should really play a alliance hero from 0 to 60 and do all the lore stuff. believe me i have done it for both sides. and some of your list is just really BS.

Lol you include undercity but not teldrassil for night elves. Night elves can just plant another tree. It only took 20 years for teldrassil to grow into that giant tree. And i call bullshit on not interacting with alliance characters as much as horde characters. Argus? Hello? Literally 0 horde characters were present on Argus. Bfa and shadowlands Anduin and Jaina are literally thrown in our faces everywhere.