Tyrande and Sylvanas and why i hate how they are portrayed.

[VladlTutushkin]

I honestly didn't like when Jaina went on a murder spree in Dalaran on the Blood Elves. (Sunreavers) She was a loose cannon. "Controlled by emotions" Killing people that were not responsible for the order Garrosh made. Innocent bystanders. She also imprisoned people. Almost killing Thrall at one point too.


I just gave you a source where this has happened with a female character in this franchise. The whole reason she was unstable in my mind is innocent bystanders were involved. Including almost killing one of her closest allies. She did go to war tho. Women are able to go to war and not deemed as hysterical. I am not sure where you are getting this notion from. It has been done several times in the past. Tyrande was probably deemed "hysterical" because she wasn't listening to her allies. No matter how much they plead with her. Including her "daughter." This term can be used for males too and it is called going rogue. Which makes them a liability ultimately.


I already stated once before if they want to progress this story. I feel it is better for her to be in a better state of mind. Not everyone will feel this way. It very well could be done.



I feel like this is a presumptuous statement. She took a hit, do we really know if she is rendered completely powerless? She might not have the powers from the Jailer. Doesn't mean she doesn't have some strength within herself.


Not all female characters in the franchise have been portrayed this way. It seems like when they are a central focus, it might happen to make things more "interesting". Which can be a bit exhausting, it has happened to many characters in this franchise despite gender.... I really enjoyed the whole Velen vs Kil' Jaeden story. (I understand other people might not feel the same way..)

Your closing statement was about feeling angered. I would look on the positive. Sylvanas lost her crutch. Which seemed to be something that bothered you. If Night Elves really wanted revenge including Tyrande, she would have a more tactical mind to do so now. So to me it seems like they addressed all the issues that you are not very happy about.

But thats the problem - she chose to “forgive” essentially.

So she will not seek vengeance, seek reparations or seek justice. She will just default to status quo and best we will get is a line or two about how naughty Sylvanas was.

Not to mention that nothing will change about night elves and they will not do anything to either hit the Horde back or lay a trap for them if they attack again.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, sometimes it’s like that even in real life when people hurt you and then you react badly and yet it’s you who has to apologise for your reaction. Then mostly you are considered weak for choosing to apologise. When you however chose revenge because you can’t stand the pain they caused you are considered crazy and psychotic. It’s so confusing you know. See, Uther for example blaming himself for throwing Arthas into the Maw, but Arthas killed so many people that this is unbelievable. It’s all that he deserved. People may defend him for not being in control or making bad choices but there were many innocents that ended up in the Maw and I think this isn’t fair. Still, maybe if Jaina continued her crusade against the Horde it would lead her to certain death, instead she choose to save Azeroth with Thrall and others, seeing that not every Horde is evil. Sometimes when you chose to renewal instead of revenge this can bring remarkable results as nothing is better than your enemies seeing you thrive. Revenge makes you feel better for the short period of time then you have to take steps into recovery. It speeds up the whole process but you still waste time for revenge. I don’t really know which is better. I tried both in life but gained similar results.

In case of night elves and horde revenge, or rather justice is necessary.

Because either Horde “gives” and starts making amends for, you know, more then a decade of attempting a conquest of their land and then committing a genocide.

Or night elves have to continue fighting until they got enough payback on their own.

Because right now they dont even have a “window of opportunity” to potentially thrive. They lost everything. They have nothing to lose and all to gain from revenge.

- - - Updated - - -

Per Calia while she was trying to rope Elsie into defecting, everyone was defecting save Elsie herself and those that were already with Sylvanas from Day 1. Some of them just happened to start drifting back once the dark rangers took position, ergo, they were in the process of defecting but gave up on it once it became clear they might fail. Defecting to someone screeching about being your rightful monarch in an ostensible peace summit with a power you're at war with, as the Horde and Alliance only had an armistice at the time and were still at war, constitutes high treason. If you happen to be a high official, say the administrator of the capital city, that's even more iffy. In my country, that gets you life imprisonment, but we tend to be pussies about this sort of thing. Most everywhere else that either gets you the chair or you later end up killing yourself with two shots to the back of the head.



The worst thing the Horde did to Jaina prior to BFA was nuke a mostly evacuated city that was involved in a war against them. Boo-hoo. I don't count them killing her dad because she was very happy to let that happen or their actions in the Second War because if she cared one iota about dragons cooking her brother she wouldn't immediately be joining up with them in WC3 and mention him zero (0) times until he turned from a pile of ash to a corpse for the purposes of pathos.

Even the later retcon of Garrosh feeding Theramore survivors for a full year to use them for target practice elevates him to having behaviour identical to Kul Tiras itself. Her forgiving the Horde is still asinine because it doesn't follow at all from what she's witness to and from her own perspective Theramore would be very traumatic as would losing her home to people who she gave everything to for no justifiable reason, but let's not kid ourselves on how much she's actually suffered on any kind of objective scale.

You might be surprised by amount of Russian ex-mayors, governors, generals, colonels, state-linked bankers and oil magnates who now live in immigration or have like 3 different passports and 5 different allegiance.

[Super Dickmann]

You might be surprised by amount of Russian ex-mayors, governors, generals, colonels, state-linked bankers and oil magnates who now live in immigration or have like 3 different passports and 5 different allegiance.

Not that surprised really. Any time I hear someone in this forum going on about how evil shooting the Desolate Council was I'm reminded of the wealth of people who want people like Snowden or Assange offed or the treason laws of literally any functional state. And they weren't even joining someone who's whole gist is that they mean to topple the current country and replace it and also weren't at war with that state at the time. Also unlike the fictional Desolate Council, they're not from a country run by an autocratic zombie. Just a geriatric one. Or Australia, but what can you do.

[Raisei]

So, Sylvanas is in our clutches. Once we get the information extracted from her that we need to stop Zovaal, what do we do with her?

1) Despite it justifiably sickening everyone in every faction, if Sylvanas, now merged in soul and seemingly capable of understanding the wrong in her actions, tried to fix them? And I'm not talking some last minute selfish sacrifice like she tried to do (and hilariously failed) by flipping off Zovaal, but actual, rough, long-term fixing. Would Tyrande let that happen?

2) If Thrall took it upon himself to honor their last bargain, the proof that "the Horde has changed", what would Tyrande's reaction be? I just picture him throwing a bag with Sylvanas's head in it on her lap and her barely reacting, just handwaving and saying "burn it."

Of those theoreticals I'd pick #2 myself.

Danuser will never allow Sylvanas to be punished. He is already actively rewriting all the monstrous things she did in BFA so they can be forgiven and will be forgiven even by Tyrande. He effectively changed her character 180 degrees from BFA because he couldn't accept that she is a stone-cold villain.

Sylvanas literally turned from a maniac that gave the order to murder thousands of civilians for no reason without so much a twitch of guilt to someone that feels bad about mind-controlling a single human boy. She is a friggin Banshee, mind-controlling people is in her job discription! But nooo, she needs to show contrition now, how else will we redeem her?

There is just no way that all of this foreplay with Tyrande choosing "renewl" and Sylvanas suddenly developing a concience will not result in her being fully redeemed at the end of the story. Danuser has shown that nothing will stop him from this and he will assassinate any character he has to. Anduin will likely sacrifice himself so that the Banshee can be saved or something as ridiculous as that.

[Super Dickmann]

Anduin will likely sacrifice himself so that the Banshee can be saved or something as ridiculous as that.

Don't tease me like that.

That said I find Anduin a lot more tolerable in this expansion compared to anyone else in the Unifaction cast involved in Shadowlands and even Sylvanas herself, so i'd honestly prefer if all of them got thrown under the bus and he can stick around with the caveat of the narrative remembering his trauma from being mindcontrolled.

[loras]

Before i begin, small exposition to put things in perspective. I am a dude from Russia, land where women still considered rebellious kitchen gadgets. So when i thought “oh, thats kinda sexist” about WoW lore i double checked myself before deciding to write it down.


So, Tyrande and Sylvanas - two characters that played a considerable role in BfA and Shadowlands and which both make me suddenly think that such portrayal of women is just not right.


They both are used to show the weird and ugly idea that women choosing violence or force to achieve their goals are “wrong” or doing this in bad faith and because of “being controlled by emotions” instead of common sense or justice and good of their people.



Tyrande is forced to choose “renewal” which rings back to “women should not go to war” idea that really should not be prevalent in fantasy, god knows we have it all over Military irl (in Russia at least). That females are too “emotional and unstable” and driven by sudden petty angers and hysterics instead of cold and calculating intellect or brave and patriotic heart. And it is layered THICK with “her anger” this and “her rage” that. Tyrande presented as a woman in hysteria, instead of an avenger and heroine of her people! Her own daughter disapproves of her actions and wants her to “calm down”.


And so in the end Tyrande chooses to come back to Shandris and “let go of anger”, essentially laying down her arms and returning to “hearth and home”. “Girl done playing soldier” as is! Quite disgusting tbh. It surprisingly angered me, even though before i often laughed at feminists on the net and posted “go back making sandwiches” type memes.


Then Sylvanas… while i hate her guts and consider her a cancerous character that ruins the franchise i now feel almost double bad for her. So her decisions were not made by her sinister, cruel mind but were a result of psychosis! Of her being “not herself” because of Jailer. All her agency is gone now! She is shown as gullible, foolish thing who made all the wrong choices but ALSO made them because of a Big Man behind her who put her in power. Who gave her control over others. Who gave her strength and ability to fight. Take away that man and she is NOTHING.


Also her mind was “unstable”, a common theme of derogatory description of women, that their mental health is fragile and they are prone to insanity more then men. Idk how it really is but i dont think its true…


And now i am done writing, sorry for my tangent. I just felt strangle conflicted, as if i shouldnt write it down like that and make myself sound “unmanly” but i am moved to do so anyway because of how weird and fucked up those two characters were portrayed!


Thread warning:

Keep things specific to wow lore. We can discuss the writing of female characters, but not if it turns into winge about irl agendas.

First off: Good on you for being aware of the way your society might warp your views, i myself am of the Netherlands and as such am sometimes exposed to "tolerance" taken to the caricatural (and counterproductive) absurd, it's not easy remaining level headed amongst the hysterics of society (and that hysteria is certainly not only fuelled by women).

I strongly agree on your judgement of Sylvanas, i'd argue the addition of the Jailer has ruined her entire character precisely for that reason. There were many roads to take with that character, but few are so wrong as this one.

However when it comes to Tyrande it is worthwhile to mention that real women in power are rarely like Tyrande, and are often much more vengeful and warmongering than common memes might hint at. Throughout European history the women of house Habsburg have carefully managed the political and diplomatic marriages which have shaped and continue to shape most European histories for example. If one says cold and calculated in combination with politics and family one ought to think of a woman immediately.

As such Tyrande's choice might be less absurd than you might think, as contrary to most of those real women in power she is given a choice no real woman in power has gotten: True restoration and resolution of conflicts at the hands of a goddess she now knows to be real.
She does not need vengeance if she can undo the wrongs imposed on her, and with Elune she likely can.

It is a better victory than vengeance could ever deliver, yet one feeling so strange to us as our reality simply does not allow for such magical solutions.

And in the process of renewal she achieves something else too: She illustrates to Sylvanas AND death that their ploys insofar as she was involved were truly for naught. She teaches death powerlesness and despair, and that is quite something.

[Powerogue]

If you think Sylvanas will face any consequences aside from MAYBE a stern talking or two you are kidding yourself, your ancestors and your gods. (last part was for flavor's sake)

Having played through the Uther chapter now (I'm a bit behind) this is what I'm thinking on. They emphasized that ultimately in the Uther cutscene, Uther was pursuing vengeance, despite what he told himself, and that he was ultimately wrong to face Arthas as a bitter enemy, insulting him and damning him (verbally and eventually literally) to hell on his deathbed.

And...I don't agree.

It's a good sentiment to want to reason with evil, and turn them towards the path of good. To understand what made them that way and convince them to turn from it.

It's a good sentiment, that we tried with Sylvanas.



"Make your choice, Sylvanas Windrunner."



She made her choices as much as Arthas did when he took up Frostmourne, and when Arthas was welcomed home in open arms and friendship, he stabbed his own father through the heart.



If they truly intend to parallel Arthas and Sylvanas like this, there's only one way this can end in justice.

[VladlTutushkin]

First off: Good on you for being aware of the way your society might warp your views, i myself am of the Netherlands and as such am sometimes exposed to "tolerance" taken to the caricatural (and counterproductive) absurd, it's not easy remaining level headed amongst the hysterics of society (and that hysteria is certainly not only fuelled by women).

I strongly agree on your judgement of Sylvanas, i'd argue the addition of the Jailer has ruined her entire character precisely for that reason. There were many roads to take with that character, but few are so wrong as this one.

However when it comes to Tyrande it is worthwhile to mention that real women in power are rarely like Tyrande, and are often much more vengeful and warmongering than common memes might hint at. Throughout European history the women of house Habsburg have carefully managed the political and diplomatic marriages which have shaped and continue to shape most European histories for example. If one says cold and calculated in combination with politics and family one ought to think of a woman immediately.

As such Tyrande's choice might be less absurd than you might think, as contrary to most of those real women in power she is given a choice no real woman in power has gotten: True restoration and resolution of conflicts at the hands of a goddess she now knows to be real.
She does not need vengeance if she can undo the wrongs imposed on her, and with Elune she likely can.

It is a better victory than vengeance could ever deliver, yet one feeling so strange to us as our reality simply does not allow for such magical solutions.

And in the process of renewal she achieves something else too: She illustrates to Sylvanas AND death that their ploys insofar as she was involved were truly for naught. She teaches death powerlesness and despair, and that is quite something.

But there was no resolution. Thats what i cant agree with. She was not given a "resolution" be that some sort of revenge on Sylvanas or victory against the Horde. Yes SOME (emphasis on some) souls were saved from the Maw, but that is nothing for the living. Living night elves still suffer, still homeless (or living as guests at Hyjal where Cenarion Circle rules) and generally feel like beaten dogs chased out of their homes.

There was no blessing of Elune that would have, for example, caused Horde to be overcome with sudden fear and run away from Ashenvale. Or some magical barrier to guard night elven lands. Or even some sort of grand resurrection to return those souls back to life.

So "best" she got, if anything, was a pat on the head to HER personally and some "whoops, my bad" shrug off from Elune before she was denied her vengeance and sent back home like a good girls she is. There was no magic, nothing magical happened at all. Not to her, not to night elves... well, perhaps some souls are safe now but thats it. Some dead people feel marginally better. That is, if Shadowlands even survive as they are now after Jailer's rampage.

I would love her go full Olga on the Horde, aka Step 1) Convert to another religion after you see yours as a failure. 2) Vengeance until you destroyed an enemy to the point where they exist only as a part of story about you. Step 3) Being praised by the religion you converted to and locally canonized as a saint.

[Amariw]

I generally agree. Both chars were robbed of agency in a very unsatisfying way.

Tyrande may have realized Elune's actions now, but why does it make her calm about Sylvanad and the Jailer? It seems unlikely, and demeaning of the anger you'd expect her to feel.

[loras]

But there was no resolution. Thats what i cant agree with. She was not given a "resolution" be that some sort of revenge on Sylvanas or victory against the Horde. Yes SOME (emphasis on some) souls were saved from the Maw, but that is nothing for the living. Living night elves still suffer, still homeless (or living as guests at Hyjal where Cenarion Circle rules) and generally feel like beaten dogs chased out of their homes.

There was no blessing of Elune that would have, for example, caused Horde to be overcome with sudden fear and run away from Ashenvale. Or some magical barrier to guard night elven lands. Or even some sort of grand resurrection to return those souls back to life.

So "best" she got, if anything, was a pat on the head to HER personally and some "whoops, my bad" shrug off from Elune before she was denied her vengeance and sent back home like a good girls she is. There was no magic, nothing magical happened at all. Not to her, not to night elves... well, perhaps some souls are safe now but thats it. Some dead people feel marginally better. That is, if Shadowlands even survive as they are now after Jailer's rampage.

I would love her go full Olga on the Horde, aka Step 1) Convert to another religion after you see yours as a failure. 2) Vengeance until you destroyed an enemy to the point where they exist only as a part of story about you. Step 3) Being praised by the religion you converted to and locally canonized as a saint.

Perhaps i misinterpreted the lore, but i had a feeling that the payoff is still forthcoming, that all we have seen so far was Elune admitting her mistake, but that she will still have to make good on her failure to the night elves and will likely work with the night queen to give them something more tangible in the material realm.

If this is all that's going to be done with it then i definitely agree, but i had the idea that this was just the start of Elune's reparation.

Consequentially if Tyrande has not lost faith in Elune she can borrow her calm from the fact that het goddess has admitted to her faults and pledged to make up for it.

[TheVaryag]

Before i begin, small exposition to put things in perspective. I am a dude from Russia, land where women still considered rebellious kitchen gadgets. So when i thought “oh, thats kinda sexist” about WoW lore i double checked myself before deciding to write it down.


So, Tyrande and Sylvanas - two characters that played a considerable role in BfA and Shadowlands and which both make me suddenly think that such portrayal of women is just not right.


They both are used to show the weird and ugly idea that women choosing violence or force to achieve their goals are “wrong” or doing this in bad faith and because of “being controlled by emotions” instead of common sense or justice and good of their people.



Tyrande is forced to choose “renewal” which rings back to “women should not go to war” idea that really should not be prevalent in fantasy, god knows we have it all over Military irl (in Russia at least). That females are too “emotional and unstable” and driven by sudden petty angers and hysterics instead of cold and calculating intellect or brave and patriotic heart. And it is layered THICK with “her anger” this and “her rage” that. Tyrande presented as a woman in hysteria, instead of an avenger and heroine of her people! Her own daughter disapproves of her actions and wants her to “calm down”.


And so in the end Tyrande chooses to come back to Shandris and “let go of anger”, essentially laying down her arms and returning to “hearth and home”. “Girl done playing soldier” as is! Quite disgusting tbh. It surprisingly angered me, even though before i often laughed at feminists on the net and posted “go back making sandwiches” type memes.


Then Sylvanas… while i hate her guts and consider her a cancerous character that ruins the franchise i now feel almost double bad for her. So her decisions were not made by her sinister, cruel mind but were a result of psychosis! Of her being “not herself” because of Jailer. All her agency is gone now! She is shown as gullible, foolish thing who made all the wrong choices but ALSO made them because of a Big Man behind her who put her in power. Who gave her control over others. Who gave her strength and ability to fight. Take away that man and she is NOTHING.


Also her mind was “unstable”, a common theme of derogatory description of women, that their mental health is fragile and they are prone to insanity more then men. Idk how it really is but i dont think its true…


And now i am done writing, sorry for my tangent. I just felt strangle conflicted, as if i shouldnt write it down like that and make myself sound “unmanly” but i am moved to do so anyway because of how weird and fucked up those two characters were portrayed!


Thread warning:

Keep things specific to wow lore. We can discuss the writing of female characters, but not if it turns into winge about irl agendas.

I raise my hand to name myself russian too so I get where you're coming from, thankfully young russian gals i know are growing away from that old mindset too! But anyway..

I totally agree, this is something that should really be put in a spotlight and shown to WoW "Influencers" and made to discuss It atleast, cause to me It shows the true influence for the characters and thats the men of Blizzard who (considering the recent Lawsuit) can't think straight and have a very old mind set to say the least.

Also can I just ask whichever of the mods put that Thread Warning...what kinda irl agenda are you seeing here? A second mod should have a look at that "warning", what he said is completely relevant to the topic at hand and shows no agenda so far, I understand the warning but still, I'm more worried about the Forum Moderator's agendas over the past few years rather than the posters. But then that doesn't matter, because just like Blizzard criticism is unwanted here

The way the characters act makes no sense, and people should really notice how It makes even us russian men disgusted that we see this in a billion dollar product shown to millions of people, coming from a land where the old school mentality of men x woman is still present in many places and human rights are way behind the rest of the developed world, but I digress...

It is weird how Sylvanas just really gets control, power and is enabled by the Jailer and from the beginning we were told she's his "Equal" his "Partner" but in reality, we see what they menth for her to be, a pawn, a puppet. Either the devs really have no idea where their story will go within the next year ahead of time, or they're writing this shite on purpose.

Tyranda on the other hand, should be fecking furious considering the fact she learnt Elune let the people of Teldrassil burn to be fertilizer for her sister, The Winter Queen. Mortal loves, valuable lives reduced to being fertilizer in the grand scheme of the universe. That's the problem with Blizzard's "Zooming out" idea right now, you zoom out so much, mortal lives seem like ants to the greater forces they're trying to portrait and show off here.

We shouldn't be zooming out, but zooming IN. We should be dealing with local domestic problems, how about all the homeless people westfall and the Stormwind Kingdom has had ever since Cataclysm 10 years ago? Some of which joined the Defias Brotherhood, then it got canned cause Vanessa died, but oops she's not dead in Legion no more and the Brotherhood has SOMEHOW been active since that time and Vanessa survived, even though we still dont know what the feck she or the brotherhood are doing if they're not in the Deadmines, where are they? What do they plan? Aren't the people following Vanessa still wanting to burn down Stormwind cause Varian raised the taxes during the 4th War (The actual one, not the BFA one. Meaning the one started since the Wrathgate and ending with Garrosh's Fall) and people went homeless?

It makes no sense when you zoom IN, so they should focus on that first.

[VladlTutushkin]

Perhaps i misinterpreted the lore, but i had a feeling that the payoff is still forthcoming, that all we have seen so far was Elune admitting her mistake, but that she will still have to make good on her failure to the night elves and will likely work with the night queen to give them something more tangible in the material realm.

If this is all that's going to be done with it then i definitely agree, but i had the idea that this was just the start of Elune's reparation.

Consequentially if Tyrande has not lost faith in Elune she can borrow her calm from the fact that het goddess has admitted to her faults and pledged to make up for it.

The absolutely best, like, miraculously best scenario i can see is that Elune will regrow Teldrassil. So horde could joke how they will burn this one down too if they please.

Nothing else is going to happen. Thats is IF Teldrassil is regrown at all. Basically the whole questline was about giving up, going home and starting to tend to your burned, empty, trampled gardens again. Accepting the fate in the "zen" kinda fashion (which misrepresents buddhism and zen btw) and just accepting that now there are FAR fewer of your people, you have almost no land and you basically fucked... but you all peaceful and "harmonious" and what not and you will "rebuild".

Of course "rebuilding" just means "rebuilding insofar as its not inconvenient for your enemy".

She done got Gandhied basically.

[Tanaria]

W3 Tyrande and WoTLK Sylvanas were much better.

I'm game for keeping both of them in the Shadowlands, at present. Have Velonara lead the Forsaken and Maiev lead the Night Elves.

[VladlTutushkin]

I raise my hand to name myself russian too so I get where you're coming from, thankfully young russian gals i know are growing away from that old mindset too! But anyway..

I totally agree, this is something that should really be put in a spotlight and shown to WoW "Influencers" and made to discuss It atleast, cause to me It shows the true influence for the characters and thats the men of Blizzard who (considering the recent Lawsuit) can't think straight and have a very old mind set to say the least.

Also can I just ask whichever of the mods put that Thread Warning...what kinda irl agenda are you seeing here? A second mod should have a look at that "warning", what he said is completely relevant to the topic at hand and shows no agenda so far, I understand the warning but still, I'm more worried about the Forum Moderator's agendas over the past few years rather than the posters. But then that doesn't matter, because just like Blizzard criticism is unwanted here

The way the characters act makes no sense, and people should really notice how It makes even us russian men disgusted that we see this in a billion dollar product shown to millions of people, coming from a land where the old school mentality of men x woman is still present in many places and human rights are way behind the rest of the developed world, but I digress...

It is weird how Sylvanas just really gets control, power and is enabled by the Jailer and from the beginning we were told she's his "Equal" his "Partner" but in reality, we see what they menth for her to be, a pawn, a puppet. Either the devs really have no idea where their story will go within the next year ahead of time, or they're writing this shite on purpose.

Tyranda on the other hand, should be fecking furious considering the fact she learnt Elune let the people of Teldrassil burn to be fertilizer for her sister, The Winter Queen. Mortal loves, valuable lives reduced to being fertilizer in the grand scheme of the universe. That's the problem with Blizzard's "Zooming out" idea right now, you zoom out so much, mortal lives seem like ants to the greater forces they're trying to portrait and show off here.

We shouldn't be zooming out, but zooming IN. We should be dealing with local domestic problems, how about all the homeless people westfall and the Stormwind Kingdom has had ever since Cataclysm 10 years ago? Some of which joined the Defias Brotherhood, then it got canned cause Vanessa died, but oops she's not dead in Legion no more and the Brotherhood has SOMEHOW been active since that time and Vanessa survived, even though we still dont know what the feck she or the brotherhood are doing if they're not in the Deadmines, where are they? What do they plan? Aren't the people following Vanessa still wanting to burn down Stormwind cause Varian raised the taxes during the 4th War (The actual one, not the BFA one. Meaning the one started since the Wrathgate and ending with Garrosh's Fall) and people went homeless?

It makes no sense when you zoom IN, so they should focus on that first.

Wholeheartedly agreed. The whole "zoom out" thing only exasperated the problems we had before with "forgive and forget" mentality and "demons made me do it" excuse because now we dont have to forgive some warlock for killing a peasant or worgen for mauling a family even but a genocidal barbie goth for almost ending one of the oldest races on Azeroth.

And same goes for Tyrande, now she "has" to forgive a person who nearly wiped out her race and effectively ended hernation. Because night elven nation is gone. They are a refugee race now, the only strip of land they have is Darkshore which is a plagued, war-torn, nearly uninhabitable shithole. They have no land and their culture has nowhere to "root" in, not in paved streets of Stormwind thats for sure.

[Rozz]

snip

Thread warnings are directed towards all replies in the thread, not the OP itself. I'd like users to be able to discuss lore/writing (like how the OP is doing) without someone twisting things to start crying about Twitter for the millionth time. Lord forbid the name Roux even pops up.

Ideally people should be able to talk about how they write female characters, but sometimes the forum can't handle it which is why the warning is there to at least help things stay fine for now.

[Aresk]

Per Calia while she was trying to rope Elsie into defecting, everyone was defecting save Elsie herself and those that were already with Sylvanas from Day 1. Some of them just happened to start drifting back once the dark rangers took position, ergo, they were in the process of defecting but gave up on it once it became clear they might fail. Defecting to someone screeching about being your rightful monarch in an ostensible peace summit with a power you're at war with, as the Horde and Alliance only had an armistice at the time and were still at war, constitutes high treason. If you happen to be a high official, say the administrator of the capital city, that's even more iffy. In my country, that gets you life imprisonment, but we tend to be pussies about this sort of thing. Most everywhere else that either gets you the chair or you later end up killing yourself with two shots to the back of the head.

Calia told Elsie everyone was defecting, but both Anduin's PoV and Nathanos' clearly shows that isn't the case. It seems to me more likely that Calia was attempting to persuade Elsie than she was accurately portraying the situation. We don't get Sylvanas' observations at that point, so we can't know for sure how many she thought were defecting vs not defecting, but we already know she was deadset on stamping out hope based on her dialogue with Nathanos after the fact, and we know Sylvanas was already planning to "convict" (presumably to execute) Elsie prior to Calia's reveal, back when Anduin bowed to her, allowing the meeting to go further only so she could solidify evidence to carry out the executions. Sylvanas herself speculates that those returning may have been motivated by fear and may have been tempted to defect, but given she's phrasing both of those thoughts as questions, it doesn't seem like she knows it to be the case. While it's well within her power as warchief to execute any Horde member for any reason (or no reason at all), I still wouldn't characterize those returning on the field as having committed treason, particularly with no inquiry at all into the matter.

[Super Dickmann]

Calia told Elsie everyone was defecting, but both Anduin's PoV and Nathanos' clearly shows that isn't the case. It seems to me more likely that Calia was attempting to persuade Elsie than she was accurately portraying the situation. We don't get Sylvanas' observations at that point, so we can't know for sure how many she thought were defecting vs not defecting, but we already know she was deadset on stamping out hope based on her dialogue with Nathanos after the fact, and we know Sylvanas was already planning to "convict" (presumably to execute) Elsie prior to Calia's reveal, back when Anduin bowed to her, allowing the meeting to go further only so she could solidify evidence to carry out the executions. Sylvanas herself speculates that those returning may have been motivated by fear and may have been tempted to defect, but given she's phrasing both of those thoughts as questions, it doesn't seem like she knows it to be the case. While it's well within her power as warchief to execute any Horde member for any reason (or no reason at all), I still wouldn't characterize those returning on the field as having committed treason, particularly with no inquiry at all into the matter.

We know that at the end of the day we're talking about all of 12 people. Of those 12 people, one is definitely innocent but was in a shit situation, that being Elsie. We also know that at least four - Pasqual and the three Felstones, were definitely in the process of defecting. But that doesn't really give an accurate picture because we have multiple supporting evidence that more were leaving - both Nathanos and Sylvanas herself point out that 'more and more' are drifting towards Stromgarde and Calia relies on the same when she's trying to convince Elsie to go over. We also explicitly know that those who never went in that direction like Annie weren't even targeted. Ergo, the pool of people who got shot involves only those who headed back upon being called but who were in the process of leaving before hand. Ergo, they tried to defect but as Sylvanas points out, either got cold feet at the prospect of being shot or were genuinely loyal, the latter being a bit dubious considering they tailed it for Stromgarde in the first place. It also helps to note that Sylvanas was mostly just annoyed with the whole business up until it was revealed to her that Calia Menethil was there, which is when she decided to have them shot.

Trials in the real world are there so that we can approximate the truth as closely as possible because we don't have complete insight and decide accordingly. In a narrative though, we can know certain things are objectively true, ergo, we know that the Felstones and Parqual at the least are 100% guilty, and that Elsie isn't. Elsie being a casualty of being directly by Calia while she was yelling about being their queen, so while we know she isn't a traitor no one else in the Forsaken force would have any reason to assume as much. This puts the absolute most charitable ratio at 4 out of 12 being traitors, with 1 innocent, with the ratio being as many as 11 out of 12 considering how multiple characters on either side of the conflict point out how many are drifting towards Stromgarde.

I don't hinge my argument on Sylvanas having the right to execute them as Warchief - even though she does, or as an undead autocrat or medieval monarch who'd be braindead and suicidally weak to allow her subjects to defect to a rival claimant that's backed by a superpower she's at war with. While these positions are both completely true and end arguments by themselves, they aren't necessary to justify shooting people who defect to a foreign warring state, since most modern states deal with such situations plenty harshly themselves because it is incorrigible behaviour.

[Aresk]

We know that at the end of the day we're talking about all of 12 people. Of those 12 people, one is definitely innocent but was in a shit situation, that being Elsie. We also know that at least four - Pasqual and the three Felstones, were definitely in the process of defecting. But that doesn't really give an accurate picture because we have multiple supporting evidence that more were leaving - both Nathanos and Sylvanas herself point out that 'more and more' are drifting towards Stromgarde and Calia relies on the same when she's trying to convince Elsie to go over. We also explicitly know that those who never went in that direction like Annie weren't even targeted. Ergo, the pool of people who got shot involves only those who headed back upon being called but who were in the process of leaving before hand. Ergo, they tried to defect but as Sylvanas points out, either got cold feet at the prospect of being shot or were genuinely loyal, the latter being a bit dubious considering they tailed it for Stromgarde in the first place. It also helps to note that Sylvanas was mostly just annoyed with the whole business up until it was revealed to her that Calia Menethil was there, which is when she decided to have them shot.

Trials in the real world are there so that we can approximate the truth as closely as possible because we don't have complete insight and decide accordingly. In a narrative though, we can know certain things are objectively true, ergo, we know that the Felstones and Parqual at the least are 100% guilty, and that Elsie isn't. Elsie being a casualty of being directly by Calia while she was yelling about being their queen, so while we know she isn't a traitor no one else in the Forsaken force would have any reason to assume as much. This puts the absolute most charitable ratio at 4 out of 12 being traitors, with 1 innocent, with the ratio being as many as 11 out of 12 considering how multiple characters on either side of the conflict point out how many are drifting towards Stromgarde.

I don't hinge my argument on Sylvanas having the right to execute them as Warchief - even though she does, or as an undead autocrat or medieval monarch who'd be braindead and suicidally weak to allow her subjects to defect to a rival claimant that's backed by a superpower she's at war with. While these positions are both completely true and end arguments by themselves, they aren't necessary to justify shooting people who defect to a foreign warring state, since most modern states deal with such situations plenty harshly themselves because it is incorrigible behaviour.

You can do better than that; it's confirmed that Tomas as well was defecting, which gives you 5 of 12 as defectors. We do not know the positions or motivations of the six that have gone unmentioned. We know that Parqual planned the defections, that Parqual talked with the Felstones, that the Felstones and Parqual were both strolling in the direction of Stromgarde, and that Nathanos observed "several" were heading in that direction. We know there were others who hadn't gone in that direction, because by the time Elsie turned to shout retreat and got an arrow in her chest, they were already on the way back to the wall. I can't find the "more and more" line that you are quoting, but we know that aside from Elsie, some of them were returning (confirmed by both Anduin and Nathanos). The exact quantity of "some" isn't made explicit, but we can safely say that it's probably more than one (since it's rare to use "some" to refer to a solitary item) and at most six (since at least five were killed on the way to Stromgarde and Elsie was killed in the middle of the field).

While I could agree with the assessment of the whole affair being treasonous had the Desolate Council gone behind Sylvanas' back, she had authorized the visit. She had personally overseen the event. She had given the parameters for her people to follow, and then she executed those who followed those instructions because they may have been afraid of her or tempted to (and then decided not to) stay with their loved ones governed by a rival power. We already know Elsie was not treasonous, and we know at most six others were not.

I do not follow your logic regarding "We also explicitly know that those who never went in that direction like Annie weren't even targeted. Ergo, the pool of people who got shot involves only those who headed back upon being called but who were in the process of leaving before hand." Specifically, Annie and the other nine surviving members of the Desolate Council were not on the field at the time that the horn was sounded. They were already back at the wall, and Sylvanas had already individually addressed each of them. We do not know the specific positions of six of the members of the Desolate Council. We know that at least four of them were strolling in the general direction of Stromgarde, and we can fairly safely assume Tomas was also strolling in that direction given that he was apparently as close as the Felstones and Parqual to reaching Anduin. The fact that these five were so much closer than the others, who "were much too far away" suggests that only those five had moved toward Stromgarde before the horn was sounded, and all other Forsaken on the field either started defecting after the horn was sounded, were returning to the wall, or were in the group still in the middle of the field (such as Elsie).

And again, we already know Sylvanas wanted to be rid of Elsie before the horn was sounded; she merely needed enough to convict her in the eyes of the other ten council members. The whole thing was a means for Sylvanas to persecute a group of Forsaken who didn't agree with her vision of their future, who wanted a permanent death, who wanted to see their living loved ones. She considered their ideas (or rather their "hope") to be a threat to her rule and so eliminated them after given them authorization to pursue their goals. While I agree that the five deaths were justified (and possible more), I disagree with your assessment that defection was sufficient justification for all of them, particularly given the exchange between Sylavanas and Nathanos following the executions.

[Raisei]

Don't tease me like that.

That said I find Anduin a lot more tolerable in this expansion compared to anyone else in the Unifaction cast involved in Shadowlands and even Sylvanas herself, so i'd honestly prefer if all of them got thrown under the bus and he can stick around with the caveat of the narrative remembering his trauma from being mindcontrolled.

I really don't get the hate for Anduin. He is just starting to develop into a decent character. If he survives the expansion he will go through quite the dark patch and I am hoping Danuser's Sylvanas fetish will not make Anduin into the next Banshee...Lich...King? If not it could be an interesting story ahead, but all of that could very well be discarded because we have to redeem Sylvanas, no matter the cost! We have to!
(I can literally see Danuser in meetings hanging a banner over the door with those exact words)

It is clear that the Nightelves and all her other victims will never see justice, worse we pretend they did get justice. Tyrande will hug her, call her sister and it will all be forgiven and for no reason other then Danuser being unable to let the character go and to hell with anyone else.

Heck, Sylvanas might even return to the Horde and thus trigger the "evil" Alliance under Turalyon attacking the Horde for protecting this poor innocent creature.

We do need a new reason to return the WAR to warcraft after all...

siiiiiiiiigh

[Nerovar]

Don't tease me like that.

That said I find Anduin a lot more tolerable in this expansion compared to anyone else in the Unifaction cast involved in Shadowlands and even Sylvanas herself, so i'd honestly prefer if all of them got thrown under the bus and he can stick around with the caveat of the narrative remembering his trauma from being mindcontrolled.

Really? From my point of view, they've only replaced his preachiness with whininess. Hardly more tolerable. Plus you have the added malus of having to look at his angelic, boyish face in an edgelord suit of armor while being expected to take him seriously when he points that ridiculous sword at the camera.

Though his Shadowlands lines are definitely some of my all-time favourites. The whole "I thought you believed in free will" line was perfect because it sounds exactly like something someone would say in a lore forum discussing Sylvanas. Really sold me on the idea that Anduin isn't a character inside the Warcraft universe but instead a 4th wall breaking metaphysical being that has read every novel and quest text about Sylvanas and functions as a stand-in for the worst parts of the Warcraft community.

[Super Dickmann]

You can do better than that; it's confirmed that Tomas as well was defecting, which gives you 5 of 12 as defectors. We do not know the positions or motivations of the six that have gone unmentioned. We know that Parqual planned the defections, that Parqual talked with the Felstones, that the Felstones and Parqual were both strolling in the direction of Stromgarde, and that Nathanos observed "several" were heading in that direction. We know there were others who hadn't gone in that direction, because by the time Elsie turned to shout retreat and got an arrow in her chest, they were already on the way back to the wall. I can't find the "more and more" line that you are quoting, but we know that aside from Elsie, some of them were returning (confirmed by both Anduin and Nathanos). The exact quantity of "some" isn't made explicit, but we can safely say that it's probably more than one (since it's rare to use "some" to refer to a solitary item) and at most six (since at least five were killed on the way to Stromgarde and Elsie was killed in the middle of the field).

Cheers on the correction. I entirely forgot Tomas existed as it's been a while since I've had this argument. Should've checked wowpedia. 5 out of 12 then.

The line about Nathanos observing 'several' leaving on the Forsaken side of the Gathering and Calia saying 'everyone' was leaving on the Alliance side of the conflict suggests that neither is being deceptive since both parties agree that multiple people are in the process of drifting towards Stromgarde as the meeting goes on. Crucially, this is going on before the horn is sounded as the Forsaken on the walls observe the general movement towards Stromgarde and this is what makes Sylvanas give the signal to retreat in the first place and Calia is swaying Elsie to defect too with that as reasoning. That after the signal was given and the Dark Rangers started shooting people were beginning to head back is both true and not relevant to the case I'm making, which is that they were in the process of defecting and give up on it upon being threatened and that the number of those doing so is higher than the confirmed five.

The whole bit regarding it not being treason because Sylvanas authorized the meeting is inaccurate because there are two separate events. There's Sylvanas seeing that the Desolate Council were drifting too close to Stromgarde for comfort and she sounds the horn to call them back. Then she's told that Calia is among them and she decides to shoot them because that recontextualizes what they're doing. There's a difference between them meeting their family or even hanging around a location close to the Alliance and joining up with a competitor for the throne who's backed by the Alliance. One is in keeping with the meeting, the latter is treason and it's the latter that takes place and it's why Sylvanas gives the killing order rather than letting her loyalty check play out and why she dismisses those coming back as unreliable. If you attempt to defect and then pussy out because of a threat to your life, you're not any more innocent simply because you failed in the attempt. She states this verbatim regarding not being able to tell who's motivated by fear and who by loyalty. We have reason to believe most are the former given that 'several' or 'everyone' of the twelve was leaving.

What I'm getting at regarding Annie is the same point you're making - we know that those targeted were all those who were returning or ran further off, not those who'd already come back. We know that 'several 'or 'everyone' was heading for Stromgarde before that point. So an indeterminate number above zero of the remaining six was in the process of defecting outside those we know by name. As you also point out we know that upon the order being given, some sped up their jog for Stromgarde which also gives you a pretty clear idea of their allegiance before hand, whereas those heading back are indeterminate and Elsie we know factually is innocent, but none of the characters save Calia know this or have reason to believe it given she ignores the horn call to finish her conversation and is right next to the other claimant.

As regards Sylvanas's plans re: Elsie, I don't recall her ever committing to having Elsie killed after the meeting. What she intended was to discredit the Desolate Council and consequently their positions because she believed their hope of reconciliation was just going to end up poorly. Hence why she was happy at the start but once Anduin's holy aura swayed them to the One True Path she started getting pissed and gave the signal for them to come back to test their loyalty. She only committed to executing the Council when news of Calia reached her. We can't discount she'd have them disappeared even if it had went differently but we also have no hard proof on it. If there's something in the book to that effect send it my way.

I really don't get the hate for Anduin. He is just starting to develop into a decent character. If he survives the expansion he will go through quite the dark patch and I am hoping Danuser's Sylvanas fetish will not make Anduin into the next Banshee...Lich...King? If not it could be an interesting story ahead, but all of that could very well be discarded because we have to redeem Sylvanas, no matter the cost! We have to!
(I can literally see Danuser in meetings hanging a banner over the door with those exact words)

It is clear that the Nightelves and all her other victims will never see justice, worse we pretend they did get justice. Tyrande will hug her, call her sister and it will all be forgiven and for no reason other then Danuser being unable to let the character go and to hell with anyone else.

Heck, Sylvanas might even return to the Horde and thus trigger the "evil" Alliance under Turalyon attacking the Horde for protecting this poor innocent creature.

We do need a new reason to return the WAR to warcraft after all...

siiiiiiiiigh

They're too attached to Calia to have Sylvanas returned as Forsaken leader sadly, besides, the writers do not want war in Warcraft. They will eventually do conflict because that's how the game works, but for the foreseeable they didn't neuter Jaina, Tyrande, etc. and turn the entire Horde into the parody of itself it is now in order to enable conflict. They also didn't have Turalyon find out that Anduin was right about the Forsaken and that Xe'ra went too far despite being infused with the Light so he can lead a conflict but the very opposite.

What will happen is that she and most likely Arthas as well will get hackkneed redemption plot sped through in one patch and then get put in the emergency box with Illidan for later use. Re: Anduin:

Really? From my point of view, they've only replaced his preachiness with whininess. Hardly more tolerable. Plus you have the added malus of having to look at his angelic, boyish face in an edgelord suit of armor while being expected to take him seriously when he points that ridiculous sword at the camera.

Though his Shadowlands lines are definitely some of my all-time favourites. The whole "I thought you believed in free will" line was perfect because it sounds exactly like something someone would say in a lore forum discussing Sylvanas. Really sold me on the idea that Anduin isn't a character inside the Warcraft universe but instead a 4th wall breaking metaphysical being that has read every novel and quest text about Sylvanas and functions as a stand-in for the worst parts of the Warcraft community.

Anduin has been a pestilent writer's mouthpiece since at latest Mists. What's different now as compared to especially BFA is that he's actually suffered some kind of personal cost for this. He has some kind of arc in the story that hasn't been done with his character prior. The same can't be said for Jaina, Thrall, Baine, Calia etc. who are not only also writer's mouthpieces for the exact same shit, but are also narratively hollow as they have no arc in the story. They could be cut and replaced with a particularly large gun to kill baddies and zero of the goings on would change nor would they be any poorer for it as characters.

His sixth sense regarding Sylvanas's character route and such powerful lines as 'Wow Arthas would do this' and 'Wow, i thought you were good, but you were actually bad' are of course bad, but not any more than it was when he did the same shit verbatim regarding Garrosh in War Crimes. Anduin has been the most meta character of all and the ultimate conduit for the writers for his entire time in the setting starting even in Cataclysm regarding Baine, where he inherited the role from Thrall/peacenik Jaina. He's simply more tolerable because there's something going on with his character where everyone else is either static - like everyone in the Azeroth cast, episodic - like the Shadowlands guys, or Sylvanas - the less said about that plot the better. I am more interested in whether Blizzard commit to him being at least mildly sad for being a slave of Satan than I am in the fate of anyone else we brought with us. Though that says more about them than Anduin, after sacrificing every other character and aspect of the setting to position him as a comic book/anime protagonist, he's also the only one who can progress in some way.