Maybe the game should be designed for mythic raiders?

[arkanon]

He knows i was just using the other guys description for a caual player. He is just being pedantic me thinks.

So people can claim those who raid mythic are "0.001%" of the playerbase, and that there are more people playing for 80+ hours per week than there are those raiding mythic, but im being "pedantic" for calling it out as false?

When the core of the argument is how many players partake in each playstyle, its important to at least be genuine when making claims - im not asking for scientifically verified data on who does what in game, but i also reserve the right to completely reject the ridiculous numbers being thrown around. When the ENTIRE argument is "more people do A than B" and then someone just completely makes up numbers for A and B, yeah, im gonna call out the bullshit.

[DookuDookuTree]

It's designed to hide skill so there will always be players playing, the players themselves even don't know they suck.

[arkanon]

I know one.

Do you know any mythic raiders on your realm or other realms?

[Empower]

If it needs anything, WoW needs more open world content that matters. Groups form organically for challenging outdoor content, rares, etc...
Raiding is just a lobby side-game that feels very disconnected from the game. All it does is break the, albeit lackluster, story telling by hiding parts of it in raids and/or telling it out of order, such as killing Denathrius before the Covenant stories even finished releasing.
Some of the best interactions I've had in WoW have been from things like camping a rare or working towards spawning one that requires more than just waiting. Meanwhile, most raid groups I've been in are all about getting in and out as fast as possible and if someone messes up half the group rage quits.

It's been 16 years give or take with beta and wow has yet to make engaging world content... let it go.

There seems to be some general confusion as well to what I'm proposing.

The idea isn't to turn the game into mythic only. It is to focus on that content. Have every patch drop 3-6 dungeons rather then power systems. So far all we got is veiled market and it's kind of a meh dungeon few people do because the bosses rely heavily on rng or voice comms to do ( god I hope veiled market is never introduced into mythic plus).

[arkanon]

It's designed to hide skill so there will always be players playing, the players themselves even don't know they suck.

This is actually something wow does really well. I used to run a heroic pug once a week with 'friends and family' and we would get applicants every week who were better suited to LFR, or MAYBE a normal mode guild group learning as they go. But they were always STUNNED when they either realised or were politely told they were way below the standard required - im talking DPS being well below the tanks on ST fights etc, not just "need a bit of work" but at least one entire difficulty below where they think they are, and thats without having to do any of the mechanics we could keep them out of.

- - - Updated - - -

If it needs anything, WoW needs more open world content that matters. Groups form organically for challenging outdoor content, rares, etc...
Raiding is just a lobby side-game that feels very disconnected from the game. All it does is break the, albeit lackluster, story telling by hiding parts of it in raids and/or telling it out of order, such as killing Denathrius before the Covenant stories even finished releasing.
Some of the best interactions I've had in WoW have been from things like camping a rare or working towards spawning one that requires more than just waiting. Meanwhile, most raid groups I've been in are all about getting in and out as fast as possible and if someone messes up half the group rage quits.

When has this ever been the core of wow? in close to two decades, it never has been, why would it change now? I dont mind open world content, but its a difficult thing to balance. It will ALWAYS be EXTREMELY simplistic and easy, because it always has and always will be targeted at the casual solo play crowd. The rewards simply cannot be "good" compared to mythic or heroic, and i dont see a world where it is a serious progression path. I like the world bosses with mounts etc, thats cool, but raid gear? One chance at one item once a week, sure, but an actual gearing path? nah.

If by content that "matters" you mean engaging story telling or some form of world progression, again, thats not wow, and it never has been in close to two decades of development. There have been a couple of short lived exceptions, but it really was just one small patch in 9 "games" worth of content.

[Hastis]

they also could create new dungeon in minor patches like X.X.5 creating 1 dungeon in this time shouldnt take more than 6 months...

[Swnem]

You think power grinds and systems are for casuals?

The game is already designed for e-sports. The mythic raider and the elite arena player.

What it needs is quite the opposite. It needs to be more RPG, have a bigger variety of activities and drop the e-sports focus for world building and fun.

If anything, i think mythic and high end pvp focus are what needs to go.

[MoanaLisa]

So people can claim those who raid mythic are "0.001%" of the playerbase, and that there are more people playing for 80+ hours per week than there are those raiding mythic, but im being "pedantic" for calling it out as false?

When the core of the argument is how many players partake in each playstyle, its important to at least be genuine when making claims - im not asking for scientifically verified data on who does what in game, but i also reserve the right to completely reject the ridiculous numbers being thrown around. When the ENTIRE argument is "more people do A than B" and then someone just completely makes up numbers for A and B, yeah, im gonna call out the bullshit.

I'm going to do this from memory so proceed with caution (but I have a decent memory):

It's been a while since the site has run the numbers on raid participation and completion of bosses in a raid tier. The last I remember it was somewhere just south of 8% had finished a first raid boss in mythic after the raid had been out a few months. Range of time is critical as raids are made easier and people get geared up as the expansion moves on to newer instanced content. The numbers went down drastically from there as you proceeded through bosses until it was down to somewhere around 1%-2% for end bosses.

I have no numbers on who plays how much and that would be anecdotal anyway since Blizzard doesn't release that. It's fine to take the pedantic approach to numbers and I don't have a problem with that. I doubt that there are very many players any longer that play 80 hours a week but there's no way to know and when someone says that here you don't know if they're boasting or in need of mental assistance. Just reading forums it seems that a lot of people are complaining about how long they have to play and what they need to do to keep up. I don't recommend either side of that: Play as much as you feel comfortable with and stop when it gets tiresome / There's no real need other than social pressure to 'keep up.' It should be resisted. In either case it's not Blizzard's fault or problem that anyone is overdoing it (despite the rare news stories about people dying in their gaming chairs). Blizzard is not your parent.

Bottom line: There may be more people than known that take a crack at mythic but getting the achievements and bosses down as a measure of success is relatively difficult and well beyond either the desire, skill or interest of most (90%+).

[Deadite]

So people can claim those who raid mythic are "0.001%" of the playerbase, and that there are more people playing for 80+ hours per week than there are those raiding mythic, but im being "pedantic" for calling it out as false?

When the core of the argument is how many players partake in each playstyle, its important to at least be genuine when making claims - im not asking for scientifically verified data on who does what in game, but i also reserve the right to completely reject the ridiculous numbers being thrown around. When the ENTIRE argument is "more people do A than B" and then someone just completely makes up numbers for A and B, yeah, im gonna call out the bullshit.

I thought you were being pedantic over the fact that i used 80+ hours description from the OP as a casual player. If you genuinely thought i ment that your normal casual player is playing that much then let me clear that up. My claim is that compared to people who raid mythic the rest of the player bases out numbers them by millions.

[arkanon]

I thought you were being pedantic over the fact that i used 80+ hours description from the OP as a casual player. If you genuinely thought i ment that your normal casual player is playing that much then let me clear that up. My claim is that compared to people who raid mythic the rest of the player bases out numbers them by millions.

"by millions" - where did you come up with this number from? What makes you think wow even has "millions" of players, let alone casuals outnumbering them by "millions"? This is what im talking about. I am not arguing that mythic raiders are the majority. The argument was made that far more people play 80+ hours per week than raid, and so no one would even notice if every single mythic raider quit the game, but if the 80+ hour/week players quit, the game would die.

I completely disagree with this for a few reasons, partly because i doubt there are many people playing 80+ hours per week, but also because I cant take someone seriously when they also think mythic raiders make up "0.001%" of the players. To put that in perspective, that would be somewhere between 10 and 40 PLAYERS - yes, one raid team in the entire world raid mythic according to these people.

The counter argument of "bro its just hyperbole obviously" would be ok, if they then produced some actual evidence to support their claim, but they dont. Just saying "bro its just an exaggeration" doesnt help the argument AT ALL when the argument is entirely based on those numbers.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yes, please design the game to cater pretty much only to hardcore raiders. It'll be the final knife in the heart of the game.

[Empower]

Yes, please design the game to cater pretty much only to hardcore raiders. It'll be the final knife in the heart of the game.

I think what people are failing to see is in doing so they cater to the most people...

Take wow right now. Covenants , conduits, torghast, legendary items, and most mounts are targeted at casual players as long term progression goals. The problem is of course they rarely care to the point few seem to actively perceive conduits as power.

If you made more raids and dungeons you instantly have them across all difficulties greatly expanding that content. Everyone wins unlike the current system where it seems everyone loses.

[TheRevenantHero]

Blizzard shouldn't only listen to mythic raiders for game design because they'd want those dungeons that are added to be pre-patch Cataclysm level difficult so casuals can get fucked.

[Hitei]

Do you know any mythic raiders on your realm or other realms?

No, I do not.

[darklogrus]

So people can claim those who raid mythic are "0.001%" of the playerbase, and that there are more people playing for 80+ hours per week than there are those raiding mythic, but im being "pedantic" for calling it out as false?

When the core of the argument is how many players partake in each playstyle, its important to at least be genuine when making claims - im not asking for scientifically verified data on who does what in game, but i also reserve the right to completely reject the ridiculous numbers being thrown around. When the ENTIRE argument is "more people do A than B" and then someone just completely makes up numbers for A and B, yeah, im gonna call out the bullshit.

I mean have we come to an agreement on what constitutes a Mythic Raider?

[arkanon]

No, I do not.

So there are no mythic raiders on your realm that you are aware of? So you genuinely believe there is a very strong possibility noone on your realm has killed any mythic bosses? What realm are you on?

[delus]

Ff14 isn't designed around savage raiders.

[MoanaLisa]

Covenants , conduits, torghast, legendary items, and most mounts are targeted at casual players as long term progression goals. The problem is of course they rarely care to the point few seem to actively perceive conduits as power.

This sort of assumption is just as bogus as the 80-hour player stuff. There's zero data to support this conclusion. If we can obsess pedantically over every assumption that gets stated and discount them for lack of hard data, this one is easy. There's no way to prove or even quantify it.

[delus]

I think they should add Mythic keystone raids that don't really provide better loot and scale to impossible difficulty with a world leaderboard though. Completely unbalanced and ridiculously hard. Just throw affixes into raids.

[Hitei]

So there are no mythic raiders on your realm that you are aware of? So you genuinely believe there is a very strong possibility noone on your realm has killed any mythic bosses? What realm are you on?

No? There are none that I know. You asked about knowing people who play 80+ hours a week, in disbelief that such a thing exists in any serious number. I personally know 0 mythic raiders and one person who plays 80+ hours a week.

If you want to talk general realm estimates, I'm sure there are plenty of mythic raiders, but a tiny minority compared to the number of casual players who play a lot.