Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[Forogil]

Yeah, the fact that Olympians and professional sports athletes are also being hospitalized and in many cases dying due to the virus kinda flies in the face of the whole "omg if you're healthy you have nothing to worry about!" bullshit.

Is that a fact?

Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ue_to_COVID-19 we find lots listed as athletes, but looking a bit further:

Llorenç Cassi 79 Athlete and coach
Mary Roman 84 Athlete and community leader
Santiago Llorente Fernández 55 Athlete (and masseur)
Pearson Jordan 69 Athlete
José Antonio Martínez Bayó 67 Athlete
Robert Beck 83 Pentathlete and fencer
Adlin Mair-Clarke 78 Athlete
Donato Sabia 56 Athlete
Francisco Aritmendi 81 Athlete
Peter Whiteside 67 Modern pentathlete
Francesco Perrone 89 Athlete
Reynaldo Salazar 65 Athlete
Attila Horváth 53 Athlete (competed in 1992 and 1996 Olympics)
Vladimir Ivanov 65 Athlete
Arnie Robinson 72 Athlete
Huba Rozsnyai 77 Athlete
Milka Babović 92 Athlete and journalist
Danial Jahić 41 Athlete (seemed to have peaked before 2005)
Marius van Heerden 46 Athlete (competed in 1996 Olympics)
Ulisses dos Santos 91 Athlete
Roseli Machado 52 Athlete (competed in 1996 Olympics)
Vassilios Sevastis 71 Athlete
Surat Mathur 90 Athlete
Joel Otim 49 Athlete (competed in 1992 Olympics, personal best in 1990)
Milkha Singh 91 Athlete

and just looking at various sports:

Qiu Jun 72 Bodybuilder
Italo De Zan 94 Cyclist
Innocenzo Donina 69 Footballer
Hans Knudsen 75 Canoer
Benito Joanet 84 Footballer and coach
Pierluigi Consonni 71 Footballer
Mohamed Farah 59 Footballer
Danilo Barozzi 92 Cyclist
Daniel Yuste 75 Cyclist
Orlando McDaniel 59 American football player (played for Denvor Broncos in 1982)
Azam Khan 83 Squash player
José Luis Capón 72 Footballer
Angelo Rottoli 61 Boxer
Jorge Chica 68 Footballer
Ivo Mahlknecht 80 Skier
Goyo Benito 73 Footballer
Arnold Sowinski 89 Footballer
Tom Dempsey 73 American football player
Christophe Pras 36 Rugby union player and coach (seems he competed in 2006-2007 at regional level and then became a coach)
Miguel Jones 81 Footballer
Francesco La Rosa 93 Footballer
David Méresse 89 Footballer and coach
Frits Flinkevleugel 80 Footballer
Francisco Aritmendi 81 Athlete
Brian Arrowsmith 79 Footballer and manager
Zafar Sarfraz 50 Cricketer
Cyril Lawrence 99 Footballer
Jim Fraser 83 American football player
Norman Hunter 76 Footballer
Urano Navarrini 74 Footballer and manager

... - too many let's focus on the young ones:

Shobushi 28 Sumo wrestler (active seems mostly in shokkiri, comic sumo)
Cristopher Mansilla 30 Track and road cyclist (peaked 2011-2016)
Jairo Castillo 31 Baseball player and scout (released by the Mets 2011)
Vladislav Yegin 32 Ice hockey player
Jagdish Lad 34 Bodybuilder (retired 2017)

So, being a former Olympic or professional sport athlete does not protect you; and only two of the sporting persons listed were active - but they weren't at an Olympic level. I also noticed that some of the younger former athletes seemed to have become rather chubby - and that also applies even more to the most notable young athlete, Shobushi; showing that athletes aren't always peak healthiness.

[Benggaul]

Is that a fact?

Yes. It is.

Since you're choosing to focus only on one part of what I said--deaths--ask the families of LaWayne Ross, Patrick Sanders and Deibert Frans Roman Guzmán, to name a few. There are many more who have been hospitalized including Oscar De La Hoya who is still in fantastic shape and was training for a fight. And then there are some long-term complications that can arise with a COVID infection such as myocarditis.

Think Covid-19 can't harm healthy, young athletes? Think again

This isn't up for debate, and I'm not wasting my time further doing so.

[caractacus]

Yes. It is.

Since you're choosing to focus only on one part of what I said--deaths--ask the families of LaWayne Ross, Patrick Sanders and Deibert Frans Roman Guzmán, to name a few. There are many more who have been hospitalized including Oscar De La Hoya who is still in fantastic shape and was training for a fight. And then there are some long-term complications that can arise with a COVID infection such as myocarditis.

Think Covid-19 can't harm healthy, young athletes? Think again

This isn't up for debate, and I'm not wasting my time further doing so.

You do know that what you linked is a 9 month old article speculating about a covid related collapse that turn out not to be covid related at all?

[unfilteredJW]

You do know that what you linked is a 9 month old article speculating about a covid related collapse that turn out not to be covid related at all?

You do know that there’s more to the article than that?

[Forogil]

Yes. It is.

Since you're choosing to focus only on one part of what I said--deaths--ask the families of LaWayne Ross, Patrick Sanders and Deibert Frans Roman Guzmán, to name a few.

LaWayne Ross's career was 2016-2018, so already over and not Olympic athlete.
Patrick Sanders was still active, but just in high-school football - I couldn't see if he was outstanding in any way.
Deibert Román Guzmán was active, but in a minor club in Bolivia's 2nd division.

All of those deaths are still tragic, but they are not Olympian-level active athletes. Obviously there may be some athlete at that level that was missed in the lists, but the majority of the cases are among the elderly, and among younger persons several of the risk factors are associated with a non-healthy life.

The fact that a footballer in the 2nd division in Bolivia was noticed is exactly because it was unusual for active footballers in the high divisions.

It doesn't mean that there is no risk for young healthy persons, just that we shouldn't overstate the risks or misunderstand who is most at risk.

This isn't up for debate.

- - - Updated - - -

You do know that there’s more to the article than that?

The rest isn't that accurate either.

It cites a study that 15% of athletes had signs of myocarditis after covid-19, a later larger study by the same team (and possibly more) got that to 2.3% instead (the majority subclinical) - and the average among studies is even lower. It may be that the infection of the heart simply disappears with the rest of the symptoms. If so that is important for checking when athletes can safely return to the sports, and how to check that, but not for much else.

Added: The study was published in JAMA Cardiology, and reading more closely saying that 2.3% had myocarditis (majority subclinical) is still over-stating the result. The technical detail is that the tests found 37 with signs that might indicate myocarditis (out of 1597 athletes from the Big Ten), 9 with clinical and 28 subclinical - but 20 of the subclinical seem to be classified as "subclinical possible myocarditis" (the remaining 8 were "probable"); so saying that they had "myocarditis" is a bit of a stretch.

Additionally repeat testing 4-10 weeks later found that a large percentage no longer had signs of myocarditis. Whether the same will be true for the others isn't clear - but at least the percentage is smaller.

Clearly this is important for getting players back on the field, but shouldn't be used as scaremongering.

[unfilteredJW]

LaWayne Ross's career was 2016-2018, so already over and not Olympic athlete.
Patrick Sanders was still active, but just in high-school football - I couldn't see if he was outstanding in any way.
Deibert Román Guzmán was active, but in a minor club in Bolivia's 2nd division.

All of those deaths are still tragic, but they are not Olympian-level active athletes. Obviously there may be some athlete at that level that was missed, but the majority of the cases are among the elderly, and among younger persons several of the risk factors are associated with a non-healthy life.

The fact that a footballer in the 2nd division in Bolivia was noticed is exactly because it was unusual for active footballers in the high divisions.

It doesn't mean that there is no risk for young healthy persons, just that we shouldn't overstate the risks or misunderstand who is most at risk.

This isn't up for debate.

- - - Updated - - -


The rest isn't that accurate either.

It cites a study that 15% of athletes had signs of myocarditis after covid-19, a later larger study by the same team (and possibly more) got that to 2.3% instead (the majority subclinical) - and the average among studies is even lower. It may be that the infection of the heart simply disappears with the rest of the symptoms. If so that is important for checking when athletes can safely return to the sports, and how to check that, but not for much else.

Sure thing

[Edge-]

Then on the other hand you have this idea that nobody should ever die of anything, ever, which is completely absurd and impossible.

I don't think anyone honestly believes this nonsense and it's a strawman you've created.

[PhaelixWW]

California COVID divide: stark correlation between counties’ vaccination and case rates

When it comes to COVID-19 vaccination and case rates, Marin is leading the way – from the bottom of the list.

An analysis by the Bay Area News Group shows that every California county with a vaccination rate under 50% had more than 25 new cases in the previous 14 days per 10,000 residents. In the Bay Area, where vaccination rates range from 64% to 82%, there is not a single county with a case rate over 20.

Marin County is outperforming all other counties with the highest vaccination rate and lowest case rate in the state. In an examination of vaccination data through Sep. 20 and 14-day case rates per 10,000 residents through Sep. 21, Marin ranked last with a 9.7 case rate and 81.5% of population with at least one dose. Modoc, Alpine, and Sierra counties were excluded because they have fewer than 10k residents.

[Rasulis]

California COVID divide: stark correlation between counties’ vaccination and case rates

I understand what the article and graph were trying to say. However, I am not sure that comparing one of the most privileged county in California with some of the poorest makes much sense. The overall community health gap between Marin and San Joaquin is huge. It also explains why Northern California and Central Valley regions never warm up to the Democrats. All those counties felt that they have been left behind by the coastal counties.



- - - Updated - - -

From Kentucky Fried Chicken. Oops. I meant Kaiser Family Foundation.

[Rasulis]

Somebody posted an article on the Covid cost to society. The article used an average hospitalization cost of 20k. Turned out it was way off.

National Average Charge for a Complex Hospital Stay for COVID-19 Is $317,810, FAIR Health Finds, and $74,951 for General Hospitalization.

[Forogil]

From Kentucky Fried Chicken. Oops. I meant Kaiser Family Foundation.

Interesting, but they missed the question that was previously seen as most significant for not getting vaccinated - voting for Trump (yes, that was a stronger indicator than Republican).

But some of the statistics makes sense - elderly and the ones with serious health conditions have more reasons to get vaccinated, some is political, and some may indicate a general health illiteracy - like lack of college degree being low, and uninsured under 65 being the least vaccinated.

- - - Updated - - -

Ghoulish..

To me trying to giving people the wrong information is worse; both because the elderly will take less precautions and because excessive precautions may lead to an unhealthy sedentary life-style that increase the risk of severe covid-19 and other problems.

[Elegiac]

To me trying to giving people the wrong information is worse; both because the elderly will take less precautions

"Telling young people it's not just an old people's disease will make old people careless" sure is a funny excuse for pedantry.

[PhaelixWW]

I understand what the article and graph were trying to say. However, I am not sure that comparing one of the most privileged county in California with some of the poorest makes much sense. The overall community health gap between Marin and San Joaquin is huge. It also explains why Northern California and Central Valley regions never warm up to the Democrats. All those counties felt that they have been left behind by the coastal counties.

What the heck does "privilege" inherently have to do with vaccination and case rates? The vaccine is free and available to all, and the virus doesn't discriminate based on "privilege".

Also, that seems like a strange criticism from someone who is constantly showcasing SF numbers.

[Biglog]

Florida had been reeling badly from cases recently, DeSantis doing an exceptionally bad job managing it for them. But on the good side the FL vaccination rate increased by almost 31k in just 2 days, so maybe the message is finally getting through to the holdouts. Seeing so many unvaccinated Floridians around them dying and/or hospitalized must have changed some minds.

The numbers show people are at exponentially higher risk of dying without the vaccine than with it. Over 2B people have been vaccinated globally now, and it's been given for well over a year now. It's FDA approved now, it is not 'in testing', and we aren't being used as guinea pigs. And even then, if you don't want it and choose to live with being unable to participate in a lot of things that will require it for the safety of others, you don't have to get it.

You get vaccinated so you can get out and still participate in social activity and life safely. It's the unvaccinated that won't be able to go in certain places that will be more sedentary, not the other way around. More and more public events and social gatherings, concerts, possibly plane travel, etc. are already requiring proof of vaccination to ensure the safety of others, so it's the unvaccinated that are already sitting at home. I just attended a concert that required it, unvaxxed could not attend. That's only going to increase as they are a smaller high-risk part of the population. Anti-vaxxers will be treated similarly to the way cigarette smokers have been for decades, where they can exist, but as frowned upon outcasts that the majority public does not want anywhere near them. They are about to get a lot of the equivalent of, sure you can smoke...as long as it's in our smoking section...which is outside, behind the building in the back alley, next to the dumpster.

[Forogil]

What the fuck are you talking about. This is a ridiculous excuse for your behaviour.

You've just made up shit to justify you coldly analyzing peoples perceived fitness based on basically nothing just to try win an internet argument, log off.

What did I make up when showing the lack of active Olympian athletes dying due to covid-19?

That myocarditis is less of an issue than reported earlier? That was from a peer-reviewed leading journal and the previous study-author was part of it.
That many have gotten more sedentary and that is concerning? I hadn't looked - but obviously that has also been studied, and generally holds true. https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/7/1/e000960 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34487515/

[Rasulis]

What the heck does "privilege" inherently have to do with vaccination and case rates? The vaccine is free and available to all, and the virus doesn't discriminate based on "privilege".

Also, that seems like a strange criticism from someone who is constantly showcasing SF numbers.

The vaccine is free. I still think that it is pertinent to note that communities in the upper health quartile tend to have higher vaccination rate. In fact the gap can be very large. There are exceptions. San Francisco did a very good job of reaching out to the lower health quartile communities which actually have higher vaccination rates than the higher quartile communities (see below).

I am not blind to the fact that San Francisco is a privileged city/county. True of all nine Bay Area counties. I enjoyed showcasing the Covid numbers both out of pride and also because I believe that the US could have been in a much better place if more regions had emulated San Francisco’s pandemic approach. Which unfortunately has been missing in a lot of the national discussion regarding Covid.

[PhaelixWW]

I still think that it is pertinent to note...

No. The article's point was drawing a parallel between vaccination rate and case rate. The only thing that matters to vaccination rate is the opinion of the people in the area. If it was simply because they were less "privileged", then they should be lining up for a free shot that might keep them from those high hospitalization costs that you posted, especially if the standard of care would be lower, as well.

The difference here is one of ideology, not "privilege".

[Edge-]

The difference here is one of ideology, not "privilege".

Except that, like with everything, it plays a role. We've already seen some of this play out in FL - https://www.statnews.com/2021/03/04/...te-floridians/

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/...ts/4166875001/

Yes, there's some interconnecting of ideology with privilege. Yes there are other factors that come into play as well. But the reality is privilege remains a part of who has access to vaccines, and when they got access to them. If you're rural and there's no vaccination site for 20+ miles and you don't have transportation, it's far more difficult to get vaccinated than it is for someone living in a suburb with their own car and multiple vaccination sites within a 10 minute drive.

[PhaelixWW]

Yes, there's some interconnecting of ideology with privilege.

Interconnection is not causation. The ideology and the lack of "privilege" often go hand-in-hand, but due to other, third-hand reasons. People are not part of that ideology simply because they're poor, nor are they poor simply because they live in those counties.

And again, none of that really matters when the vaccine is free and can save you tens to hundreds of thousands in hospital bills (not to mention death).

If you're rural and there's no vaccination site for 20+ miles and you don't have transportation, it's far more difficult to get vaccinated than it is for someone living in a suburb with their own car and multiple vaccination sites within a 10 minute drive.

I have, in fact, lived in exactly the kind of location in California about which you're talking. Where I lived, it would have been at least 20 minutes to the nearest vaccination. Then again, it was 20 minutes to the nearest grocery store, too (which almost assuredly has a pharmacy and does vaccinations). So if I had no way of getting there on a routine basis, I would have probably starved to death. The subset of people who would have no way to make it to a vaccination center twice in half a year for a potentially life- and savings-saving vaccination is so vanishingly small as to be negligible. We're not talking about elections, where the lack of a ride on a very specific single day can have huge impacts.

Frankly, even if you're rural and can't make it 20 miles to the nearest vaccination location, then you're likely not coming into contact with enough people to propagate COVID all that much in the first place. The fact that these areas are seeing high case rates means that, collectively, they're traveling enough that, if they wanted to, they could get the vaccine.

Also, there are people in "privileged" areas that meet those same specifications, even if the closest site isn't 20 miles away.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Interconnection is not causation. The ideology and the lack of "privilege" often go hand-in-hand, but due to other, third-hand reasons. People are not part of that ideology simply because they're poor, nor are they poor simply because they live in those counties.

And again, none of that really matters when the vaccine is free and can save you tens to hundreds of thousands in hospital bills (not to mention death).



I have, in fact, lived in exactly the kind of location in California about which you're talking. Where I lived, it would have been at least 20 minutes to the nearest vaccination. Then again, it was 20 minutes to the nearest grocery store, too (which almost assuredly has a pharmacy and does vaccinations). So if I had no way of getting there on a routine basis, I would have probably starved to death. The subset of people who would have no way to make it to a vaccination center twice in half a year for a potentially life- and savings-saving vaccination is so vanishingly small as to be negligible. We're not talking about elections, where the lack of a ride on a very specific single day can have huge impacts.

Frankly, even if you're rural and can't make it 20 miles to the nearest vaccination location, then you're likely not coming into contact with enough people to propagate COVID all that much in the first place. The fact that these areas are seeing high case rates means that, collectively, they're traveling enough that, if they wanted to, they could get the vaccine.

Also, there are people in "privileged" areas that meet those same specifications, even if the closest site isn't 20 miles away.

Did you own a car in this scenario?