Could the current Sylvanas defeat Knaak's Malfurion?

[Aucald]

Yes, it strengthens Grommash, but not his ax, so why are you talking about it?

I'm not talking about his ax specifically. Nor did I specifically mention it strengthening his ax. I'm unsure why you're talking about it, as well.

Again I tell you one thing, and you mean another. Are we arguing about being able to sharpen / dodge an ax or bullet, or about being able to outlive it? Because Sylvanas of any time period could become incorporeal and not receive a bullet in the forehead. It's not the same as getting and surviving

At this point, I'm not entirely sure what we're talking about. You shift goalposts and introduce ambiguities quite a bit, and then seem to want to blame others for it? I was always talking about in-game and/or lore-based mechanisms for either surviving or simply soaking a variety of attacks, and the reasons as to why certain NPC's might be able to do that in some contexts and not in others (e.g. being empowered, being surprised, etc.) Just to ensure we're on the same page.

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You ever evade bug a sheep?

Yes, but "evade bugging" is something I would say is down to pure game system issues and has no real place in lore. Not quite the same thing as class abilities or restrictions, per se.

[darkoms]

I'm not talking about his ax specifically. Nor did I specifically mention it strengthening his ax. I'm unsure why you're talking about it, as well.



At this point, I'm not entirely sure what we're talking about. You shift goalposts and introduce ambiguities quite a bit, and then seem to want to blame others for it? I was always talking about in-game and/or lore-based mechanisms for either surviving or simply soaking a variety of attacks, and the reasons as to why certain NPC's might be able to do that in some contexts and not in others (e.g. being empowered, being surprised, etc.) Just to ensure we're on the same page.

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Yes, but "evade bugging" is something I would say is down to pure game system issues and has no real place in lore. Not quite the same thing as class abilities or restrictions, per se.

Wait. My position has not changed since my first answer. You say that Sylvanas can take a bullet in the head because she survived the raid. I tell you that Thrall in the game has withstood the beams of fel from the ships of the Legion. You say that he could do it because of his connection with nature. I tell you that Cenarius is connected with nature and could not withstand the blow of the ax. You say that someone connected with nature could do this if they used a stone skin spell or healing or something. Now you want to say that I am accusing you of something? Thrall withstood the fel beams just like that. He had no stone armor or spiritual shield. This is why I say that such game moments (especially raid battles) are not very reliable in terms of the shown character strength, if they do not reflect some specific lore situation. I'm telling you that Cenarius and Malfurion will not survive an ax blow to the head. Just the very fact of it. Not that Cenarius cannot use stoneskin and survive, but that if he does nothing, he will not survive the blow. So is Sylvanas. Sylvanas CAN use incorporeal or some other death magic and much more to survive or dodge. But if you shoot her right in the head, she won't survive. In your comment, you said as if the current Sylvanas can take a bullet in the head and she won't care because she faced much more damage in the raid. You also said that Malfurion was easily defeated with an ax, but now you say that someone connected with Life can withstand the blow of the ax if they use any spell. So I'm not sure that we are on the same wavelength because I can't keep up with you.

[Grazrug]

Sylvanas steps on everyone and gets away with it. Because she is the best character ever. Hail Sylvanas. May she return and lead the Horde again. Lok'tar.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Sylvanas steps on everyone and gets away with it. Because she is the best character ever. Hail Sylvanas. May she return and lead the Horde again. Lok'tar.

Literally worst warchief of all time.

[Talrath]

Been reading this thread and it really has become something where the OP wants to convince others of his opinion while the name of the thread has a more open discussion vibe going on. Should be like a statement thread, like ''Knaak Malfurion is stronger than current Sylvanis''.

[darkoms]

Been reading this thread and it really has become something where the OP wants to convince others of his opinion while the name of the thread has a more open discussion vibe going on. Should be like a statement thread, like ''Knaak Malfurion is stronger than current Sylvanis''.

I'm not trying to convince you of my opinion, I'm saying that just as Malfurion was defeated with one ax, Sylvanas was defeated with one bullet.

[Grazrug]

Literally worst warchief of all time.

You misspelled best. Nobody can touch her. Because she is superior im every way.

[Mehrunes]

Literally worst warchief of all time.

She did more damage to the Alliance than Garrosh and got more new members into the Horde than Thrall. I'd say you're using the word "literally" wrongly.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

She did more damage to the Alliance than Garrosh and got more new members into the Horde than Thrall. I'd say you're using the word "literally" wrongly.

Damn, and here I thought the Horde was about more than just "doing damage to the Alliance"

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You misspelled best. Nobody can touch her. Because she is superior im every way.

Nawwwww son.

[Grazrug]

Damn, and here I thought the Horde was about more than just "doing damage to the Alliance"

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Nawwwww son.

Damage to the alliance is what we do best. Just wait and see.

[Feanoro]

Damn, and here I thought the Horde was about more than just "doing damage to the Alliance"

And the same Hordies who think the Horde's only purpose or narrative should be "RAWR MASSACRE PUNY ALLIANCE" are always shocked when the Horde is villain batted out of gameplay constraints.

[Talrath]

I'm not trying to convince you of my opinion, I'm saying that just as Malfurion was defeated with one ax, Sylvanas was defeated with one bullet.

It might not be your intention but any reader would think otherwise, thats why choosing your words is really important cuz we cant really see the tone in texts.

About the topic, I understand its a nice having a dialogue about powerlevels but only when they are consistent. Its nearly impossible to figure it out now since the clusterdump of the story we got and as im writing im really thinking how to put those 2 characters on the same level without the danuser love for sylvanis plotarmour.

Sylvanis a ranger general (and for a long time at that) that was able to outsmart a large undead army. She slowed down the invasion of the scourge considerably. Even if the traitor hadnt disrupted the shield, Its most likely that the scourge would have destroyed silvermoon city anyway. She is a good leutenant on the field but other than that she couldnt look what to do ahead. After becoming a banshee and uniting the forsaken, all we know is she was experimenting on life beings and doing other shadowy deals, most likely bolstering her forces against arthas. At wrathgate she had let the insurrections take control of the undercity, why? Most likely she knew that there were traitors but didnt know the true extend of it, meaning she isnt all knowing and isnt a 3d chess master. She cant control her negative emotions (hatred), which is seen when she goes after arthas thinking she can beat him only to run away like a chicken. Right now she has her entire soul back so we have to see what her cpabilities are when shes recovered. Plunged herself from the citadel cuz her lifes purpose is gone, entails weak mind. In Cataclysme she had the chance to kill Genn Graymane but just left, why? I really dont know. Then she took in Godfrey which she fully knows that he hated abominitations and took a shotgun to her head. Again, implying that she makes alot of mistakes when it concerns other than fighting the enemy. In MoP you can again see how instable she is by going nuts cuz her sister doesnt want to join her. In legion she fights Genn Graymane and has problems when fighting him, even though she should have some more power from the jailor. In BFA she has trouble in trying to invade the elven lands, even though the entire might of the horde is at her disposal. Was losing the fight against Malfurion and let him leave, why? I dont know. She then, based on her emotion, burned the tree. Undercity was lost due her incompetence and at the fight with saurfang she lost her composure. Do have to keep in mind that saurfangs blowe was easily blocked by sylvanis so she defnitely became stronger during BFA.

Malfurion, known as calm and smart. Well his story is alot longer so wont be going to deep. Essentially hes like a demi god, did soo many crazy things during the war of ancients when he was just a student druid, his mastery over druidisme was great and he was a great commander. He was able to zoom out and see what the next step would be. Now as a experienced druid we havent really seen many things, he aided in the destruction of Ragnaros and thats it. He has been benched for a long time. In BFA he got some spotlights, was able to fully utelize the remnants of the elves defence force against the full force of the horde. Other than that, they havent really shown what a demi god like him can do. I remember one part in the BFA book where he easily wins against a blood elf and first tries to talk until sylvanis comes. Blood elf tries to grab a knif and malfurion twists his neck i believe.

Now, Sylvanis before she went no kneeling skreee part. Malfurion would win, doesnt matter if it isnt fully jungle type forest, if the zone isnt fucked like fell or scourge then he can win. Were they in the maw, then sylvanis would win easy. Malfurion powers depend greately on the zone but he is smart aswell like a commander whereas Sylvanis is like a leutenant. Difference is that the commander chooses where he fights and leads the opponent that way, the leutenant just fights. Yes yes yes, the elves were ''tricked'' in taking 80% of their forces to silithus on a rumor, that is something i cant aknowledge as canon. Ive based most of Malfurion abilities on Pre WoW before he got benched and took Sylvanis abilities at her peak. So took both of them during their prime (for malfurion i didnt have any choice, getting benched sucks).

For leading army, Malfurion would win aswell, had a small army to fight the full horde army.

[darkoms]

It might not be your intention but any reader would think otherwise, thats why choosing your words is really important cuz we cant really see the tone in texts.

About the topic, I understand its a nice having a dialogue about powerlevels but only when they are consistent. Its nearly impossible to figure it out now since the clusterdump of the story we got and as im writing im really thinking how to put those 2 characters on the same level without the danuser love for sylvanis plotarmour.

Sylvanis a ranger general (and for a long time at that) that was able to outsmart a large undead army. She slowed down the invasion of the scourge considerably. Even if the traitor hadnt disrupted the shield, Its most likely that the scourge would have destroyed silvermoon city anyway. She is a good leutenant on the field but other than that she couldnt look what to do ahead. After becoming a banshee and uniting the forsaken, all we know is she was experimenting on life beings and doing other shadowy deals, most likely bolstering her forces against arthas. At wrathgate she had let the insurrections take control of the undercity, why? Most likely she knew that there were traitors but didnt know the true extend of it, meaning she isnt all knowing and isnt a 3d chess master. She cant control her negative emotions (hatred), which is seen when she goes after arthas thinking she can beat him only to run away like a chicken. Right now she has her entire soul back so we have to see what her cpabilities are when shes recovered. Plunged herself from the citadel cuz her lifes purpose is gone, entails weak mind. In Cataclysme she had the chance to kill Genn Graymane but just left, why? I really dont know. Then she took in Godfrey which she fully knows that he hated abominitations and took a shotgun to her head. Again, implying that she makes alot of mistakes when it concerns other than fighting the enemy. In MoP you can again see how instable she is by going nuts cuz her sister doesnt want to join her. In legion she fights Genn Graymane and has problems when fighting him, even though she should have some more power from the jailor. In BFA she has trouble in trying to invade the elven lands, even though the entire might of the horde is at her disposal. Was losing the fight against Malfurion and let him leave, why? I dont know. She then, based on her emotion, burned the tree. Undercity was lost due her incompetence and at the fight with saurfang she lost her composure. Do have to keep in mind that saurfangs blowe was easily blocked by sylvanis so she defnitely became stronger during BFA.

Malfurion, known as calm and smart. Well his story is alot longer so wont be going to deep. Essentially hes like a demi god, did soo many crazy things during the war of ancients when he was just a student druid, his mastery over druidisme was great and he was a great commander. He was able to zoom out and see what the next step would be. Now as a experienced druid we havent really seen many things, he aided in the destruction of Ragnaros and thats it. He has been benched for a long time. In BFA he got some spotlights, was able to fully utelize the remnants of the elves defence force against the full force of the horde. Other than that, they havent really shown what a demi god like him can do. I remember one part in the BFA book where he easily wins against a blood elf and first tries to talk until sylvanis comes. Blood elf tries to grab a knif and malfurion twists his neck i believe.

Now, Sylvanis before she went no kneeling skreee part. Malfurion would win, doesnt matter if it isnt fully jungle type forest, if the zone isnt fucked like fell or scourge then he can win. Were they in the maw, then sylvanis would win easy. Malfurion powers depend greately on the zone but he is smart aswell like a commander whereas Sylvanis is like a leutenant. Difference is that the commander chooses where he fights and leads the opponent that way, the leutenant just fights. Yes yes yes, the elves were ''tricked'' in taking 80% of their forces to silithus on a rumor, that is something i cant aknowledge as canon. Ive based most of Malfurion abilities on Pre WoW before he got benched and took Sylvanis abilities at her peak. So took both of them during their prime (for malfurion i didnt have any choice, getting benched sucks).

For leading army, Malfurion would win aswell, had a small army to fight the full horde army.

The problem is that I'm not comparing Sylvanas and the game Malfurion, but Sylvanas and Malfurion from Knaak's books. Knaak makes his main characters insanely strong, Malfurion single-handedly forced the army of demons to retreat. Therefore, I compare them, because on the one hand we have Danuser's Sylvanus, and on the other Knaak's Malfurion. 2 mary sue


I also don't understand why people keep saying this nonsense about Malfurion being addicted to drugs. In the books, he drew strength from the ground tainted by the Legion, and although it was difficult at first, over time he learned. And that was before he learned to draw energy directly from the Emerald Dream.

[Aucald]

Wait. My position has not changed since my first answer. You say that Sylvanas can take a bullet in the head because she survived the raid. I tell you that Thrall in the game has withstood the beams of fel from the ships of the Legion. You say that he could do it because of his connection with nature. I tell you that Cenarius is connected with nature and could not withstand the blow of the ax. You say that someone connected with nature could do this if they used a stone skin spell or healing or something. Now you want to say that I am accusing you of something? Thrall withstood the fel beams just like that. He had no stone armor or spiritual shield. This is why I say that such game moments (especially raid battles) are not very reliable in terms of the shown character strength, if they do not reflect some specific lore situation. I'm telling you that Cenarius and Malfurion will not survive an ax blow to the head. Just the very fact of it. Not that Cenarius cannot use stoneskin and survive, but that if he does nothing, he will not survive the blow. So is Sylvanas. Sylvanas CAN use incorporeal or some other death magic and much more to survive or dodge. But if you shoot her right in the head, she won't survive. In your comment, you said as if the current Sylvanas can take a bullet in the head and she won't care because she faced much more damage in the raid. You also said that Malfurion was easily defeated with an ax, but now you say that someone connected with Life can withstand the blow of the ax if they use any spell. So I'm not sure that we are on the same wavelength because I can't keep up with you.

Your position, such that you have one, has been all over the place - cherry-picking context and moving goalposts since practically the first exchange. Yes, I said the empowered Sylvanas in the SoD raid could likely take a bullet to the head, it would probably glance off her fortified body at that point. That would be true regardless of the raid encounter, though; but it's a lore-based fact that she's been granted power and enhanced durability by the Jailer. I'm saying that you're switching contexts are you please, and then seemingly getting aggravated when I (or anyone else) offers examples from the very same context you opened up.

As for Cenarius or Malfurion surviving an ax blow to the head, agree to disagree. I'm saying that if they saw it coming and were prepped for it, it's entirely possible for them to do any number of things to soak and/or avoid it. If they were surprised by it, like Malfurion was when Saurfang got the drop on him, then they're probably grievously injured or dead as a result. You are correct that if they just stood there, bone-dead stupidly, they would also die - but I highly doubt either of them would do such a thing willingly, only if they were surprised.

Malfurion was surprised by a sneak attack and nearly died. Malfurion might however be able to take on an attack like that if he were ready for it, though. Same for Sylvanas. Although in her empowered state (e.g. as she was during Shadowlands until the end of SoD), even a sneak attack like a gunshot to the head might not have been sufficient to kill her.

[darkoms]

Your position, such that you have one, has been all over the place - cherry-picking context and moving goalposts since practically the first exchange. Yes, I said the empowered Sylvanas in the SoD raid could likely take a bullet to the head, it would probably glance off her fortified body at that point. That would be true regardless of the raid encounter, though; but it's a lore-based fact that she's been granted power and enhanced durability by the Jailer. I'm saying that you're switching contexts are you please, and then seemingly getting aggravated when I (or anyone else) offers examples from the very same context you opened up.

As for Cenarius or Malfurion surviving an ax blow to the head, agree to disagree. I'm saying that if they saw it coming and were prepped for it, it's entirely possible for them to do any number of things to soak and/or avoid it. If they were surprised by it, like Malfurion was when Saurfang got the drop on him, then they're probably grievously injured or dead as a result. You are correct that if they just stood there, bone-dead stupidly, they would also die - but I highly doubt either of them would do such a thing willingly, only if they were surprised.

Malfurion was surprised by a sneak attack and nearly died. Malfurion might however be able to take on an attack like that if he were ready for it, though. Same for Sylvanas. Although in her empowered state (e.g. as she was during Shadowlands until the end of SoD), even a sneak attack like a gunshot to the head might not have been sufficient to kill her.

Where does it say that the Jailer has strengthened her durablity??? In the Edge of Night, she mentions that her undead body is indestructible (and that was before her suicide) and that falling from a great height will not kill her so she must jump on the saronite thorns (she also thinks these thorns will destroy her soul, which turned out to be untrue). However, in War Crimes (AFTER meeting the Jailer) during a dialogue with Bane, she thinks that Bane could easily break her arms if he wanted to. She was also shot in the head in Cataclysm after meeting the Jailer. We see that it is getting stronger, but nothing indicates that its strength has increased.
So can you please give me a source where it is stated that during the SL she became invulnerable ??? I mean, Saurfang was able to scratch her (not because she's invulnerable, but because he couldn't hit her properly).

Once again, we are not arguing that the character can use magic to defend herself, because Sylvanas, too, might not have been shot in the head if she had used magic. We're talking about whether a character can simply tank such a hit or shot. We saw how Thrall was able to tank the fel beams in the game, this does not mean that in the lore he can survive the blow to the head with an ax.

[sighy]

Where does it say that the Jailer has strengthened her durablity??? In the Edge of Night, she mentions that her undead body is indestructible (and that was before her suicide) and that falling from a great height will not kill her so she must jump on the saronite thorns (she also thinks these thorns will destroy her soul, which turned out to be untrue). However, in War Crimes (AFTER meeting the Jailer) during a dialogue with Bane, she thinks that Bane could easily break her arms if he wanted to. She was also shot in the head in Cataclysm after meeting the Jailer. We see that it is getting stronger, but nothing indicates that its strength has increased.
So can you please give me a source where it is stated that during the SL she became invulnerable ??? I mean, Saurfang was able to scratch her (not because she's invulnerable, but because he couldn't hit her properly).

Once again, we are not arguing that the character can use magic to defend herself, because Sylvanas, too, might not have been shot in the head if she had used magic. We're talking about whether a character can simply tank such a hit or shot. We saw how Thrall was able to tank the fel beams in the game, this does not mean that in the lore he can survive the blow to the head with an ax.

I don't see how that figures into a versus discussion since generally speaking it would happen in a neutral environment, under neutral conditions. (No ambush, no specific prep)

Her only real resilience feat is facetanking Night Warrior Tyrande's suicide tackle, without even a scratch and then get choked by Tyrande, which did nothing for obvious reasons(she doesn't need to breathe) and presumably could bail at any moment she wanted to by turning into a cloud.

[darkoms]

I don't see how that figures into a versus discussion since generally speaking it would happen in a neutral environment, under neutral conditions. (No ambush, no specific prep)

Her only real resilience feat is facetanking Night Warrior Tyrande's suicide tackle, without even a scratch and then get choked by Tyrande, which did nothing for obvious reasons(she doesn't need to breathe) and presumably could bail at any moment she wanted to by turning into a cloud.

I don't know, he just said that Malfurion was defeated with one ax, and I say that Sylvanas was defeated with one bullet.


Honestly, I don't remember a dumber battle in Warcraft than Tyrande and Sylvanas duel

[Aucald]

Where does it say that the Jailer has strengthened her durablity??? In the Edge of Night, she mentions that her undead body is indestructible (and that was before her suicide) and that falling from a great height will not kill her so she must jump on the saronite thorns (she also thinks these thorns will destroy her soul, which turned out to be untrue). However, in War Crimes (AFTER meeting the Jailer) during a dialogue with Bane, she thinks that Bane could easily break her arms if he wanted to. She was also shot in the head in Cataclysm after meeting the Jailer. We see that it is getting stronger, but nothing indicates that its strength has increased. So can you please give me a source where it is stated that during the SL she became invulnerable ??? I mean, Saurfang was able to scratch her (not because she's invulnerable, but because he couldn't hit her properly).

Indestructible in the sense that the fall would not kill her, not that it wouldn't harm her - she meant to extinguish herself, so simply getting her body broken to pieces on the ramparts below wouldn't really be aiding in that goal, hence the use of the saronite spikes to ensure she dies (and she does die, she's just resurrected by the Val'kyr). As for her increased durability, take a look at the Mak'gora between her and Saurfang again. The strike she received from Shala'mayne should've done a *lot* more than give her a simple scratch - he was close enough, and the blow severe enough, to ordinarily sunder flesh and bone, leaving her with her brains leaking out of the rent to her face. But she's merely scratched by it, and her reaction to even that indicates that any injury to her person was completely unexpected. Add in during her duel with Bolvar she's struck with a flung portion of Icecrown Citadel and simply recoalesces unharmed by it completely.

Once again, we are not arguing that the character can use magic to defend herself, because Sylvanas, too, might not have been shot in the head if she had used magic. We're talking about whether a character can simply tank such a hit or shot. We saw how Thrall was able to tank the fel beams in the game, this does not mean that in the lore he can survive the blow to the head with an ax.

The Fel lasers from the Legion dreadnoughts weren't immediately lethal, either - as a PC you can soak them for a time, even more so if you're using protective abilities. Given the relative power of Thrall, him briefly tanking three of them isn't beyond the pale. I agree that an unprotected blow to the head with the ax would probably take him out - I agreed with that several times already. Although empowered Sylvanas and Thrall, just like empowered Sylvanas vs. Saurfang or Bolvar, really isn't a contest given that only one of the people in those duels (Sylvanas) is being fed power by a veritable deity. It's also telling that in her duel with an equally empowered being, namely Tyrande, Sylvanas tries to flee rather than fight until she sees Tyrande losing said divine power.

[sighy]

It's also telling that in her duel with an equally empowered being, namely Tyrande, Sylvanas tries to flee rather than fight until she sees Tyrande losing said divine power.

I would argue Sylvanas didn't have any interest or motivation to really fight Tyrande, while Nathanos news did impact her, as Tyrande stated that's a thing between her and the Jailer. Her objective in Ardenweald was to distract until Anduin gets the sigil and bails, by which point she attempts to leave as well.

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Honestly, I don't remember a dumber battle in Warcraft than Tyrande and Sylvanas duel

Sylvanas vs Saurfang, when you remember that she could just shout him into a broken pile of gore and win instantly according to her feats from Arthas novel, which have been reiterated by Anduin's statement, in BtS. (Blizz has never been good at depicting fights)

[Aucald]

I would argue Sylvanas didn't have any interest or motivation to really fight Tyrande, while Nathanos news did impact her, as Tyrande stated that's a thing between her and the Jailer. Her objective in Ardenweald was to distract until Anduin gets the sigil and bails, by which point she attempts to leave as well.

I would agree, save that Sylvanas' MO since BfA has basically been chewing the scenery and low-key demonstrating how untouchable she currently seems to any and all. Sylvanas hangs around playing the PC and the Night Fae forces for some time Anduin had acquired the Sigil - it's not until Tyrande arrives that she finally decides she needs to leave. Either way, it's definitely a marked deviation from her previous behavior.