Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[DKjaigen]

This is an internet forum dude, not a court of law.

indeed im glad you noticed. that means you conclusions means nothing to me.

[Egomaniac]

Strange pivot there from our Rittenhouse defender. Accuses Edge of being a mind reader as a bad thing but somehow thinks that Rittenhouse's mind reading abilities to justify shooting Rosenbaum is a good thing. Sometimes the jokes just write themselves...

Telepathy of any kind should not be allowed as evidence in a court of law. *





*Unless it helps my clients defense.

[PhaelixWW]

No. I doubt they can find anything that would make this a first degree murder

What do you mean "find anything"?

The evidence is all there. They chased him down, harassed him, then shot and killed him.

You don't really understand the law, do you?

[Edge-]

No. I doubt they can find anything that would make this a first degree murder

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/u...ndictment.html

On Wednesday, the office of District Attorney Joyette M. Holmes of Cobb County announced that a grand jury in Glynn County had returned an indictment with nine counts against each of the three defendants: malice murder, four counts of felony murder, two counts of aggravated assault, false imprisonment and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment.

Which is fine, since nobody is really arguing it was first degree murder and they're not charged with first degree murder. I believe "malice murder" is the state equivalent of second degree murder, which absolutely does fit though.

[PhaelixWW]

indeed im glad you noticed. that means you conclusions means nothing to me.

Clearly they mean something to you, otherwise you wouldn't be here attempting (unsuccessfully) to fight those conclusions.

[DKjaigen]

I've travelled internationally a fair bit. I've also worked internationally with people from a couple dozen different countries, on all six continents that matter (as Antarctica, y'know, no native population). So spare me your attempts at normalizing brutal fascism.

No you dont. Everything you say or do screams to me that you never left the shores of the America. What you say is fascist is pretty normal in the rest of the world. Yes Rosenbaum did serve his time but in other countries he would not live long beyond the borders of western Europe.

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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/u...ndictment.html



Which is fine, since nobody is really arguing it was first degree murder and they're not charged with first degree murder. I believe "malice murder" is the state equivalent of second degree murder, which absolutely does fit though.

I dont disagree.

[Endus]

indeed im glad you noticed. that means you conclusions means nothing to me.

Fun fact; this is a public forum, and we have an audience.

Nobody here is trying to convince you. We're all speaking to the audience, so they can see how wrong you are.

I really don't know why you folks think this shit is about convincing you of anything. That's just a whopping unwarranted sense of entitlement and importance.

[Edge-]

What you say is fascist is pretty normal in the rest of the world.

It really, really isn't.

Yes Rosenbaum did serve his time but in other countries he would not live long beyond the borders of western Europe.

So what countries are we talking about? Places where extrajudicial killings are routine because the state has no monopoly on the use of force?

[DKjaigen]

What do you mean "find anything"?

The evidence is all there. They chased him down, harassed him, then shot and killed him.

You don't really understand the law, do you?

not even the prosecutor is going for first degree murder.

[Endus]

No you dont. Everything you say or do screams to me that you never left the shores of the America. What you say is fascist is pretty normal in the rest of the world. Yes Rosenbaum did serve his time but in other countries he would not live long beyond the borders of western Europe.

Like I care what you think about me.

I've spent a fair bit of time in the UK with family (second cousins and the like). I've backpacked across the Mediterranean, from London to Santorini. I've traveled through a lot of the east coast of the USA (driving down through Virginia the last time). I don't have to prove anything to you.

You're pushing authoritarian fascist nonsense, and that's not how first world countries' legal systems work. Pointing to second-world developing nations doesn't help your case against that.

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not even the prosecutor is going for first degree murder.

Edit: Oh, it appears you meant the Arbery case. Let me retract my prior post in this place, and instead post this;

You're lying about this, because they're facing one count of malice murder and four counts of felony murder. "Malice murder" is the local equivalent of "first-degree", in legal terms.

[PhaelixWW]

not even the prosecutor is going for first degree murder.

Hardly means that it wasn't or that they don't think that it was. It just indicates that they're not as confident about convincing a 12-member jury of it.

But there's absolutely evidence of premeditation. They would certainly have a case if they chose to.

[Egomaniac]

not even the prosecutor is going for first degree murder.

They are going for felony murder though...which amounts to the same thing.

[Edge-]

Count 4 is "First degree intentional homicide".

Are you just completely unaware of the fundamental basics of the trial, or did you think lying about something this basic would actually fly?

Ah, I hadn't looked up "Felony Murder" which is the GA equivalent of first degree/murder 1. In that case, nevermind, they are charging them with that.

I imagine that'll be tougher to prove, but far from impossible given the evidence I've seen.

[DKjaigen]

It really, really isn't.



So what countries are we talking about? Places where extrajudicial killings are routine because the state has no monopoly on the use of force?

Go past the turkish border. And you will see the rest of the world is not such a fun place

[Endus]

They are going for felony murder though...which amounts to the same thing.

There's a count of malice murder in there too, and that's when the murder is done "with malice aforethought, either express or implied". Which is what first-degree murder is, in other jurisdictions. It's just a technical labelling difference between jurisdictions.

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Ah, I hadn't looked up "Felony Murder" which is the GA equivalent of first degree/murder 1. In that case, nevermind, they are charging them with that.

I imagine that'll be tougher to prove, but far from impossible given the evidence I've seen.

I'll note I assumed there that he was talking about the Rittenhouse case (since we've got two going and on double-checking I had to go back like 10 posts in the chain to find out which).

My edit to correct that doesn't help, since "malice murder" and "felony murder" are both in the GA charges. So it's a lie regardless.

[Edge-]

Go past the turkish border. And you will see the rest of the world is not such a fun place

Cool, why are we comparing a developed nation that supposedly is not a failed state and retains the monopoly on the use of force, to development nations that do not have a monopoly on the use of force?

I mean, if that's your preferred system of governance, move there and enjoy routine extrajudicial killings. Does it matter if the person is guilty? No, not at all. Just that vigilante's get their rocks off.

[Egomaniac]

Go past the turkish border. And you will see the rest of the world is not such a fun place

Be specific. Which countries specifically allow extrajudicial murder?

[PhaelixWW]

They are going for felony murder though...which amounts to the same thing.

Actually, no, Endus is right. They're charged with malice murder, which is Georgia's equivalent to first-degree murder. Felony murder differs only in the definition, but not the penalty, and second-degree murder is a step below both.

EXPLAINER: What Are the Charges in Ahmaud Arbery's Killing?

A nine-count indictment charges all three with one count of malice murder, four counts of felony murder, two counts of aggravated assault, one count of false imprisonment and one count of criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALICE MURDER AND FELONY MURDER?
Unlike many states, Georgia doesn't have degrees of murder, but instead has malice murder and felony murder. Neither requires prosecutors to prove an intent to kill.

Malice murder is when a person “unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.” No evidence of premeditation is required.

Express malice involves an intent to kill. Implied malice is when the there is “no considerable provocation” and the circumstances of the killing “show an abandoned and malignant heart,” which essentially means the person has acted with extreme recklessness even if there was no intent to kill, said Georgia State University law professor Russell Covey.

Felony murder applies when someone who has no plans to kill intentionally commits another felony and a person dies as a result. The person must be convicted of the underlying felony to be found guilty of felony murder.

WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES FOR MALICE AND FELONY MURDER?

“The sentence for felony murder and malice murder is exactly the same,” University of Georgia law professor emeritus Ron Carlson said. “It is a distinction without a difference in terms of punishment.”

The minimum penalty is life in prison. It is up to the judge to decide whether that comes with or without the possibility for parole. Even if the possibility of parole is granted, a person convicted of murder must serve 30 years before becoming eligible to seek for parole.

[Endus]

Hardly means that it wasn't or that they don't think that it was. It just indicates that they're not as confident about convincing a 12-member jury of it.

But there's absolutely evidence of premeditation. They would certainly have a case if they chose to.

Some people weirdly don't understand what "intent" and "premeditation" mean.

"Intent" means you meant to do the thing. You pointed the gun, and pulled the trigger, knowing what would happen when you did. That's "intent". In a shooting, if you're arguing it wasn't intentional, you're arguing the gun discharged by accident or you had good reason to think it wasn't loaded, or something. If you point the gun and shoot knowing it's loaded, it was intentional.

And "premeditation" just means you had time to think about it and take action to make the shooting happen. It doesn't mean a big complicated plan that's been worked out for weeks. If my neighbour punches me, and I walk over to my porch and grab my shotgun and shoot him, that's premeditation; me walking to get the weapon is what "premeditation" means. Same applies if you're chasing anyone to kill them. "Premeditation" just means it didn't just happen in the course of escalating events, but that you made some decision to kill a person and took even a single step to make that happen.

[PhaelixWW]

Go past the turkish border. And you will see the rest of the world is not such a fun place

So... second-world. You'll pardon if we don't cater to the concepts of "justice" found in second- and third-world countries.