Cosmology from the Chronicles was not written by the Titans

[darkoms]

I just noticed that a lot of people say they believe the Chronicle cosmology because it's written by the Titans, as opposed to the broker's Grimur cosmology. Steve Danuser said the Chronicle is written from the perspective of the Titans and their servants. As stated in Grimur itself, the cosmology from the Chronicles was shown to the broker by one mortal scientist who spent a lot of time researching cosmological forces, and broker laughed at this map because the descendants of the Titan-forged value Order and the Titans too highly (which is strange because the main forces there Light and Shadow, not Order and Disoreder).


And here the question arises. Can we now assert that Light and Shadow are primordial forces, if this is only the opinion of one scientist? The broker considers Life and Death to be the main forces, but does not mention that they created the universe. Firim in his research mentions that it was possible that initially there were 2 forces, then there were 6, but do not mention that these are Light and Shadow.

[Aucald]

I don't think this question can be answered based on the knowledge we have, at least not in any objective sense. The Chronicle is written in-universe from the perspective of or representing the model used by the Titans and their servants, which emphasized Light and Shadow. The Grimoire of the Shadowlands of Beyond is written in-universe by a Broker (creatures who inhabit the realms of Death), and from their perspective emphasizes Life and Death. As it currently stands, the Brokers could be right, or the Titans could be right, or the answer could be something else entirely.

[darkoms]

I don't think this question can be answered based on the knowledge we have, at least not in any objective sense. The Chronicle is written in-universe from the perspective of or representing the model used by the Titans and their servants, which emphasized Light and Shadow. The Grimoire of the Shadowlands of Beyond is written in-universe by a Broker (creatures who inhabit the realms of Death), and from their perspective emphasizes Life and Death. As it currently stands, the Brokers could be right, or the Titans could be right, or the answer could be something else entirely.

Yes, but as I said, the Chronicle map was not written by the Titans or even their servants. This map was written by a mortal scientist, a descendant of the Titan-Forged.

[Aucald]

Yes, but as I said, the Chronicle map was not written by the Titans or even their servants. This map was written by a mortal scientist, a descendant of the Titan-Forged.

I'd have to crack open my copy of the Grimoire to be sure, but insofar as I recall the mortal scientist just had a copy of the cosmological chart from Chronicle Vol. 1 and wasn't specifically its author or creator.

[Villager720]

I'd have to crack open my copy of the Grimoire to be sure, but insofar as I recall the mortal scientist just had a copy of the cosmological chart from Chronicle Vol. 1 and wasn't specifically its author or creator.

Which raises a lot of questions in and of itself that don't have plausible answers. There's a lot of history in Chronicles that is clearly not available to denizens of Azeroth. Who wrote of Draenor's prehistory? How'd we get that? And if we don't actually have that info, how'd we get the cosmology chart from the books we don't have?

Honestly they should never have put in that self-aware winking taunt while invalidating what they told folks just 3 years prior. Just squirting on a dollop of crap mustard on the crap sandwich.

[darkoms]

I'd have to crack open my copy of the Grimoire to be sure, but insofar as I recall the mortal scientist just had a copy of the cosmological chart from Chronicle Vol. 1 and wasn't specifically its author or creator.

Ah, I checked it out. It says that this card was passed down by generations among the races forged by the titans, although it is also unclear if this scientist received the card by inheritance or created it and left it to his heirs.

[Aucald]

Which raises a lot of questions in and of itself that don't have plausible answers. There's a lot of history in Chronicles that is clearly not available to denizens of Azeroth. Who wrote of Draenor's prehistory? How'd we get that? And if we don't actually have that info, how'd we get the cosmology chart from the books we don't have?

Honestly they should never have put in that self-aware winking taunt while invalidating what they told folks just 3 years prior. Just squirting on a dollop of crap mustard on the crap sandwich.

If I recall correctly, the various acts of the Titans on their journeys were automatically recorded by the Discs of Norgannon, replicas of which seem to have been kept in sync across various Titanic installations in the known universe (such as those located on Azeroth). Not to mention that Aman'thul had limited omniscience due to his understanding of the physical universe's timeways, a more complete and far-reaching version of the power he bestowed upon Nozdormu and the Bronze Dragonflight. So you have two possibilities, that the Chronicle series is essentially the testament of Aman'thul himself, or it is taken from the Discs of Norgannon and recorded for posterity by parties unknown (perhaps Norgannon himself).

[Villager720]

If I recall correctly, the various acts of the Titans on their journeys were automatically recorded by the Discs of Norgannon, replicas of which seem to have been kept in sync across various Titanic installations in the known universe (such as those located on Azeroth). Not to mention that Aman'thul had limited omniscience due to his understanding of the physical universe's timeways, a more complete and far-reaching version of the power he bestowed upon Nozdormu and the Bronze Dragonflight. So you have two possibilities, that the Chronicle series is essentially the testament of Aman'thul himself, or it is taken from the Discs of Norgannon and recorded for posterity by parties unknown (perhaps Norgannon himself).

For Azeroth, sure I’ll let the Disks argument suffice. But the Titans were ‘dead’ by the time Draenor really got going after Grond and the Sporemound stuff. So who recorded all the Ogre and Arakkoa histories before they were even capable of doing so themselves? How do we have a full history of a planet after the titans went caput and seemingly left no real constructs behind to monitor?

[Progenitor Aquarius]

This can’t be answered, as the Broker perspective is different than Titan perspective. The chart is same in both cases, it’s just the angle of interpretation is different.

[TheFirstOnes]

It was written of the perspective, yes. Granted, we don't actually know its author, I don' think. The Broker one is imo far more limited and biased, as it's less of a "perspective" ordeal, and more-so a straight up biased take of the Brokers, and how they basically view the Cosmic Forces + Azeroth's take on its origins as: "DEATH AND LIFE ARE THE FUNDAMENTALS! FUCK THE TITANS, LIFE, AND ALL THAT SHIT! FIRST ONES ARE THE ACTUAL SHAPERS! NOT THE TITANS! BRUH EWWW", while the Chronicle is FAR less biased, but it's also arguably more limited, view wise at least. The Cosmic Chart simply shows what the PoV of the Titans was during the ordering of the Cosmos.

As for that Azerothian thing, I would like to assume that's both a bias thing also from their PoV too, as well as Blizzard mocking everyone for assuming the Titans were the end all-be all creators/makers of the Cosmos based off Wrath info, as well as the Chronicle and in game books talking about them "ordering" and "reshaping" worlds to a state of order, which was almost never the case, even in old lore. Granted, the Brokers are also biased asf, for confusing the Titan's meaning also, but in a negative/mocking light against the Lords of Order, but both are biased asf and the narrative was mostly focused on both sides not fully understanding what the chronicle chart genuinely represented.

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That's my PoV, at least. Both chart's are "right", but how the Azerothian represents Order's PoV of the Cosmos, and how the Broker pins Death in such a high and mighty light in the Chart whilist mocking the Order chart showscases CLEAR biases on both sides of the same coin.

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9.2 is like...our closest piece of GENUINE confirmation regarding the Cosmos' true origins.

[Feanoro]

Blizzard mocking everyone for assuming the Titans were the end all-be all creators/makers of the Cosmos based off Wrath info, as well as the Chronicle and in game books

Wow, what a great business strategy. Publish and sell a book as the authoritative, "end of discussion" canon, retcon it with an off the cuff remark (that effectively renders all previous marketing as false advertising), and then mock the customers for it.

Must be why subscriptions are booming, Blizzard is the main money maker in ABK, and there's absolutely no negativity towards them at all.

[TheFirstOnes]

I. Just. Explained. Why. The CHRONICLE. Wasn't. WRONG!!!

It's just people taking it the wrong way from 2 different perspectives.

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Why do you think my PFP is the Chronicle Chart? I'll literally defend this shit to the Shadowlands!

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I. Just. Explained. Why. The CHRONICLE. Wasn't. WRONG!!!

It's just people taking it the wrong way from 2 different perspectives.

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Why do you think my PFP is the Chronicle Chart? I'll literally defend this shit to the Shadowlands!

Totally agree with you. I just can’t stand some people. So irritating.

[shoc]

It's vague and confusing because the story quality is bad.

[Aucald]

For Azeroth, sure I’ll let the Disks argument suffice. But the Titans were ‘dead’ by the time Draenor really got going after Grond and the Sporemound stuff. So who recorded all the Ogre and Arakkoa histories before they were even capable of doing so themselves? How do we have a full history of a planet after the titans went caput and seemingly left no real constructs behind to monitor?

We find Titanic devices on Draenor that are quite similar to, and likely extensions of, the Discs of Norgannan when we explore Gorgrond during the events of WoD. It's highly probable this device served as Draenor's record of history in the same way as Azeroth's copy of the Discs serves for it. You'd probably find similar devices on every world ordered by the Titans during their heyday, automatically recording history and keeping records of the worlds that the Titans visited.

[TheFirstOnes]

For Azeroth, sure I’ll let the Disks argument suffice. But the Titans were ‘dead’ by the time Draenor really got going after Grond and the Sporemound stuff. So who recorded all the Ogre and Arakkoa histories before they were even capable of doing so themselves? How do we have a full history of a planet after the titans went caput and seemingly left no real constructs behind to monitor?

Just because it's from the PoV of the Titans, that in itself doesn't mean the TITANS THEMSELVES had documented the Chronicle, and the events of Draenor's evolution.

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We find Titanic devices on Draenor that are quite similar to, and likely extensions of, the Discs of Norgannan when we explore Gorgrond during the events of WoD. It's highly probable this device served as Draenor's record of history in the same way as Azeroth's copy of the Discs serves for it. You'd probably find similar devices on every world ordered by the Titans during their heyday, automatically recording history and keeping records of the worlds that the Titans visited.

Thank you. Not to mention Norgannon is the keeper of Secrets and Lore...so...these Discs MAY have been useful in the documentation of this. :/

[shoc]

The only true thing about Chronicles is that it was Metzen's vision of the Warcraft Universe. Whether any of it is still canon or not, even Blizzard doesn't seem to care. Trying to find an in-universe explanation to all these things is futile, but we can appreciate what Metzen believed to be the limits of the Warcraft cosmos.