Mage Tower is a great example…

[Log Cabin]

I managed 2 of the three challenges of my class. For back round I have been a CE raider for over a decade roughly around world 300 with spikes up and down that over the years and a middling pvp rating of 2k depending on expansion. I completed 36/36 legion mage tower with several classes being done during its launch patch.

I don't know how many of these fights are being done in their intended way. I did the Twins as MM and while caught off guard by the enrage being a instant wipe and the hands dying extremely easy it became clear they changed the encounter to be about kiting. Fair enough I managed to kill rast while his bother was still alive.

BM I am willing to say that without a twink build can no be completed as currently intended. I managed to beat it after about three hours by using the WoD tanking trinket to endure the bosses dmg long enough to effectively kill the worm and feltotem at the same time. The worm has to die first as the enrage will simply kill you outright. The class isn't designed to sustain itself for the numbers the boss has and given that my kill clocked in at just over 13mins I can't say this was the intended method to do it.

The old mage tower was league easier even at launch the new one in many cases just feels untested. You can lose from doing everything correctly and I can't agree with that being good design.

If you completed the old mage tower in legion I would of been comfortable trailing you half way through mythic on that alone (during launch patch). If you managed to clear all challenges without twink gear I would be comfortable trialing you in mythic slyvannas.

[Swnem]

Never heard that one, but mage tower atm is harder than anything you have to do on mythic.

[Drusin]

I'm not sure how the mage tower is an example of that

[Unlimited Power]

I'm just wondering how a spec like fire mage would even remotely manage to complete the Agatha challenge without access to any borrowed power.

They have no sustain whatsoever outside of their meager barriers, and there's a shit ton of stuff you need to deal with in a timely manner before damage ramps too much to deal with.

I only managed to complete it on on my Unholy DK because of Dark Succor Death Strikes keeping me alive from the continuously spawning imps.

Even back in Legion it's a challenge that would be rather difficult without any sustain legendaries like the blink barrior chest or the shield neck.

[Elbob]

Never heard that one, but mage tower atm is harder than anything you have to do on mythic.

Citation needed big time

[Log Cabin]

Citation needed big time

It isn't that far off if you don't twink on a lot of classes. Twinking more or less adds an extra 4 armor slots to it and kind of makes it a joke. Most classes add something close to 14 gems

[Elbob]

It isn't that far off if you don't twink on a lot of classes. Twinking more or less adds an extra 4 armor slots to it and kind of makes it a joke. Most classes add something close to 14 gems

tanking mythic sylv is far more sensitive then the tank challenge. Especially on prog

[Hctaz]

mage tower would have been much better if they'd taken the time to customise them based on the class/spec being played. didn't have to be major changes like having an entirely different scenario (that would have been great but not a realistic expectation), just tune the mobs according to the strengths and weaknesses of whichever specific class/spec it's aimed at
and if it's designed in such a way that players learn from what they've done wrong and improve, so much the better

but much like proving grounds they dropped the ball and some classes face rolled it while others really struggled and it had little to do with the players skill and much more to do with the lack of tuning
they did it a little better in torghast since there are actually some anima powers customised for different specs, I haven't tried it as many class/specs yet but so far the tuning seems good. if only it wasn't so repetitive, tedious and lacking in rewards...

I don't know if they aren't tuned this way now, but they were absolutely tuned this way in Legion. If they adjusted them all to one version then that would explain why some mechanics feel over tuned. Stuff like Comet Storm on Xylem in Legion was tuned to do a lot more damage against Demon Hunters than Frost Death Knights for example since Demon Hunters can just double jump out of the ring and DKs have to actually kill the ice shards.

The adds that spawned for Feral Druid in Legion had a lot less health than the ones for Unholy DK because Feral Druid sucked at AoE and cleave compared to Unholy.

So basically they better have kept the Legion spec tuning in place or else they failed.

[Log Cabin]

tanking mythic sylv is far more sensitive then the tank challenge. Especially on prog

Tank challenges beyond the dps check for towers are one of the easier ones.

[Very Tired]

Really not sure why everyone is blaming lack of their Legion artifacts and such. They were just a power boost and without them the content would obviously and easily be adjusted downwards to reflect that.

Mage Tower challenges are supposed to be difficult otherwise they never would have been so much fun and challenge how well you know how to take full advantage of your class's abilities. If you can complete them at launch, that's fine, not everyone is supposed to be able to. Gear up over time so it'll be easier, just like in Legion.

[Pozz]

I still think every single week should be a TW + 1 other event.

So for instance:

TBC TW + Pet Battle Week
Wrath TW + Battleground Week
Cata TW + World Quest Bonus Week
MoP TW + Shadowlands Dungeon Event
WoD TW + Arena Skirmish Event
Legion TW + Something New

Then next cycle could be:

TBC TW + Battleground Week
etc.

Why not just have it all the time and keep the schedule as is, just only with the weekly quest being the rotational part?

[Niwes]

…of why players who want a minimal/no gear gap between raid difficulties should never be listened to.

A lot of people like to think if things were more equalized they would do better, but that isn’t the case at all.

quickly putting in some old stuff, completely untested and unbalanced, just to keep up sub numbers a bit and show up something on some site frontpages and in launcher for marketing, is NOT a great base to support your argument.

if you could say the same, you said, about a X.1 or X.2 feature, fully tested and balanced, i would way more listen to what you said. some horrible, emergency released, rehashed TW feature is not a good comparison.

[Lucetia]

If you can complete them at launch, that's fine, not everyone is supposed to be able to. Gear up over time so it'll be easier, just like in Legion.

Except in Legion you would gear up by getting higher iLvLs, higher artifact weapons (ie more traits). Here you can't "gear up". The best you can do is "optimize" by getting more gems and stuff, but it isn't going to make drastic changes. People would be less upset if you could gear up and complete it over time, but that isn't the case here. You will have the problem where classes will scale worse being downgraded (legion you got around this with legendaries and more gear) and the lack of all the abilities.

At Mage Tower launch you had Artifact Traits + 2 Legendaries that you were able to use. Which would basically be about 10 or so iLvLs added on top of the legendaries most classes needed, which were usually survival based. Mage Tower was basically "Reduce amount of damage done because you are level 50". What they didn't tweak is to take into account all the class variations from now and then. Many classes back in Legion, even at launch, had to use a lot of survivability gear just to survive where they don't have that now.

If they took the time to go through and refine and retune everything to match accordingly you'd have a better argument. What they did instead of put a band-aid on it and said "It's good to go!"

Also seeing this:

Fixed an issue that allowed Survival Hunters to trivialize the Xylem encounter.

is kind of funny. Since now they care about it being trivialized but back in Legion they didn't care because so many classes had to use the trivializations to make it easier. This time around they tried to remove them all because heck trying to find a way to make it easier / better difficulty.

Though it looks like Blizzard is realizing how much more difficult it is and are "looking into it".

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for your ongoing feedback about the Mage Tower.

We are currently evaluating the data regarding Mage Tower success rates, and we have identified that some of the challenges for certain specializations are more difficult than intended. We will return once we have more information to provide on what changes we have planned to bring those specializations more in line with the rest.

[Very Tired]

Except in Legion you would gear up by getting higher iLvLs, higher artifact weapons (ie more traits). Here you can't "gear up". The best you can do is "optimize" by getting more gems and stuff, but it isn't going to make drastic changes. People would be less upset if you could gear up and complete it over time, but that isn't the case here. You will have the problem where classes will scale worse being downgraded (legion you got around this with legendaries and more gear) and the lack of all the abilities.

At Mage Tower launch you had Artifact Traits + 2 Legendaries that you were able to use. Which would basically be about 10 or so iLvLs added on top of the legendaries most classes needed, which were usually survival based. Mage Tower was basically "Reduce amount of damage done because you are level 50". What they didn't tweak is to take into account all the class variations from now and then. Many classes back in Legion, even at launch, had to use a lot of survivability gear just to survive where they don't have that now.

Except people are actually clearing the challenges, so its not like they are anywhere near impossible or undoable. Even if only the top 5% of WoW players can complete them, it's fine. Gives them something fun to do and something that's sincerely lacking in this game for years, a solo challenge.

And the next raid is coming to the PTR, and it'll likely be out soon. That's where you are intended to gear up to beat the Mage Tower challenge, just like in Legion. If you think it's overtuned now, then just outgear it.

[Lucetia]

Except people are actually clearing the challenges, so its not like they are anywhere near impossible or undoable. Even if only the top 5% of WoW players can complete them, it's fine. Gives them something fun to do and something that's sincerely lacking in this game for years, a solo challenge.

Just because some challenges are cleared doesn't mean they all are. Also, you don't know what they had to do in order to clear them. For instance, Survival Hunter apparently had something that made it easier than intended and they just fixed it. There are likely other things with classes at the moment that will get fixed.

Having solo challenges is fine, but they don't need to have rewards locked behind them. That just frustrates and irritates your player base more than anything and causes them to leave. If you put rewards on something you need to make it easy enough so at least 25% or so of your player base can realistically get it without having to do insane things to achieve it. For instance, you shouldn't realistically need a full set of socketed gear to do it which is what the ones clearing it are doing it.

And the next raid is coming to the PTR, and it'll likely be out soon. That's where you are intended to gear up to beat the Mage Tower challenge, just like in Legion. If you think it's overtuned now, then just outgear it.

I think you missed the point. The next raid will do absolutely nothing for mage tower. At best you'll get "set bonuses" that will likely be deactivated. You can not gear up at all for mage tower because your item level is set a specific level. Your ilvl can not go higher therefore you can not outgear it. The only way you can outgear it is by investing in pieces with heavy amount of sockets in it.

[Araya]

Mage Tower is a great example of why borrowed power can be really bad. Its also a great design of how they've completely redesigned multiple classes since Legion. I'd also like to say how freaking dumb it is that one of the challenges (Fel Totem) is completely centred around interrupts and all the classes that do it (to my knowledge) have a 15s or less interrupt EXCEPT Warlocks.

[Argorwal]

Mage Tower is a great example of why borrowed power can be really bad. Its also a great design of how they've completely redesigned multiple classes since Legion. I'd also like to say how freaking dumb it is that one of the challenges (Fel Totem) is completely centred around interrupts and all the classes that do it (to my knowledge) have a 15s or less interrupt EXCEPT Warlocks.

Disc doesn’t have a 15 second interrupt.

And warlocks have a pet with a 15 second interrupt.

So…kinda the opposite of what you said?

[kiramon]

tanking mythic sylv is far more sensitive then the tank challenge. Especially on prog

Lol……….. ..

[Very Tired]

Just because some challenges are cleared doesn't mean they all are. Also, you don't know what they had to do in order to clear them. For instance, Survival Hunter apparently had something that made it easier than intended and they just fixed it. There are likely other things with classes at the moment that will get fixed.

Having solo challenges is fine, but they don't need to have rewards locked behind them. That just frustrates and irritates your player base more than anything and causes them to leave. If you put rewards on something you need to make it easy enough so at least 25% or so of your player base can realistically get it without having to do insane things to achieve it. For instance, you shouldn't realistically need a full set of socketed gear to do it which is what the ones clearing it are doing it.



I think you missed the point. The next raid will do absolutely nothing for mage tower. At best you'll get "set bonuses" that will likely be deactivated. You can not gear up at all for mage tower because your item level is set a specific level. Your ilvl can not go higher therefore you can not outgear it. The only way you can outgear it is by investing in pieces with heavy amount of sockets in it.

Yeah that's my bad, forget how time walking works on gear. Regardless, from my perspective, the challenges are based a good deal around control and wise ability usage, that's going to do waaay more for you than some extra gems on your gear. The vast majority of deaths in mage towers aren't because they didn't min max their gear just right to sneak in that extra 1% to get them the kill.

And the rewards are just cosmetics, if I remember right. And that's completely fine. Gives them a sense of exclusivity and a rewards skilled players with bragging rights, while giving everyone else below something higher to aim for. Had Mage Towers been easy, it would be something we do once and forget about forever, with cosmetics that mean nothing because everyone has them.

[Lucetia]

Yeah that's my bad, forget how time walking works on gear.

Yeah, if it wasn't "timewalking" based then it'd be a different story as you could accumulate some gear to help out.

Regardless, from my perspective, the challenges are based a good deal around control and wise ability usage, that's going to do waaay more for you than some extra gems on your gear. The vast majority of deaths in mage towers aren't because they didn't min max their gear just right to sneak in that extra 1% to get them the kill.

Depends on the encounter. For some classes and their challenges that extra 1% would make the difference. It's also been suggest that if you get all sockets on your gear it essentially adds an extra 4-5 item levels to your gear which is huge considering that you should be a specific item level. Having the extra stats and min maxing is a lot more beneficial because it means you can push past certain phases and mechanics easier / quicker. So while making sure you control / avoid mechanics is the main point, being able to push dps more has a bigger impact than one might think when you are at specific item level.

And the rewards are just cosmetics, if I remember right. And that's completely fine. Gives them a sense of exclusivity and a rewards skilled players with bragging rights, while giving everyone else below something higher to aim for. Had Mage Towers been easy, it would be something we do once and forget about forever, with cosmetics that mean nothing because everyone has them.

Yeah, the rewards are cosmetic but so were artifact skins and you know how the community was behind it. The problem there is the "exclusivity". Exclusivity shouldn't be a thing in an online game because all it does is irritate the player base and pushes them away over time. Being able to say you completed should be all the bragging rights you need. If people need pixels to reaffirm that they are "amazing" then I don't know what to say. It's like how I've seen so many people get turned off and quit because they see others with a mount or transmog and they ask where they can farm it and they go "Can't get it. You had to be awesome and play during X - Y month and do Z activity to get it." People think exclusivity is a good thing, but it hurts things in the long run.

If they wanted to make the mage tower really challenging and then offer a FoS for those who finish it for bragging rights then sure because at that point it adds nothing to the game other than a link you can show off which would give you bragging rights. When you add gear, mount, toys, pets, titles then it becomes something that should be obtainable to everyone, not those who right now have to pull every ounce of cheese out of their character to achieve it. That's why we had the Legion mage towers slowly get easier over time. Except this Blizzard is like "Nope, no cheese at all for you" by fixing the affliction lock fear on twins, the bandages/buffs on Agatha, etc. It's like Blizzard is trying to go full on hardcore mode for it so people can brag, which is fine but if that is the case they shouldn't add items behind it that they know people would want.