The 2021 Formula 1 World Championship Thread

[Espo]

I don't think there is any chance of them walking it back and giving it to Lewis. It would require them to assume a situation that didn't take place, which was Mercedes arguing point (that they should have finished under the safety car because unlapping all cars would take too long). But the regulations do say that the race director has overriding authority to make a judgement call and that's what he did.

Even if they can legally prove Masi was at fault, they still can't resolve the result of the race where the competitors all did everything correct. It might result in Masi losing his job though, if anything to just calm the storm from the mob. I made the mistake of looking at twitter and people are vile and insane, there are a lot of people making this about skin colour and race, calling it a team boss conspiracy to protect Michael's record and all sorts of tin foil hat stuff.

I really didn't realise how many new fans had come into F1 and how mainstream popular it had become in the last year until I took a short delve into the twitter F1 fanbase and their response to this.

That's kind of my hope--that this incident turns into some sort of change to the way rules are described/enforced/etc, and ideally gets Masi out of his role or provided the appropriate support to ensure this (and everything else this season--Saudi, Turn 6 this weekend, etc) doesn't happen again with regards to inconsistent application of rules. You and I disagree a bit on the outcome of the race part (which is completely OK--not trying to start an argument), but I'm on the same page on the changing part. It wouldn't feel good to change the results, even if the FIA would admit fault (good luck on that one). They should keep it as is.

As much as I want to see this all play out, it's probably best if this gets the Ferrari engine treatment and is resolved behind closed doors. E.g. We see some changes occur and can sort of imply how they started.

Agree on the social media stuff. Between Latifi getting the Glock treatment and the tinfoil hat crowd out there--it's rough out there. Folks are crossing the line with some insults.

A good post on reddit (I know) referenced Hanlon's Razor to describe what Masi did: "Never attribute malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." And even if there was malice--people need to chill out on some of the nasty insults.

[Bigbazz]

A good post on reddit (I know) referenced Hanlon's Razor to describe what Masi did: "Never attribute malice to that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." And even if there was malice--people need to chill out on some of the nasty insults.

I don't think there was any malice, I think Masi was in over his head and fumbled. Which really is consistent with the rest of the season because it has been crazy, he doesn't have the same composure or clarity in the moment that Charlie Whiting had and it just shows. Masi I think was trying to do what was best for the sake of racing and settling matters on the track, but his method and whatever supporting channels he has is just not cut out to handle it.

We can agree or disagree on different matters about race incidents or whatever as we have but I think both drivers deserved this championship, I think Lewis deserved the win at Abu Dhabi, but I also understand from watching this sport for so long that sometimes the right strategy calls and a bit of luck can change everything and after an immense season I don't think Max deserves having that moment taken away, because he did earn it even if under less than ideal circumstances.

This is like 94 where Damon was robbed, I was only a young child then and my memories are vague but I think the clear difference here is that 94 was a situation between two drivers and 2021 was a situation centered around one race director not even on track... It's just crazy and not how any of us wanted this season to end, that said it was still one of the best seasons in a long time... Maybe 2012 was the last time it was this good, that ended under a safety car with only Jenson Button between Alonso and the championship.

[WowIsDead64]

Dunno. While Max has won, I still has bad taste in my mouth after this season. If they wanted to prevent Mercedes from making F1 too predictable via dominating in 8th championship in a row - they should have done it much earlier. For example via simply disqualifying Lewis on Silverstone. Yeah, giving victory to Max at very last moment - was great drama. But now it really feels like it's not real victory, that is bad for Max himself.

[Jessicka]

Dunno. While Max has won, I still has bad taste in my mouth after this season. If they wanted to prevent Mercedes from making F1 too predictable via dominating in 8th championship in a row - they should have done it much earlier. For example via simply disqualifying Lewis on Silverstone. Yeah, giving victory to Max at very last moment - was great drama. But now it really feels like it's not real victory, that is bad for Max himself.

They can’t “simply disqualify” anyone though, that’d only add to the inconsistency of application of the rules and penalties. When was the last time a driver was disqualified for a bad overtake? An appeal would be guaranteed to win.

I agree the penalties may need looking at, but the 10s he got, anywhere else in the field is brutal; even a 5s penalty can cost you 3-4 places easily. You can’t arbitrarily punish one driver 30s and another 5s for the same offence; though again, in future they could change that to a positional penalty instead as they do with qualifying. That just isn’t how the rules work right now though.

[WowIsDead64]

They can’t “simply disqualify” anyone though, that’d only add to the inconsistency of application of the rules and penalties. When was the last time a driver was disqualified for a bad overtake? An appeal would be guaranteed to win.

I agree the penalties may need looking at, but the 10s he got, anywhere else in the field is brutal; even a 5s penalty can cost you 3-4 places easily. You can’t arbitrarily punish one driver 30s and another 5s for the same offence; though again, in future they could change that to a positional penalty instead as they do with qualifying. That just isn’t how the rules work right now though.

Problem with penalties - is that they can be played around. I.e. when gain from violating rule >> loss due to penalty. Loss of all points for Max was much more critical for him, than 10s for Lewis. Same happened in Brazil. +5 places weren't enough to compensate +15HP on new engine. Of course one would say, that Red Bull needed to react. And that lack of reaction - was exact reason, why they "lost". But this is exact case of violation arms race, that should have been stopped by FIA. I.e. if one team have to adapt and perform some counter-violation, that is also violation, then something is critically wrong with current rules. That's why I think, that Max deserved to be champion. He didn't react and stayed within rules. For example they could perform something like Bottas move, sacrifice Serchio, it would have been really hard to prove, that it wouldn't have been mistake, but intentional move. Of course they needed to do it earlier, because Mercedes focused too much on "staying within rules" in last race, when it was favoring them.

[Jessicka]

Problem with penalties - is that they can be played around. I.e. when gain from violating rule >> loss due to penalty. Loss of all points for Max was much more critical for him, than 10s for Lewis. Same happened in Brazil. +5 places weren't enough to compensate +15HP on new engine. Of course one would say, that Red Bull needed to react. And that lack of reaction - was exact reason, why they "lost". But this is exact case of violation arms race, that should have been stopped by FIA. I.e. if one team have to adapt and perform some counter-violation, that is also violation, then something is critically wrong with current rules. That's why I think, that Max deserved to be champion. He didn't react and stayed within rules. For example they could perform something like Bottas move, sacrifice Serchio, it would have been really hard to prove, that it wouldn't have been mistake, but intentional move. Of course they needed to do it earlier, because Mercedes focused too much on "staying within rules" in last race, when it was favoring them.

This is my point, you give a 10s penalty to Max or Lewis, it means fuck all. You give the same penalty for the same violation to a Ferrari, you drop them from 4th to 9th. I definitely think the penalty system needs looking at. It’s just as it stands, you can’t apply it consistently and it be fair, because to be fair, you have to be consistent.

[MCMLXXXII]

This is my point, you give a 10s penalty to Max or Lewis, it means fuck all. You give the same penalty for the same violation to a Ferrari, you drop them from 4th to 9th. I definitely think the penalty system needs looking at. It’s just as it stands, you can’t apply it consistently and it be fair, because to be fair, you have to be consistent.

We can all just hope that the new cars can race closer together. That would mean 10 sec penalty for MB or RB would hurt them as much as it would a McLaren for instance.

[Espo]

https://www.fia.com/news/statement-f...-sport-council

The FIA's statement. I guess it's something; but I'm not sure how I feel about "The FIA will investigate the FIA and get back to you all shortly" as a response.

I wonder if some of this (obviously not all--the event speaks for itself) is the result of behind-the-scenes dialogues with Mercedes (and probably Red Bull, and others). It could be the tip of the iceberg in terms of changes/clarifications of rules. I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes drops the appeal at this point. I'm sure all parties (or mostly the FIA and F1) would love to solve this behind-closed-doors.

Or...the FIA is trying to get ahead of the shitstorm of an appeal.

[Bigbazz]

We can all just hope that the new cars can race closer together. That would mean 10 sec penalty for MB or RB would hurt them as much as it would a McLaren for instance.

I think racing closer together in dirty air would help a lot but the large performance gap between teams will likely remain, Mercedes had already moved most of their resources to development for next year by the start of the 21 season. Would be nice if more teams could compete, I'd like to see Ferrari or Alpine capable of fighting for the championship.

Imagine Alonso taking a 3rd at age 41.

[WowIsDead64]

Yeah, this season really looks like 94 one. Schumacher was winning, but FIA didn't want him to become champion in advance. And Williams also were against it and they had same power back in that time, as Mercedes now. So Schumacher was almost robbed this title and won at very last moment and exactly due to judges catering to him, while they could give him penalty for crashing with Hill again.

This really makes me think, that some seasons aren't real competition - they're directed. Some driver is supposed to obviously win, but FIA does everything to keep illusion of intrigue. At the end the one, who deserved it right from the beginning - wins anyway. But it just looks dirty. I don't understand, why it was needed. Because new driver winning championship after several seasons of boring Mercedes domination - was something new and fresh by itself.

What also bugs me - it that Lewis is...old. It really looks like he is losing his shape and it's time to think about retirement. That's why Russel is promoted to Mercedes. But it seems like Lewis still wants to keep winning no matter what. It's not bad by itself. Everybody wants to win and to break records. But... I don't know, how to say it better. We've got tired of him? Further domination would be boring?

[Jessicka]

Something that happens in every sport, you get someone special coming along and it’s amazing for a time, but people get bored of the lack of competition. They stop appreciating how good and how exceptional what they’re seeing is.

It’s worse in F1 because people want to say it’s all about the car, meanwhile their team mate clearly isn’t seeing so much of the benefit. Never mind where are Williams running the Mercedes engines.

Also I don’t see where you’re getting the idea Lewis is losing his shape, his last few drives have been pretty special, maybe he got complacent a bit, and a bit fed up earlier with the state of the car, but with Max pushing him I think he’s still got the drive.

[MCMLXXXII]

This seasons Lewis was the best I've seen of him in years. He was really pushed this season and delivered. This year he had real competition for the first time since 2016. Lewis still is and always will be the best driver of his generation.

- - - Updated - - -

Mercedes drops appeal, so now it's official.

[Northern Goblin]

Mercedes have dropped their appeal. There's several speculated reasons for it, but I think last night's FIA statement and vow for clarity on the matter and going forward is a big part.

[Xanjori]

I think its the right thing to do, like no matter what you argue its better that the title is decided on the track rather than changes coming in a few months later. Max won this title and thats the end of it, now we can just hope that next season we get a lot more competition at the front. I really hope Ferrari and Mclaren can start getting involved rather than it being a 2 car race.

[Jessicka]

Agree it’s the right call to drop it, nobody wants to see Max stripped of the title, they just want the system fixing so this kind of shit doesn’t happen. I think the statement last night was to try to get to that point, the FIA’s case would never stand up in CAS but the consequences would have sucked for everyone and just made Mercedes and Lewis look bad no matter how water tight the case.

Ultimately for Mercedes, the Constructors Championship is what mattered and they won that comfortably.

[WowIsDead64]

Something that happens in every sport, you get someone special coming along and it’s amazing for a time, but people get bored of the lack of competition. They stop appreciating how good and how exceptional what they’re seeing is.

It’s worse in F1 because people want to say it’s all about the car, meanwhile their team mate clearly isn’t seeing so much of the benefit. Never mind where are Williams running the Mercedes engines.

Also I don’t see where you’re getting the idea Lewis is losing his shape, his last few drives have been pretty special, maybe he got complacent a bit, and a bit fed up earlier with the state of the car, but with Max pushing him I think he’s still got the drive.

Sometimes teams have enough resources to focus on one driver only. For example car is built specifically for his driving style.

I agree about appeal. "Not real" title for Max may be bad, but stripping it would be even worse at this stage.

[MCMLXXXII]

Mercedes have dropped their appeal. There's several speculated reasons for it, but I think last night's FIA statement and vow for clarity on the matter and going forward is a big part.

Wonder what will be the outcome. I've been following F1 ever since I was a little boy (the Prost/Senna days) and I'm not that naive to think the FIA/FISA or FOM will change their ways.

- - - Updated - - -

https://fb.watch/9WUpLorhGh/

[Maell]

Wonder what will be the outcome. I've been following F1 ever since I was a little boy (the Prost/Senna days) and I'm not that naive to think the FIA/FISA or FOM will change their ways.

- - - Updated - - -

https://fb.watch/9WUpLorhGh/

They will change a few rules here and there, but the status quo will remain mostly the same. Remember that F1 is mostly an entertainement business that abides by some rules from the FIA.

[Northern Goblin]

Sometimes teams have enough resources to focus on one driver only. For example car is built specifically for his driving style.

I agree about appeal. "Not real" title for Max may be bad, but stripping it would be even worse at this stage.

I mean the FIA in their statement last night called it tarnished. Which is more than I ever expected them to do in terms of admitting culpability.

Masi still has to go, and there needs to be a clear set of rules regarding the authority of the race conductor, as well as limits to what team bosses can and cannot do on the radio.

[Jessicka]

Sometimes teams have enough resources to focus on one driver only. For example car is built specifically for his driving style.

Not an issue either Mercedes or Red Bull have.

They will change a few rules here and there, but the status quo will remain mostly the same. Remember that F1 is mostly an entertainement business that abides by some rules from the FIA.

F1 had to sign agreements with the EU to basically assure competition and safety over entertainment. That almost certainly was part of the climb down statement last night, and the agreement today. Further argument could drag the EU competition commission in, and that helps nobody.