Remarks from former WoW designer gives insight on WoW's classes

[Al Gorefiend]

That would be the logical conclusion, since it is the final RTS hero alongside the Goblin Alchemist whose abilities have never appeared in the class lineup.

That doesn't mean it would appear in the next expansion though. Blizzard could hold off new class inclusion for multiple expansions like they did with Shadowlands. Interestingly, the lack of a new class in Shadowlands sort of reinforces the idea that Blizzard's class goals was to bring the RTS heroes into WoW as classes.

There really isnt an excuse I can make for Blizzard anymore for why the next expansion wouldn't have a new class. It's been 2 expansions since a new class. Maybe they want an even numbered 12 and not 13. The classes and specs today are absolute shells of what they once were so I'd wager balancing isn't even an issue either. Expac after expac they toy around with so many different abilities and procs that disappear never to be seen again so them running out of ideas isn't a case either.

The gnome tinker, goblin sapper, goblin alchemist, the ace, bombardier, essentially all those WC3/RTS classes can be rolled into Tinker. Blizzard actually put a ton of time and creativity fleshing out gnomes and goblins better than we ever saw in WoW where they became a more comic relief race (same with night elves at this point though hahaha)

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That would be the logical conclusion, since it is the final RTS hero alongside the Goblin Alchemist whose abilities have never appeared in the class lineup.

That doesn't mean it would appear in the next expansion though. Blizzard could hold off new class inclusion for multiple expansions like they did with Shadowlands. Interestingly, the lack of a new class in Shadowlands sort of reinforces the idea that Blizzard's class goals was to bring the RTS heroes into WoW as classes.

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I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;



https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Ace_Hunter_Kreen

That'd certainly hushen the dark ranger crowd, a demon hunter ranged spec.

[Wazooty]

Cosmetic class themes sounds like it would accomplish what they were after.

[Candlewick]

That would be the logical conclusion, since it is the final RTS hero alongside the Goblin Alchemist whose abilities have never appeared in the class lineup.

That doesn't mean it would appear in the next expansion though. Blizzard could hold off new class inclusion for multiple expansions like they did with Shadowlands. Interestingly, the lack of a new class in Shadowlands sort of reinforces the idea that Blizzard's class goals was to bring the RTS heroes into WoW as classes.

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I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;



https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Ace_Hunter_Kreen

It's more of a case of what does a range DH mechanically do a hunter, priest, mage,warlock, combat rogue, druid, shockadin, doesn't or hasn't done before.

You can rehash a little of course but there are very few niches to add that won't break wows balance... it gets worse when the class theme is almost entirely based around speed and hit and run as a theme.

[PrivateSmiley]

That would be the logical conclusion, since it is the final RTS hero alongside the Goblin Alchemist whose abilities have never appeared in the class lineup.

That doesn't mean it would appear in the next expansion though. Blizzard could hold off new class inclusion for multiple expansions like they did with Shadowlands. Interestingly, the lack of a new class in Shadowlands sort of reinforces the idea that Blizzard's class goals was to bring the RTS heroes into WoW as classes.

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I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;



https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Ace_Hunter_Kreen

because Every DH is totally saying: you know, we shoot lasers from our eyes, but fuck it, let's ditch that and use a bow and arrow!

[Al Gorefiend]

It's more of a case of what does a range DH mechanically do a hunter, priest, mage,warlock, combat rogue, druid, shockadin, doesn't or hasn't done before.

You can rehash a little of course but there are very few niches to add that won't break wows balance... it gets worse when the class theme is almost entirely based around speed and hit and run as a theme.

Well when you think about it like this, what does a shadow priest do that you can't justify a mage or warlock doing? As long as just a sliver of a theme or school of magic exists, they can build something of it.

[draugril]

I highly doubt the design philosophy of the original development team grants any insight into the modern team whatsoever.

[renatompassos]

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I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;



https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Ace_Hunter_Kreen

OMG! This would be so C O O L. This plus Survival’s revamp back to ranged would satiate people’s hunger and give Blizzard some more breathing time to introduce the new class whenever they want.

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Speaking of Hearthstone, they should definitely include their latest mercenaries in WoW. Many of which are pretty cool and bring some cool stories with them. Xyrella and the sisters Roame, for example.

[Teriz]

It's more of a case of what does a range DH mechanically do a hunter, priest, mage,warlock, combat rogue, druid, shockadin, doesn't or hasn't done before.

You can rehash a little of course but there are very few niches to add that won't break wows balance... it gets worse when the class theme is almost entirely based around speed and hit and run as a theme.

Well you could do a lot; You could have this spec utilize demonic pets, and have a mix of Hunter/Warlock pet mechanics; Like Demon Hunters could tame "wild demons" like Hunters tame beasts, yet DHs can manipulate their pets the way Warlocks do their minions.

In addition, the DH would be able to have a variety of demonic and shadow-based arrows and shots via their use of bows. It would be an interesting twist on the class, and something that quite a few players would be interested in. As @Al Gorefiend stated, it could also satisfy players yearning for a Dark Ranger class.

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I highly doubt the design philosophy of the original development team grants any insight into the modern team whatsoever.

Well if you look at class inclusions since WotLK, it matches the design philosophy stated by Jordan; i.e. bringing the RTS heroes into WoW as classes, and generalizing concepts that are too racially specific and can't be easily expanded to a variety of races.

[Jokubas]

Well when you think about it like this, what does a shadow priest do that you can't justify a mage or warlock doing? As long as just a sliver of a theme or school of magic exists, they can build something of it.

Exactly. Going back to the original interview, all classes/specs can ultimately be boiled down to just Tank, Damage, and Healer. Technically, anything past that has already been superfluous. You could just have Tank, Damage, and Healer be classes with abilities like "Defend", "Attack", and "Heal", but most people would find that boring without some more flair to it.

That's where the lore and flavor comes in.

I don't need a class to do something amazingly mechanically new to justify the class. For me the lore is enough to justify the class, even if that ultimately just ends up being a "skin." I agree that there isn't a lot of amazing new ground for a new class to cover mechanically, but to me that isn't the only reason to make or be excited for a class. I think the fact that Demon Hunter has gotten away with only two specs for so long is a testament to how the idea was more important than filling gaps in the game.

I agree though that at this point we should be getting more race-based stuff like Totems for Tauren or Blademaster swords for Orcs.

Yeah, there were weak spots in the idea and unfortunately little has been done to address those. If I recall, totems (the ability, not the weapon, obviously) were added to Shaman so they could also encompass the troll witch doctors, but I feel like druids ended up feeling more like a troll class (though of course that's partially to due with lore that was invented in the meantime).

Also, Warriors in general often just feel a little too archetypal, at least to me. Arms and Fury in particular are just small mechanical variants on the idea of "me smash things". It's hard to get any cultural feel from it no matter who you're playing. In the past I've suggested that Arms doubledown on a more Blademaster feel of more agililty and pseudo-stealth Wind Walk and perhaps a more "anime" feel while Fury embrace the enrage mechanic and pure brute force, but we don't have that.

There's also an issue with things like Priestesses of the Moon. It was a culture-defining idea that they were mounted archers in Warcraft III, but in World of Warcraft, a literal night elf priest is a cloth caster, and the iconic Priestess abilities somehow found their way into Druid, so it's basically impossible to play a proper Priestess of the Moon even though the pieces are there.

[Clone]

I think we all know what this thinly veiled thread is actually meant to be about....

You mean tinkerer class? I'm not sure but is that what the thread is getting at?

[MidnyteTV]

One of the worst things they did for WoW class development was "Concentrated Coolness" They essentially made it impossible to add classes like the Blademaster (baked into Warrior), Runemaster (Baked into DK), and Necromancer (baking into Lock/DK).

[Triceron]

I think your arguments here kind of explains why we've only had 3 new classes in almost 20 years of WoW. I wouldn't be surprised if we only get 1 more new class and that's it.

Sadly, we're closer in the territory of no new class and that's it. I don't have confidence with Ion at the helm. His interests seem to lie with maintaining the balance that exists and pushing forward with parasitic design features rather than fully explore a new class. By all means, Shadowlands should have introduced a new class. Any new class.

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One of the worst things they did for WoW class development was "Concentrated Coolness" They essentially made it impossible to add classes like the Blademaster (baked into Warrior), Runemaster (Baked into DK), and Necromancer (baking into Lock/DK).

I completely agree.

Specs are literally their own self-contained classes, but without the freedom and flavour of an entirely new class. It really makes things muddy when trying to get the feeling of playing something from the RTS series.

Like if you want to play a Dwarven Mountain King? Dual wielding is stuck with Fury, while Avatar and Stormbolt are on Arms. You don't have the benefit of playing as a proper WC3/HOTS style Mountain King. Same with most WC3 classes that don't have their own dedicated class, like Blademasters, Wardens, Shadow Hunters and Priestess of the Moon.

I think they should have always kept the specs loosely defined in gameplay, and double down on Vanilla style balance of one role per class, while adding more classes over time. Instead of 36 specs, we could just as easily have 18-24 classes with 1-2 specs. If it makes it any easier, some classes could even be swappable, like professions, while unique Hero classes would have to be played separately as alts.

[qwerty123456]

You mean tinkerer class? I'm not sure but is that what the thread is getting at?

Yeah that's why he bolded certain parts. One of the claims he likes to use is that since Tinkering is named Engineering in Wow and Alchemy is named Alchemy that there isn't Tinkering in Wow so the only class left is the Tinker.

He even suspiciously forgets to mention his favorite class when he says "So this sort of explains why something like Warden, PotM, or Dark Rangers didn't make the cut. They were too race-specific. Instead they merged related concepts into 9 major classes."

One of the worst things they did for WoW class development was "Concentrated Coolness" They essentially made it impossible to add classes like the Blademaster (baked into Warrior), Runemaster (Baked into DK), and Necromancer (baking into Lock/DK).

Necromancer still could be its own class. Runemaster and Blademaster would be much harder to create unless Blademaster was a leather user.

[Echo of Soul]

I think we all know what this thinly veiled thread is actually meant to be about....

Oh dear god no! No more fucking tinkerer talk, or even worse using the verb tinker as the name of the class. Like calling hunter "hunt"

[Enter Name Here]

i just cannot resist this bait

so tinker was always supposed to be covered by engineering + players imagination and therefore shouldn't be implemented explicitly because it's too race specific?

[Makorus]

Oh dear god no! No more fucking tinkerer talk, or even worse using the verb tinker as the name of the class. Like calling hunter "hunt"

I hope you are aware that tinker is a noun as well, describing a person who tinkers? Tinkerer never really was an actual word.

[Gaidax]

I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;

Who cares what HS do, they do wacky shit all day long.

Know what it would do? It'd do same shit like with Hunters, where the melee spec would end up being hipster choice and Demon Hunters become nothing like they were in RTS. It's not Diablo, it's not that Demon Hunter with crossbows and shit.

I'm super glad they don't go ahead and bastardize DH with that ranged crap. If they want another ranged bow class (and bloody about time really) - Dark Rangers are like a given choice to begin with. Instead of duct taping bow to Demon Hunters because of one Hearthstone card.

[Trumpcat]

An argument that a certain fantasy or gameplay is already covered by an existing spec/class only shows a person's lack of imagination and experience in the RPG genre. At a higher level it also shows lack of understanding of marketing.

[username993720]

So this sort of explains why something like Warden, PotM, or Dark Rangers didn't make the cut. They were too race-specific. Instead they merged related concepts into 9 major classes.

Oh my god, here we go again... -_-

Is there anything else that interest you about the game beside the Tinker? Jesus... there are other aspects to the game beside classes.

I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;

And this is not simply a Hunter with green arrows?
Your duplicity never ceases to amaze me.

As @Al Gorefiend stated, it could also satisfy players yearning for a Dark Ranger class.

No, it wouldn't.

Well if you look at class inclusions since WotLK, it matches the design philosophy stated by Jordan; i.e. bringing the RTS heroes into WoW as classes, and generalizing concepts that are too racially specific and can't be easily expanded to a variety of races.

Let me tell you something about your "racially-specific" classes. Demon Hunters were added with only 2 races - the ultimate definition of a too race-specific class. Did it stop them? No. Secondly, the Monk (or Brewmaster, as it was known) was only associated with the Pandaren. Now, don't bullshit me that there were other monk and brewmaster races out there. I know that. But, the monk class itself is extremely pandaren-specifically themed. And yet, they added it. Now, as for the classes in question:

Dark Ranger - Calia/Derek undead, Forsaken, Blood elf, Night elf, Void elf and possibly Draenei and Pandaren.

Priestess of the Moon (Night Warrior) - Night elf, Nightborne, Venthyr, Worgen, Mag'har (Shadowmoon), Zandalari (Lun'alai).

Blademaster - Orc, Mag'har, Lightforged Draenei, Pandaren, Ankoan, Night elf.

Shadow Hunter - Troll, Zandalari, Orc, Mag'har (Bleeding Hollow), Saberon, Drust, Kul Tiran.

Wardens - basically, what Night Warriors and Dark Rangers will be able to (as i believe it will be combined).

Of course, this is my own speculation and there could be much more. The unplayable races are, i believe, going to be playable at some point.

You mean tinkerer class? I'm not sure but is that what the thread is getting at?

You bet your ass.

They essentially made it impossible to add classes like the Blademaster (baked into Warrior).

It isn't. One ability (Bladestorm) is like the Warlock's Metamorphosis case.

An argument that a certain fantasy or gameplay is already covered by an existing spec/class only shows a person's lack of imagination and experience in the RPG genre. At a higher level it also shows lack of understanding of marketing.

Couldn't have worded it better.

[Ghanir]

I think Dark Ranger, Necromancer and Runemaster would be fun to dabble with