Equality

[Rhelyo]

They should of had the alliance conquer and either subjugate the orcs or wipe them out entirely alongside the forsaken. It never made lore sense why those two races were allowed to exist. It honestly didnt make sense to not kill jaina for betraying admiral proudmoore since to this very day he was proven right about the orcs. It's why they tried so desperately to keep the war story going up until mop and why I think they went with the iron horde. Once they realized players can't just roll an evil character and instead try to make the fucking cannibals lawful good constantly they just threw their hands up and retconed it.

I think garrosh was the last orc that acted like an actual orc. Trolls it was ZA and ZG. Forsaken never really got anyone who acted like a proper forsaken who was an actual lore figure since... that one undead at wrathgates?

Instead they just quietly made all the more characters into different colored humans and it annoys me to this day. Blood elves remain the most faithful to their origins but that is mostly from them perfectly just being human nobles to start with.

The soul of the game was faction war to begin with. Sure they could have made the game a non faction game with plenty of races to choose from with the ultimate goal each expansion being to defeat a villain but they didn't.
The point of the thread is the obvious imbalance in losing faction leadership. And since you mentioned Jaina she should have probably been killed off after the purging of Dalaran event but Blizzard had other plans for her since they make stories expansions in advance.

[Candlewick]

So basically what I said but with a ridiculous bitterness. My dude, you even managed to shit on the tauren who literally did nothing wrong EVER (well except that one time they accidentally released an elemental princess which led to the creation of the centaurs, but eh)

Yes. The Horde races were mostly evil. And it's normal, we were basically playing the monsters from D&D. But War3 and vanilla showed us they could be more, they could have a civilization, a culture and history and even reasons to hate and fight other races. Trolls hatred against the elves is completely understandable, same as the bad blood between human and orcs or the undead and the living.

So yeah. It's cool to play the evil monsters, but if you make the effort to get them out of their old archetype, you should put an equal effort to make them get back to it. And BFA was pretty lazy on that.

I mean they didn't really make any effort to make them civilized they just became civilized because players didn't want to play the monster races at all till min maxing took hold. Also fuck this tauren did nothing wrong bullshit. Their entire lore is centered around following who bitch slapped them the hardest then becoming their toadie. That was their entire plot line of mop.

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The soul of the game was faction war to begin with. Sure they could have made the game a non faction game with plenty of races to choose from with the ultimate goal each expansion being to defeat a villain but they didn't.
The point of the thread is the obvious imbalance in losing faction leadership. And since you mentioned Jaina she should have probably been killed off after the purging of Dalaran event but Blizzard had other plans for her since they make stories expansions in advance.

Jaina is the alliance version of slyvanas in that her character becomes whatever is needed to drive the plot forward via friction . She is less a character and more a narrative tool.

[Makabreska]

They should of had the alliance conquer and either subjugate the orcs or wipe them out entirely alongside the forsaken. It never made lore sense why those two races were allowed to exist. It honestly didnt make sense to not kill jaina for betraying admiral proudmoore since to this very day he was proven right about the orcs. It's why they tried so desperately to keep the war story going up until mop and why I think they went with the iron horde. Once they realized players can't just roll an evil character and instead try to make the fucking cannibals lawful good constantly they just threw their hands up and retconed it.

I think garrosh was the last orc that acted like an actual orc. Trolls it was ZA and ZG. Forsaken never really got anyone who acted like a proper forsaken who was an actual lore figure since... that one undead at wrathgates?

Instead they just quietly made all the more characters into different colored humans and it annoys me to this day. Blood elves remain the most faithful to their origins but that is mostly from them perfectly just being human nobles to start with.

Ye, dude. You just show an outright hate for Horde, which gives you zero credibility in speculating about how WoW factions should be. Wipe out two core Horde races? Sure! Good luck with filling the Horde with Murlocs, I guess.

[Candlewick]

Ye, dude. You just show an outright hate for Horde, which gives you zero credibility in speculating about how WoW should be. Wipe out two core Horde races? Sure! Good luck with filling the Horde with Murlocs, I guess.

Lore wise its what makes sense for the narrative. I admit I find the current horde uninteresting and dull but I enjoy playing the evil faction its just horde is now the human kingdom copy pasted but with huts and spikes.

[Thestrawman]

Because dumb players kept crying for Blizzard to put "The War back in Warcraft" so we got two expansions nominally about a return of the war between the factions.

And because a Horde victory would mean redoing the map, it's easier to make the Horde lose and at the end just have the Alliance give back everything to ensure the status quo.

[Rhelyo]

I mean they didn't really make any effort to make them civilized they just became civilized because players didn't want to play the monster races at all till min maxing took hold. Also fuck this tauren did nothing wrong bullshit. Their entire lore is centered around following who bitch slapped them the hardest then becoming their toadie. That was their entire plot line of mop.

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Jaina is the alliance version of slyvanas in that her character becomes whatever is needed to drive the plot forward via friction . She is less a character and more a narrative tool.

And this shows the imbalance in Blizzard storytelling. Jaina purges a city from blood elves she gets to live and everyone is ok with that. Sylvanas is written to destroy Teldrassil and everyone wants her head on a spike (which will probably end up being banished from the story for awhile to not upset the Horde player base).

[Candlewick]

And this shows the imbalance in Blizzard storyline. Jaina purges a city from blood elves she gets to live and everyone is ok with that. Sylvanas is written to destroy Teldrassil and everyone wants her head on a spike (which will probably end up being banished from the story for awhile to not upset the Horde player base).

It's mostly because the horde still are the ones doing evil shit. The blood elves transported the in game version of a nuke through daleran. They also arrested the elves barring the ones actively fighting back. While jaina is a dumb character it isnt the same as starting a war via a surprise blizt kreg on unprepared civilians,

[Tarba]

As i seen a lot of people want Sylvanas head on a spike for what she has done in Teldrassil and as a horde i do agree she might deserve it.
But the horde these past expansion lost great names like Garrosh,Voljin and Rasthakan(even though we knew him for one expansion).Now most likely we will lose Sylvanas either by being killed or banished never to be heard of.Thrall left the horde and started agriculture.
The Horde are pretty much weakened.Except Varian i do not recall the Alliance ever losing important figures.

Why are the Horde always written as the "bad guys"?

If you have no problem with Orgrim Doomhammer and the main capital of the horde named after him, you should not have any problem with a nicer warchief than him like Sylvanas.

[DatToffer]

They should of had the alliance conquer and either subjugate the orcs or wipe them out entirely alongside the forsaken. It never made lore sense why those two races were allowed to exist. It honestly didnt make sense to not kill jaina for betraying admiral proudmoore since to this very day he was proven right about the orcs. It's why they tried so desperately to keep the war story going up until mop and why I think they went with the iron horde. Once they realized players can't just roll an evil character and instead try to make the fucking cannibals lawful good constantly they just threw their hands up and retconed it.

I think garrosh was the last orc that acted like an actual orc. Trolls it was ZA and ZG. Forsaken never really got anyone who acted like a proper forsaken who was an actual lore figure since... that one undead at wrathgates?

Instead they just quietly made all the more characters into different colored humans and it annoys me to this day. Blood elves remain the most faithful to their origins but that is mostly from them perfectly just being human nobles to start with.

Ye, dude. You just show an outright hate for Horde, which gives you zero credibility in speculating about how WoW should be. Wipe out two core Horde races? Sure! Good luck with filling the Horde with Murlocs, I guess.

No no, he's onto something actually. I would have preferred if Anduin actually kept his father's promise and the Alliance brought the Horde on their knees at the beginning of BFA.

Because the thing that made the Horde lovable, the key part of their identity, is that they are people who came together (sometimes reluctantly) and grew together in times of struggles. Being defeated, disarmed and then threatened to lose everything they built by an Alliance emboldened by their victory could really have brought all the Horde together and give them an actual good reason to fight.

[Makabreska]

No no, he's onto something actually. I would have preferred if Anduin actually kept his father's promise and the Alliance brought the Horde on their knees at the beginning of BFA.

Because the thing that made the Horde lovable, the key part of their identity, is that they are people who came together (sometimes reluctantly) and grew together in times of struggles. Being defeated, disarmed and then threatened to lose everything they built by an Alliance emboldened by their victory could really have brought all the Horde together and give them an actual good reason to fight.

This is actually a great take. Make both factions be in conflict, have done something bad but still be relatable and sympathetic. But Blizz preferred a safe approach all these years, and it seems they are done with faction war, for a while at least.

[DatToffer]

This is actually a great take. Make both factions be in conflict, have done something bad but still be relatable and sympathetic. But Blizz preferred a safe approach all these years, and it seems they are done with faction war, for a while at least.

Yeah. It's just another missed opportunity.

[Khaza-R]

Cataclysm is really to blame for shifting the Horde towards villains. The Horde from Vanilla - WotLK did some morally questionable things, but it generally could be attributed to being the underdogs and having forced to eek out an existence in an Alliance dominated world. Cataclysm, they really flipped the script and tried to put the Horde on the equal footing with the Alliance in terms of a global military power. But now all those morally questionable actions from the Horde no longer had justification. They just became the bullies in the story and the Alliance their punching bag. BfA being the worst and ultimate realization of this.

As for established lore characters, the Horde was always at a disadvantage. This partially because their entire cast of heroes from WC2 had to get thrown out when Thrall reformed the Horde. It certainly doesn't help the moment they start building characters up they tend to off them in the same or next expansion (Garrosh, Vol'jin, Saurfang). I don't think the solution here is to start offing Alliance leaders though. As we've seen new characters tend be poorly written and introduced. As a whole its not going to make the story more interesting.

[WowIsDead64]

Technically, you had a choice whether to go a long with her choices or not. Ultimately it didn't change anything.

I could only grind reps with her. I didn't have choice to grind reps with Saurfang.

[Feanoro]

Goodness, time to pull out my own quote again?

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*

Why is the Horde evil? Because there was demand for it.

- WC1 and 2 fans who didn't like what Thrall did in WC3
- New people who had no idea what the Horde was in WC3 and vanilla, who wanted to play evil monsters
- "Da WER in muh WERcreft" types

And more. LOTS of people wanted the typical fantasy trope of evil monsters, and Blizzard has amply demonstrated they'll do drastic shifts if they think it will make the numbers look better. Add in writers who are only interested in Horde and preaching their ideals ("Horde players want war? We better do a story on how it's bad!"), and you have the current mess.

Side note, bitch about the Alliance superheroes when they recover from amnesia and remember that they have all those powers and that the Horde keeps pulling shit.

[Syegfryed]

They know they can fuck the horde over and nothing happens because the fanbase eats without problem, as long you don't touch blood elves

we lost leaders and characters for years, nobody is left, horde is just plot device so the alliance can do something, its a shit way of story telling that benefits no faction in the end

You are conveniently leaving out that Garrosh went into business for himself and became an enemy of both the Alliance and the Horde.

when they purposely make him evil so he can be the enxt hitler, wao, just so organic

[Dellis0991]

I like Thrall but letting your people suffer a canyon in a desert as form of discipline will do nothing good for improving morale and being diplomatic....lets be real he made a ticking timebomb, got the fuck out the way and told nobody the fuse was lit till the sumbitch went boom.

[Varodoc]

I don't see any kind of inequality towards the Horde and am perfectly fine with the way Blizzard has written the Horde in the last few expansions.

[Dellis0991]

They know they can fuck the horde over and nothing happens because the fanbase eats without problem, as long you don't touch blood elves

we lost leaders and characters for years, nobody is left, horde is just plot device so the alliance can do something, its a shit way of story telling that benefits no faction in the end




when they purposely make him evil so he can be the enxt hitler, wao, just so organic

As long as my boy Lor'themar stay balls deep in Thalyssra and out of harms way I'm happy.

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I don't see any kind of inequality towards the Horde and am perfectly fine with the way Blizzard has written the Horde in the last few expansions.

I don't know they made a ton of horde characters do a order 66 for no damn reason or without little to no development with them.

[Varodoc]

As long as my boy Lor'themar stay balls deep in Thalyssra and out of harms way I'm happy.

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I don't know they made a ton of horde characters do a order 66 for no damn reason or without little to no development with them.

MoP: Garrosh/his followers were always presented as bloodthirsty savages who act before thinking. Garrosh himself told Thrall that he wasn't fit to lead. His place is on the battlefield fighting, using brawns instead of brains, not on the throne administering things. So it was not surprising that Garrosh would turn into a genocidal psycho.

BfA: Sylvanas/Forsaken were always presented as bloodthirsty monsters who don't care about anyone or anything and will kill anyone in their way. They always had dark plans. In Cataclysm, they nuked many towns and even an entire kingdom with the plague. So again it wasn't surprising that they'd turn into psychos.

If anything it's the Alliance that got the short end of the stick, since they are told to forgive both the Mag'har (Iron Horde/Garrosh's followers), and Sylvanas/Forsaken (because apparently the Janitor was mind-controlling them since the start, they never had free will).

[KOUNTERPARTS]

when they purposely make him evil so he can be the enxt hitler, wao, just so organic

I mean, I don't disagree.
But it is what it is; he was purposely made the villain with villainous intent (arguable) and will always have become the bad guy.


Especially in a work of fiction, where the writer's intent for character development is clear, and the purpose they have for that character is served. Before Blizzard went into the realm of "morally gray reasoning for action" they would do many years later (or with their attempt at a "halfway redemption" in SoD for him.)