Should *Everything* be Explained/Fleshed out in the Lore? Or leave things to Mystery?

[Hctaz]

My preference for is things to be partially hidden under a cloak of mystery. There's no real better example than the Old Gods back in Classic, TBC, and even WotLK - where their nature, power, and general state of being were less defined and a lot more mysterious, as befitting creatures analogous to Lovecraft's Old Ones. The full revelation that they were simply interstellar parasites created by yet another greater power (the Void Lords), robbed them of much of their gravitas and essential threat within the narrative. While the Void Lords themselves are also mysterious and thus far unexplored, they lack the slow build-up that the Old Gods received over multiple expansions, which is actually a recurring motif with WoW's ongoing story-arcs. You see the same series of demotions with the Titans, who were once mysterious creator demigods, who have been supplanted in the role by the First Ones, and the Legion, whose role as the omnicidal "big bad" has been so chipped away that they've almost become a meme at this point.

I agree, and I also point to the Halo story for the same thing. When 343 took over for Halo 4, they decided to not only define the Forerunner species, but showed them AND had us "fight" against one as the final boss.

The original concept of the Forerunners was that they were merely ancient humans, but not everybody at Bungie could agree on this nor whether they should even continue dropping more hints about the species. Many of them also agreed it was a good idea to never show the Forerunners.

The mystery surrounding a race is a crucial point at keeping things entertaining.
Like we didn't need an explanation for either of these things. The fact that Yogg's blood was special could literally have just been "Cuz he's an Old God"
The fact that the Old Gods existed could have just been "They exist" which is when I always thought they were interesting.

I think that's a concept that strongly rooted in Lovecraftian nightmares where things just exist outside of the mortal comprehension, so the logic by which they can exist simply couldn't be comprehended even if they directly told us.
I think that's the best way to explain these kinds of things in stories, especially with the Old Gods.

[Miriamel105]

the asburd ifference between likes and dislikes in blizzard cinematics show that isn't a "loud minority that like to throw shit"

Millions play this game and even more have played. Even some thousands is not even a single percent. And most of the haters don't even seem to play it anymore and as said: the main problem I got with them is, that they are unable to give an actual reason. They simply enjoy to throw shit.

I don't know why you try to pretend this is a youtuber kind of problem, when blizzard lore is in shambles for the last 3 expansions, its their own fault.

Where? I don't see where it is in shambles, nor do I know anyone who could ever explain why it should be. In contrary, the fun to watch people who care seem to have no problem at all to see or even explain how things work together. The peope who call it 'shit' meanwhile never gave me a single reason for that. IF they tell things, they are at best just the worse way to put it, so they simlpy WANT to see it in that bad way.

In that case every single story in history every told is shit. You can destroy ALL of them, if you act like this.

Then the problem is just that you are refusing to get the reasons, or, flat out ignore then, scroll some topics here and you will get plenty of reasons.

Or it's way more simple that for example you again just say this, but give no single point to support it, not even a single word.

Like Jaina serious case of flip flop mentality, handled awfully Thrall getting Crippling depression and Saurfang suddenly forgetting his entire story.

Seems for me that you are simply used to cardboard characters, who just got one kind of behaviour, who got no ups and downs, who are not driven by emotions, situations, developement. They just should stay for example "Chuck Norris" Saurfang and that's it.

What you tell me sounds more like a question of taste. And, sure, I for example dislike the taste of alcohol. But I don't go around and yell OMG, ALCOHOL SUCKS!

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I think that's a concept that strongly rooted in Lovecraftian nightmares where things just exist outside of the mortal comprehension, so the logic by which they can exist simply couldn't be comprehended even if they directly told us.
I think that's the best way to explain these kinds of things in stories, especially with the Old Gods.

Indeed and this works well in Lovecraft univere, because the whole point of it is this whole nightmare you simply can not win against.

If you have something like this, it's a very good idea to keep things as mystical as possible.

But if you want to give the characters the means to fight back: well, the first thing you have to do to win against an enemy is to learn everything about it.

Blizzard has decided, that this whole cosmic war thing should be more than just a background you are helplessly trapped in. By that it needs to have more and more structure and of course it has to be somehow beatable in the end.

Lovecraft never had the goal to sell the old gods as something you got any chance against. It's just utterly hopeless, what of course is the biggest parts of its horror.

[MoanaLisa]

Too much detail in an sort of fictional writing is a trap as it becomes more and more difficult to keep all the details sorted out and consistent. This may seem familiar at this point.

[lordjust]

It really depends. Some things like the old gods or titans were fine as a mystery because we knew enough about them to understand what role they're supposed to play and some of their motives. Other things are bad like the jailers motives. What did he find out about the cycle that convinced him he has to break it? All we know is that by judging all the sould he realized something and wanted to get to zereth mortis, when the others didn't want to give their sigils volountarily he tried to take them by force and he was banished to the maw. With this event or reasoning being a mystery we don't know enough to actually care because there isn't enough information.

[Ophenia]

Absolute "no" here. Especially when it comes to god-levels characters. We (our characters) are not supposed to know everything, even less understand all that. Plus it also totally ruins to scale : When in 15.2 we'll get to meet the Creator of the Universe or whatever, it'll very likely be a 3m-high english-speaking human (or Elf, I'm not racist) explaining us abstract subjects that we will totally understand.

I agree with everyone here who mentioned Elune or Old Gods. That was cool. It's no longer. We still don't know everything about Elune but her few "apparitions" totally demystified her to a point the next things we learn will very likely be disappointing.

Writers should understand that characters on a cosmic scale shouldn't be relatable/understandable by mere humans. And that they're nowhere bright enough to think as a Godlike character would think.

[Syegfryed]

Millions play this game and even more have played. Even some thousands is not even a single percent. And most of the haters don't even seem to play it anymore and as said: the main problem I got with them is, that they are unable to give an actual reason. They simply enjoy to throw shit.

ah yes, the good old, the millions and millions players who still like the game just are not vocal enough, and the tiny bit of players who hate the players are not even a single percent.

And again, people gave multiple actual reasons, you are just choosing to ignore

Where?

ah i forgot you are a new account, that explain everything

Or it's way more simple that for example you again just say this, but give no single point to support it, not even a single word.

1- nonsensical plotlines
2- bad and multiple retcons
3- characters ruined
4- stories rushed/ignored
5- straight up awful story decisions and bad routes taken
6- factions being ajoke of what they were
7- Characters killed for no reason other than chock and moving the plot

so on, but sure, not a "single point", now im awful curious of how you will try to dismiss all of this, maybe saying its a youtuber thing perhaps?

Seems for me that you are simply used to cardboard characters, who just got one kind of behaviour, who got no ups and downs, who are not driven by emotions, situations, developement. They just should stay for example "Chuck Norris" Saurfang and that's it.

ah sure, the character who simple forget his whole story before this expansion, the one who flip flop mentality as the plot demands, and the other is simple to sad to stand ip are sure are "driven by emotions"

Seems like you are simple used to awful storytelling and shows for kids, without any background at all,

What you tell me sounds more like a question of taste. And, sure, I for example dislike the taste of alcohol. But I don't go around and yell OMG, ALCOHOL SUCKS!

Sure it is a question of taste, some people just like bad stuff, but you sure are going around saying it taste good, lol

[Nerovar]

The mystery should come from the lore, the world building, the things in the background with the story itself in foreground being rather straightforward.

With Blizzard's modern writing it's the other way around. All of the mystery is in the plot which pretty much consists of jumping from one mystery box to another with the players being absolutely clueless until the expansion is over while the actual world building has zero ambiguity and room for speculation and every nook and cranny of the cosmos gets explained to us (see: Shadowlands).

They simply got it backwards and it's boring as hell.

[Hctaz]

Indeed and this works well in Lovecraft univere, because the whole point of it is this whole nightmare you simply can not win against.

If you have something like this, it's a very good idea to keep things as mystical as possible.

But if you want to give the characters the means to fight back: well, the first thing you have to do to win against an enemy is to learn everything about it.

Blizzard has decided, that this whole cosmic war thing should be more than just a background you are helplessly trapped in. By that it needs to have more and more structure and of course it has to be somehow beatable in the end.

Lovecraft never had the goal to sell the old gods as something you got any chance against. It's just utterly hopeless, what of course is the biggest parts of its horror.

Except we fought back and won against multiple Old Gods before they were explained. We didn't need to know what they were in order to beat them in a boss battle and contain them.

[Divada]

Pulling back the 'cosmic curtain' of WoW has done the lore absolutely no favors. Some mystery is essential. Not a lot, just the right amount so the world has speculative flavor. WoW lost that so there's no going back, sadly. Mystery in the PLOT is another matter entirely, and WoW writers have spectacularly failed at that the past two expansions so they need to go back to telling straight forward story with clear motives and goals.

[mysticx]

Some big things (The titans, the leadership of the Legion, Old gods, Elune) should have stayed unexplained, have us fight forces of the legion, but not haul off to their homeworld, have us see the works of the titans, maybe an obviously stylized image, but not the real things, show us the influence of Elune indirectly, but not the "Oops, into the maw you say? my bad!" part.

The whole mystique is gone, C'Thun was defeated but not killed, but we killed G'huun as a matter of course, Elune has been exposed as, quite frankly, a schmuck, the Legion is shattered (Not pushed back, but pretty much wrecked), and oh yeah, everything was set up by Dreadlords all along!

[Zendhal The Black]

Shroud of mystery, when used properly, is really awesome for story.

puting every god damn thing, and move characters are making like in shadowlands is beyond awful. You can't put sylvanas or jailer intentions like a carrot on a stick and expect it will have the same feeling like old gods before TBC/Wrath

[Nerovar]

Some big things (The titans, the leadership of the Legion, Old gods, Elune) should have stayed unexplained, have us fight forces of the legion, but not haul off to their homeworld, have us see the works of the titans, maybe an obviously stylized image, but not the real things, show us the influence of Elune indirectly, but not the "Oops, into the maw you say? my bad!" part.

The whole mystique is gone, C'Thun was defeated but not killed, but we killed G'huun as a matter of course, Elune has been exposed as, quite frankly, a schmuck, the Legion is shattered (Not pushed back, but pretty much wrecked), and oh yeah, everything was set up by Dreadlords all along!

This is exactly why I think Warcraft lore is broken beyond repair. They have so thoroughly demystified the entire setting that even if they would attempt to "repair" it by setting up new mysteries and a new mythology, it would only serve to supplant what has been eroded and effectively no longer really be Warcraft.

[Miriamel105]

It really depends. Some things like the old gods or titans were fine as a mystery because we knew enough about them to understand what role they're supposed to play and some of their motives. Other things are bad like the jailers motives. What did he find out about the cycle that convinced him he has to break it? All we know is that by judging all the sould he realized something and wanted to get to zereth mortis, when the others didn't want to give their sigils volountarily he tried to take them by force and he was banished to the maw. With this event or reasoning being a mystery we don't know enough to actually care because there isn't enough information.

I mean, the story of SL and Jailer is simply not finished yet, so in the end it's just unfair to judge it. It's like calling a book bad before you finished it, because the motives of the antagonist are not declared on the page you want them to.

Overall, all cosmis forces seem want to win for different reasons. That Death also sits at the table and is not the only cosmic power that ignores the whole thing is not really a surprise. Overall most gods of death simply seem to be fine with the running system - only one is not.

The exact reason for this does not even matter, but it's not said that it will never play any role.

That the Jailer did not like to be forced into the Maw via domination magic - I mean, who would like that and not try to find a way out of it?

Overall the story CAN still end bad - but it's simply not finished yet. The peopel who hate on it all the time simply seem to enjoy that alone, no matter what. They don't name actual reasons for it and don't seem to care. Everything is just 'bad', because they want it to be bad.

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This is exactly why I think Warcraft lore is broken beyond repair. They have so thoroughly demystified the entire setting that even if they would attempt to "repair" it by setting up new mysteries and a new mythology, it would only serve to supplant what has been eroded and effectively no longer really be Warcraft.

Can you explain this? Because on its own it does not make much sense - and I read the exact opposite of what you said often enough.

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Some big things (The titans, the leadership of the Legion, Old gods, Elune) should have stayed unexplained, have us fight forces of the legion, but not haul off to their homeworld, have us see the works of the titans, maybe an obviously stylized image, but not the real things, show us the influence of Elune indirectly, but not the "Oops, into the maw you say? my bad!" part.

The whole mystique is gone, C'Thun was defeated but not killed, but we killed G'huun as a matter of course, Elune has been exposed as, quite frankly, a schmuck, the Legion is shattered (Not pushed back, but pretty much wrecked), and oh yeah, everything was set up by Dreadlords all along!

Sorry, but it seems you just don't (want to?) get the actual story, since this misses what actually was told by quite a margine. And when I(!) know this, who mainly look at WoW lore and story from the outside for some entertainment, an actual player should even more.

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Except we fought back and won against multiple Old Gods before they were explained. We didn't need to know what they were in order to beat them in a boss battle and contain them.

You poked their toes and overall, the Warcraft old gods are not even close to the same level as the Lovecraft old gods. Their creators more likely are, but again: Warcraft is not set up as the completely hopeless horror story the Lovecraft universe is.

One reason for this is by the way, that there are the other cosmic forces. Good luck to survive against just the void or just fell alone. No chance.

Got luck to beat the Lich King without the help of the light.

Good luck to beat Yogg-Saron without the help of order.

Good luck to beat N'Zoth without Azeroth and dragons.

In the Lovecraft universe, you are simply a human against the dark eternity of insane beings your mind can't even grasp.

Sure, you could tell the Warcraft story like that, too. I don't think the majority would like it all too much, since if you take it seriously, all your chars wouldn't survive long and pretty much never win in any way. And if you don't take it seriously - well, then it wouldn't be Lovecraft anymore.

The whole problem of the Warcraft old gods are, that they are pretty big parasites and have digged deep into the body of Azeroth. Titans for example can easily obliterate them. Prob is, that it's like cutting a parasite from a human body, it's not healthy for the body, too.

But sure, as a start it was okay to not know much about the old gods, but in the end it would be odd to just never learn anything about them, no? Overall you can't say, that they void and their tools are just an open book and everything is solved around it. Not even close. What is known about the void and the void gods? Still pretty much nothing. And even the old gods are still full of mysteries.

It's not like you got a glorious victory against them, that just solves everything. You managed to survive for a while longer. That's it. No one even touched the void gods.

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ah yes, the good old, the millions and millions players who still like the game just are not vocal enough, and the tiny bit of players who hate the players are not even a single percent.

And again, people gave multiple actual reasons, you are just choosing to ignore



ah i forgot you are a new account, that explain everything




1- nonsensical plotlines
2- bad and multiple retcons
3- characters ruined
4- stories rushed/ignored
5- straight up awful story decisions and bad routes taken
6- factions being ajoke of what they were
7- Characters killed for no reason other than chock and moving the plot

so on, but sure, not a "single point", now im awful curious of how you will try to dismiss all of this, maybe saying its a youtuber thing perhaps?





ah sure, the character who simple forget his whole story before this expansion, the one who flip flop mentality as the plot demands, and the other is simple to sad to stand ip are sure are "driven by emotions"

Seems like you are simple used to awful storytelling and shows for kids, without any background at all,

Sure it is a question of taste, some people just like bad stuff, but you sure are going around saying it taste good, lol

ACTUAL examples. You just write completely worthless allegation. Yeah, I know those. People who want to feel better by throwing shit at others, but what shall I take from that? I only see that you like to throw shit for what reason ever.

See: the people who are fine with the WoW story, they do deliver reasons en mass. They can easily explain how everything fits together.

You guys just come up with some empty buzz words and that should be enough to just forget about all the explanation the other guys gave.

No. That's not how it works. I mean, it works for you, because all you want is to spit on something, but it's simply no argument.

Your whole post is again completely unable to give a single example of what your problem is.

"Sure it is a question of taste, some people just like bad stuff, but you sure are going around saying it taste good, lol "

You completely lack the understanding of the point.

[Nerovar]

Can you explain this? Because on its own it does not make much sense - and I read the exact opposite of what you said often enough.

There's always been this trend in WoW to reveal big mysteries of the universe as a sort of payoff that is supposed to function as a substitute for a worthwhile story. One thing that becomes apparent when looking at the way WoW handled this is that if you take things like the Light, Elune, Sargeras (or the Titans in general) etc. and drag them onto the plot level they tend to become characters like everyone else and in the process lose whatever mythical qualities they had to begin with.

Who still cares about the Titans after our interactions with them in Legion? Probably a lot fewer people than in Classic when everything we knew about the Titans was told to us through the names of items, descriptions in ingame books and a few lore snippets in the form of archaeological sites i.e. actual history that exists in the world of Azeroth. Same goes for any other "deity" or big antagonist. Does the Burning Legion/demons still hold any interest after we walked into their home town and wrecked their shit? Does Elune still evoke the same mystery after her cosmic blunder in Shadowlands?

Personally, I just don't care about the aforementioned characters anymore and I think a lot of players share this sentiment. But where do you go from here? Blizzard seems to know that they've broken down too much of the old lore which is why they've started making up entirely new stuff we've never heard a single word about in 28 years of Warcraft. But to me this is like breaking/demystifying the concept of the Force, Jedi and Sith in Star Wars only to come up with a new cosmic force with different disciples, a totally new Empire etc. - it completely misses the point and does nothing but degrade what was already there.

Obviously, if you disagree with my initial premise that these aspects of the lore have indeed been demystified and have become worse because of that, you're not going to arrive at this conclusion.

[Feanoro]

Every mystery that has been explained has completely ruined the character/setting/concept. Explanations should only be attempted by highly competent writers, who will have enough sense to leave the audience wanting more.

[Syegfryed]

ACTUAL examples. You just write completely worthless allegation.

This is going to be your cope out? that thsoe aren't "examples" but Allegations? come on, you can do better than that.

Yeah, I know those. People who want to feel better by throwing shit at others, but what shall I take from that? I only see that you like to throw shit for what reason ever.

>ask what the reasons people think the story is bad
>say that we like to thro shit for no reason

lmao, you just are doing everything as the blizzard white knigt books says you to do.

See: the people who are fine with the WoW story, they do deliver reasons en mass. They can easily explain how everything fits together.

ah yes, only the people who like wow story are the ones who deliver the reasons en mass

mind you, you the only one saying we don't have reasons or examples of how the lore is shit(despite saying tons) but you in other hand didn't said a single reason of why the lore is good, you keep saying millions of people like, and they deliver lots of reasons why is good.

You guys just come up with some empty buzz words and that should be enough to just forget about all the explanation the other guys gave.

"others guys have"

nice buzzwords friends, what all the explanations are all of those?

No. That's not how it works. I mean, it works for you, because all you want is to spit on something, but it's simply no argument.

you had arguments, but you tried to dismiss as "alegations"

Your whole post is again completely unable to give a single example of what your problem is.

i gave you 7 overall problems

but i will expand thn to you, so you don't have nowhere to hide.

1- nonsensical plotlines -> BfA and shadowlands are full of those, with people being dumb for the sake of plot, the whole war of thorns and BfA was a nonsensical plotline that require the horde and their characters to be extremely stupid and forget the past and what happened in siege of orgrimmar, is compltely nonsensical for then to commit the same mistake they did with Garrosh, Thor that with the dumb attack of the alliance to zandalar to "prevent then of join the horde, but making then join the horde because of that"

2- bad and multiple retcons -> multiple retcons are happening since last 3 expansions, and while we always had, then, we are having too many and for no fucking reasons, thus, bad, Like Derek proudmore body being incinerated by red dragons and his ashes sink in the ocean for 30 years, just so we could find his pristine body so we could revive, for a dumb plot that never came to pass.

3- characters ruined -> Thrall, Saurfang and Sylvanas were examples of characters ruined for the sake of the plot, Saurfang was a proud and honorable warrior who already had his "emotional" state, he already suffered the loss of his son and found new strenght to find, he was not someone who be ind bout or act the way he did in BfA, he said he would kill Garrosh himself if he could, but then they made his dumb story of "rebellion" to him in the end die for a shit sylvanas cope out, Thrall keeps going on with crippiling depresion and isntead of making him face his actions they keep pretend its not his fault

4- stories rushed/ignored- > N'zoth story and nyalotha instead of their owne xpansions got a shit final aptch with a raid, not evena zone, and thats it.

5- straight up awful story decisions and bad routes taken - > making th e horde villains again by attacking teldrasil, when the story could have being much better if the alliance attacked lordaeron first.

6- factions being a joke of what they were -> horde is now red alliance witha council and alliance is blue horde with a highking/warchief

7- Characters killed for no reason other than chock and moving the plot -> Vol'jin killed in broken shore by shit plot convenience with "fel poison" that we never saw before, going against troll regeneration, just so we could have sylvanas for warchief, this links with characters ruined, as vol'jin as a ghost became a hypocrite dipshit, who didn't say a thing about sylvanas but made a rebellion against Garrosh for less.


Bure sure, keep saying there is no reasons, everything is merry

Mind you, this is just the horde side, we can dig for the alliance as well and how they ruined tyrande and made the entire night warrior thing a joke, with the "goddess" stopping her from killing sylvanas, then asking her to chose, rofl.

Ah yes, choking the undead who don't breath. peak quality.

[cparle87]

Okey lol, I mean..Its pretty clear tbh and why most dont buy their statement on closing a warcraft 3 chapter for obvious reasons. What seems to be unclear for you? Want to be funny or did you really not get what closing a warcraft 3 saga means? Does the name danuser ring any bells?

What statement? Closing Warcraft 3? A chapter of what? Closing a saga? And then some overused meme blaming Danuser for whatever thing you're upset about.

[Miriamel105]

There's always been this trend in WoW to reveal big mysteries of the universe as a sort of payoff that is supposed to function as a substitute for a worthwhile story. One thing that becomes apparent when looking at the way WoW handled this is that if you take things like the Light, Elune, Sargeras (or the Titans in general) etc. and drag them onto the plot level they tend to become characters like everyone else and in the process lose whatever mythical qualities they had to begin with.

Who still cares about the Titans after our interactions with them in Legion? Probably a lot fewer people than in Classic when everything we knew about the Titans was told to us through the names of items, descriptions in ingame books and a few lore snippets in the form of archaeological sites i.e. actual history that exists in the world of Azeroth. Same goes for any other "deity" or big antagonist. Does the Burning Legion/demons still hold any interest after we walked into their home town and wrecked their shit? Does Elune still evoke the same mystery after her cosmic blunder in Shadowlands?

Personally, I just don't care about the aforementioned characters anymore and I think a lot of players share this sentiment. But where do you go from here? Blizzard seems to know that they've broken down too much of the old lore which is why they've started making up entirely new stuff we've never heard a single word about in 28 years of Warcraft. But to me this is like breaking/demystifying the concept of the Force, Jedi and Sith in Star Wars only to come up with a new cosmic force with different disciples, a totally new Empire etc. - it completely misses the point and does nothing but degrade what was already there.

Obviously, if you disagree with my initial premise that these aspects of the lore have indeed been demystified and have become worse because of that, you're not going to arrive at this conclusion.

Where is the light a character ever? There are close to no infos. Elune? Got a very small conversation with her 'sister', that's it, still 99,99% mystery.

Sargeras? Where did he become more or less than he always has been? He's a Titan driven mad by his fear of the void, willing to just sacrifice all life just for taking them the possibility to corrupt it. He was always that and still is that.

I don't know what you are talking about.

"Who still cares about the Titans after our interactions with them in Legion?"

I don't know. I don't care that much about WoW at all, I'm not a fangirl or so, it's more surprising, what a quite loud and angry group of haters fly around it, who got nothing else to do than throwing shit at it and from my PoV none of it makes sense (like for example that above). I actually looked a bit deeper in the whole lore and story thing of WoW BECAUSE those angry screamers - and did not find what they talk about at all.

Makes me sad, because when people are like that when it come to mere fiction, I really can' trust them at all when it comes to real things, which are MORE complex and there is more at stake. When I see for example people fall for the whitewashing of warcrimes and planetar genocide as 'solution' in FF14, it indeed increases my fear how little there is to keep us away from a 3. WW, when people eat such a dumb story that simply just tells them: murdering everyone is a wonderful solution, as is torture and war and war crimes, as long as we commit them. Also war is super easy and since we are the good guys, we gonna win and it will cost us almost nothing. It's almost 100% of all the typical war propaganda points you have in RL and people just eat them and of course war propaganda in RL is also just that: fiction. The problem in RL is, tht this fiction lead to events in reality and in contrary to the game story, this will not be controlled by an author who just bends the whole world around you to make you win.

Back to the Titans: It's just a different kind of story. Instead of your usual religion stuff with powerful beings or even (close to) ominpotent gods, many of those weer also just 'created'. You don't have to like that, again: I'm also not a super fan of the WoW story and lore, just as I don't like alcohol and many other things, what is simply a question of PERSONAL taste. That does not mean that I don't see the efffort put into making these things, making a Whisky, a Vine, writing a story, a gigantic lore and how much work it is to make all this fit together (and sadly these days that's very rarely the case, most stories these days don't even care to make things fit when it's just a 2hour movie or alike). WoW DOES care. CLEARLY. I don't get how there is even a discussion about that, because it's THAT obvious, that they care and put a hell lot of work into it.

Again: what I see from the haters is not a SINGLE argument. It's just the hate. So, okay, they just want to spit at it, fine. That's... sad? And that's pretty much it, it's just sad when people waste their time to just hate on something for the sole purpose to... just hate on it.

But it's probably just that 'to crawl to the bigwigs and bully the underlings' things. A certain kind of people just feels better by at least creating that idea that they are higher up on the ladder by devaluing others and their work. And that they can't explain it makes that pretty clear.

"Blizzard seems to know that they've broken down too much of the old lore which is why they've started making up entirely new stuff we've never heard a single word about in 28 years of Warcraft."

Sorry, but 28 years of Warcraft? You really want to count those first years of an RTS and that it simply should always stayed there? So overall, you simply don't want to have a work, a lore, content, you just want a a small pocket dimension in which everything just stays the same more groundhog day than everything else.

I mean, fine, if that's what you want, that's what you want. It's pretty... specific.

And they did not just create new things. The cosmic forces are a thing for a very long time and of course these also have a backgruond, could just have been 'there' all the time - or also been created and whatever.

The problem with the Jedi is a completely different thing, because it took something that was acceptable simple for a space fantasy story and pushed it over the line to just be dumb and that without adding anything to it.

You can't compare magic just being 'bacteria' (and that without going further into it, you COULD make something out of that, they just don't) to the quite old idea, that reality was indeed manifactured - including the gods. The idea of a powerful architect is even something you find in many world religions. When it comes to having gods in your story (beyond just the faith in them without them ever showing up nor doing anything), it's just an as much interesting take as simply making them powerful people.

Also the idea, that your godlike being discovers, that they were just crafted, that's a funny idea. Sad enough, with so much crying around, they will likely shy away from doing much with it.

- - - Updated - - -

Finally, I will just ignore the rant before that.

1- nonsensical plotlines -> BfA and shadowlands are full of those, with people being dumb for the sake of plot, the whole war of thorns and BfA was a nonsensical plotline that require the horde and their characters to be extremely stupid and forget the past and what happened in siege of orgrimmar, is compltely nonsensical for then to commit the same mistake they did with Garrosh, Thor that with the dumb attack of the alliance to zandalar to "prevent then of join the horde, but making then join the horde because of that"

Please re-write that in an understandable way. Including grammatik, sorry, I barely get what part of the sentences are supposed to mean. And if you do it, again, just bring up your actual point. You write "they commit the same mistake", just write directly what you mean. Maybe see this as a sign for how hard writing can be.

2- bad and multiple retcons -> multiple retcons are happening since last 3 expansions, and while we always had, then, we are having too many and for no fucking reasons, thus, bad, Like Derek proudmore body being incinerated by red dragons and his ashes sink in the ocean for 30 years, just so we could find his pristine body so we could revive, for a dumb plot that never came to pass.

That's all you can bring up as example? In a high fantasy setting you rant about something little as this? I mean, sure, whatever makes you happy, but, oh my... In that case you simply hate all stories in the world, right? Because if that's your limit, I can't imagine how much almost all other stories must suck for you.

3- characters ruined -> Thrall, Saurfang and Sylvanas were examples of characters ruined for the sake of the plot, Saurfang was a proud and honorable warrior who already had his "emotional" state, he already suffered the loss of his son and found new strenght to find, he was not someone who be ind bout or act the way he did in BfA, he said he would kill Garrosh himself if he could, but then they made his dumb story of "rebellion" to him in the end die for a shit sylvanas cope out, Thrall keeps going on with crippiling depresion and isntead of making him face his actions they keep pretend its not his fault

So you don't like that Saurfang is not an invincible murder monkey who solves the plot for you and instead is driven by all the hardship of a long life full of violence and regrets. I mean, fine, so you like action stories with boom, bang and so on. That's fine. It still fits a lot to the character, especially over the years it simply does not seem to be what you like, to have an ACTUAL character with all his struggles. Saurfang yearned for a heroic death long before. And he got it. He knew, that he wouldn't survive that duell. But he also knew, that he could find a death worth to die, for his horde. He died to save so many lives of the horde on his side - and the horde on the other side, his 'brother and sisters' as he said right before that. That you hate this... fine, like I hate alcohol. Again, the difference is that I don't run around and yell. ALCOHOL IS SHIT!

4- stories rushed/ignored- > N'zoth story and nyalotha instead of their owne xpansions got a shit final aptch with a raid, not evena zone, and thats it.

Sure, whatever. I wonder what MMORPG could make you happy, then or what game, because most are FAR more 'rushed' than that.

5- straight up awful story decisions and bad routes taken - > making th e horde villains again by attacking teldrasil, when the story could have being much better if the alliance attacked lordaeron first.

Meh, question of taste again. You can easily argue that the horde also got enough reason to fight back against the Alliance and the night elves.

6- factions being a joke of what they were -> horde is now red alliance witha council and alliance is blue horde with a highking/warchief

Funny, since in the last point you disliked the idea of the horde being too savage, then you also dislike the idea that the horde is too civlized. Overall a good character is mainly written by their struggle, not their power. You can easily say, that the horde is simply more interesting than the alliance, with more depth.

7- Characters killed for no reason other than chock and moving the plot -> Vol'jin killed in broken shore by shit plot convenience with "fel poison" that we never saw before, going against troll regeneration, just so we could have sylvanas for warchief, this links with characters ruined, as vol'jin as a ghost became a hypocrite dipshit, who didn't say a thing about sylvanas but made a rebellion against Garrosh for less.

It's a full out war scenario against an enemy who got total annihilation as goal. And you really cry about that peopel are dying there? Fel is poison by itself, it always was, it literally corrupts life, consumes it, destroys it. And again you simply seem to want a very bland and shallow story, in which verything just easily falls into place. Again: that's fine, but again: no neason to around around and yell 'THAT'S SHIT' just because it's simply not after your TASTE.

Ah yes, choking the undead who don't breath. peak quality.

She wanted to rip/squeeze her head off. They even managed to show that in Sylvanas' reaction. It's one of those typical BS pseudo reasons I meant, when people clearly just want to hate on something and so they just make something up. Tyrande even said several times before, that she wanted her head. And when you got the power and are driven by such rage, it even makes additional sense, that you want to FEEL it with your own hands. She wanted to brutally rip Sylvanas head of with her own hands, wanted to feel how her neck breaks and her tissue tears, wanted to hold her dead head in her hands and maybe even crush that, before burning it and her body to ash with moonfire.

But of course you could also just cry endlessly about "SHE WANTS TO CHOKE AN UNDEAD, SO DUMB!"

[Iheartnathanos]

“Part of the attraction of The L.R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

[Alanar]

What statement? Closing Warcraft 3? A chapter of what? Closing a saga? And then some overused meme blaming Danuser for whatever thing you're upset about.

I think you missed the interview looking at your response.. danuser said: this 9.2 is patch that closes a chapter on the warcraft. 3 with death.

You are making it just.. really hard for yourself.. again, its weird you think I am jaded or angry when you cant even read what I am saying. /palm