Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

[Doffen]

I agree with this 100%. The system revived dungeons - the whole layer of potentially cool content which was abandoned the moment you took step in your first raid. Which was sad. Now not only it is fun but also is somewhat rewarding and allows for people who not raid experience power grow.

And what you wrote here is exactly why

Great if you've got friends, attrocious if you don't.

Might be true for some, but when I was really into the game back in Legion I had so much fun pugging mythic+. I have had more than 1000 mythic+ pugs, most in Legion, and I felt that pugging was amazing.

Pugging in WoW for me was never as fun as it was in Legion and m+. The sheer fact that you could and can log a character and start progressing within minutes is kinda great, friends and enemies(pun) alike.

[Argorwal]

in the way was done yes ... it added another "required" thing for people that want to raid. It should have been an alternate path for gear progression,or not relied on gear and only rankings/cosmetics for rewards. Early on it further entrenched the rush rush mentality of the game, encouraging "best path" or you suck mentality.

It is an alternate gearing path.

The “problem” though is for some “competitive” players nothing can ever be viewed as an “alternate” because it has power. It immediately becomes an “additional” thing.

But i guess that’s the nature of people “competing” in a fantasy RPG where you get in groups to kill monsters.

[scubi666stacy]

While I don't question the idea, it's funny how differently certain things can be viewed when talking about the past & the present. Nowadays, things that slow you down are considered cynical roadblocks that help retain subs; in vanilla though, being forced to travel a lot was part of the immersion Maybe it was, but one has to admit it also prolonged the content.

Travel in Vanilla was completely different. Zones were built different.

Anyway, I have enjoyed HCs in TBC or Mythic Dungeons in WoD more than I have enjoyed M+ in any expansion. The timer is an annoying feature, it was OK in the MoP dungeon challenges, but these things have been a feature you do once on a character and don't have to grind ever again and can play an alt to get your gold ratings. There is too much grind and gear gets useless too fast. You never get the feeling that you have "completed" a character and can move on to another.

They did a similar thing in reputations with paragon chests. All because some no-lifers whine about "nothing to do in the game" after they binge on the content.

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And this right here in a nutshell is why wow is suffering so bad, back when wow was successful it wasnt just considered as a social game, only a social game, social > everything else.

Wows true identity was a complete mix of elitism and social. the more the difficulty of the game has been dumbed down the more the social community has spread to the point where the better players that care more about how good they are than making friends are leaving.

Thats fine i might hear you say, its fine for you, for the players that cared about how good they were it really isnt fine, because the game they loved has gone while you socials still get what you want, to be able to stand in fire with your friends and laugh about it, but thats always been the way anyway, just now you dont feel inadequate when someone genuinely good enters the room.

ive watched expansion upon expansion as the level of top 100 players drops and drops and drops, top 10 world players will still be good, but top 100, top 1000 the level of them is the lowest its ever been, all thanks to these systems socials keep asking for.

Make rotations simpler, im unable to follow a 4/5/6 button rotation i need help because i have a job and i can only log in for 15minutes a fortnight i deserve glaives too its my game too.
Please change primary stats for me because im unable to sort my gear properly i am a warrior and sometimes i keep equipping intellect by accident its not fair
Taughast is too hard, even though players of my class have completed it, its too hard and impossible.

These.....are....the.....people.......wow......has......accomadated.......for......a...... .decade.

And here you are, asking for blizzard to remove the only place left where the elitists go (+25 and above) and your here still, unhappy that they can still enjoy the game and make you feel inadequate. i dispise players like you, you are awful, and you hate it when anyone or anything reveals that, thats why you want m+ gone. crappy casual noob social

Sounds like you have some ego problems. The segregation of WoW began when they began introducing layers of difficulties, not the other way around.

[Zodiark]

In it's current form: HUGE mistake.

The best version, would be to scale players to a set iLevel (like Time walk) and stay at that iLevel, regardless of the Keystone level. And then only give cosmetic rewards. MAYBE a mount at a certain level.

It should never ever yield PvE rewards or battle pets.

Yes I would tend to agree. The lording of player power over the heads of gamers is too much a temptation. To those with the time and motivation to run M+ as it is today only creates a rift between the playerbase.

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Blizzard should take a system that has incredibly high engagement and replace it with a system that had incredibly low engagement? Brilliant.

Players of WoW are not motivated by cosmetic rewards. CModes are not coming back. M+ is not going away.

I understand your point about players in WOW not being motivated by cosmetics. I believe this is in part the designers fault. The content in the game at some point became irrelevant and only the players ability to crush it and get through it became the point. But I posit that shouldn't be the case. WoW's game design and dungeons should be fun and enjoyable regardless of weather you gain noticeable player power increases by doing it. That said of course players want to be rewarded for their time. Which is why I proposed making a currency system where even when you run random dungeons of any level you get a tangible reward for your time investment. Harder difficulty versions could just award higher currency values so you can purchase whichever gear you might need.

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Hate the timed aspect. Ruined dungeons for me so I avoid it like the plague.

The timed aspect created a schism between players. Simply because some like that and are all about, go, go, go! While others are more in it for the fun of it and just enjoying the grouping aspect.

[Jigga93]

M+ is a good system. i do think they could change how rewards work for it though like the weekly cache and valor upgrades.

[epigramx]

It was the reason to quit the PVE part of wow for me.

No fun racing against the clock and mandatory for raiding (what I hated) which I played Pve for.

That makes no sense. Most hard core PvErs I know hate m+ beyond level 20 to get the portals.

If you actually like PvE: the top level doesn't care about m+ much either.

PS level 20 is very easy by the way to them (with max raiding gear)

[Devilyaki]

You know that will kill M+, it will be as popular as microholidays are lol

Then do they like the system or the reward?

[T-34]

Then do they like the system or the reward?

Both.
M+ is made for people that like to be competitive in small scale groups in a typical RPG-setting where you kill stuff to get gear so you can kill more stuff so you can get more gear etc...
M+ is in many ways similar to raids with the difference that is has a much more granular difficulty level = there is something for everyone - from the functional imbeciles to the best of the best.
Another big difference is the re-playability and the much more granular and sophisticated way to measure yourself and your group against other players and groups.
Especially the last seems to make those that either are unable or unwilling to perform in a competitive setting very angry

There is plenty of other content in WoW for people that don't find it fun to perform in a competitive setting.
Those people should enjoy such content with other uncompetitive people instead of wasting their time complaining about it.

[paxen]

People who think "they only do it for the gear" is somehow an indiction of M+ are missing the part where *everything* you do in WoW is about "progressing your character", eg gaining gear.

No, people don't raid or pvp or m+ in order to gain gear. But part of the gameplay loop of this game is beat challenge, get gear, beat harder challenge. If raiding was ilvl locked and only rewarded cosmetics and titles, how do you think that would work out? Not good? Well, the same applies to M+. People who play WoW on some level enjoy the gearing loop. The gearing loop is only part of it, most of us are here for the gameplay first and foremost, but take away gearing and WoW breaks in meaningful ways. This applies to all three pillars, raiding, M+ and pvp. Saying that "people only M+ for gear" is both false* and also irrelevant.

(With the exception of people who run 15s to keep up with their heroic raiding guild mates. I wonder if M+ gearing should be reworked so that you get 239 at 15 and 252 at 20, this would require valor to be able to upgrade to 252 with high enough rating.)

[Devilyaki]

Both.
M+ is made for people that like to be competitive in small scale groups in a typical RPG-setting where you kill stuff to get gear so you can kill more stuff so you can get more gear etc...
M+ is in many ways similar to raids with the difference that is has a much more granular difficulty level = there is something for everyone - from the functional imbeciles to the best of the best.
Another big difference is the re-playability and the much more granular and sophisticated way to measure yourself and your group against other players and groups.
Especially the last seems to make those that either are unable or unwilling to perform in a competitive setting very angry

There is plenty of other content in WoW for people that don't find it fun to perform in a competitive setting.
Those people should enjoy such content with other uncompetitive people instead of wasting their time complaining about it.

Think a lot more people do it as just another chore than a system they compete in.

[crusadernero]

Think a lot more people do it as just another chore than a system they compete in.

You just summed up MMORPGs.

[schwarzkopf]

It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.

Agreed - the fact it has continuous difficulty range from 0 to 25+ and there is a choice of multiple dungeons make it far more interesting and accessible than raids.

[Archy]

Yes I would tend to agree. The lording of player power over the heads of gamers is too much a temptation. To those with the time and motivation to run M+ as it is today only creates a rift between the playerbase.

Very much disagree. Gearing is a part of progression in WoW. There are a lot of people who only play mythic+. Just make it a seperate progression.
There are (I think) 4 parts in WoW. Raiding, Mythic+, PvP and completionists/solo stuff. Just seperate those 4 with only small overlaps.
The highest content from every part should reward the same item level in the outside world. But just give it the PvP treatment in instances. (Yes, also raid gear). So maybe you don't have to start from scratch if you choose another lane but you will never get comparable gear from sources outside your chosen content.

I'm aware that this solution is not very elegant but it's simple and it works.

Also they should bring back the challenger mode with a nice transmog set for gold. I really enjoyed that. Set gear and no timer.

[Aphrel]

some parts were great, some less so. It for sure revitalized a part of the game that most ppl considered the games toturial mode at the time.

However, looking at the current system i feel like blizzards attempt at trying to make dungeons an esport scene is a misstake and it takes away from teh game what dungeons could become.

I woudlve preferd a set amount of difficulty levels to dungeons similar to the raidingscene (this where the case in the past but back then blizzard made the misstake of tuning all difficulties the same as raidings lfr for some reason). The highest dungeon diff should being very difficult and tuned for the best gear availible imo. Thus landing us at 3 m+ dungeon difficulties that each patch changes to match their raid normal/hc/mythic counterparts.

The rotating affixes however are imo are a great way of making dungeons feel fresh. But with the current competitive aspect and timer combined with keylevel now they are unwelcome as they directly mess with the metrics you are pushing to improve. (gl pushing the cancer score on a week with the more punishing affixes...)

These affixes would however work far better in a more static difficulty settling.

Lastly, i think the timer isnt adding any fun to the dungeon. I have pushed io scores in past seasons and looking back at it it wasnt as fun as it shoudlve been, it was mostly annoying. My main interest lies in simply grouping up to beat the content, not trying to partake in an esport for dungeon running. The timer is an annoyance imo.


Overall: i think m+ was a huge success, but man there are so many changes id love to see to it. Still its a far more successful feature than challenge modes were. However, going from being a tutorial to be part of the endgame progression is a huge step, i cant wait to see what the next step will be or dungeons in the future expansions.

[mrgreenthump]

It was the best thing they've added.. At least in a decade. They just took it the wrong way as Legion M+ was the best version IMHO.

[Ardourdan]

It was without doubt the most innovative dungeon mechanism they've added. And IMO it made Legion one of the top 3 expansions with TBC and Wrath. But the lack of any innovation during BfA and SL has made M+ incredibly stale.

[vsb]

I'm sure there have been other threads adressing this issue but I wanted to pose a question.

Was Mythic + a game system mistake ?

My reasoning behind this is simple. As WoW has grown older and the gaming climate has been changed with many outside systems like Discord, etc, taking over player to player communication, the game has become less social over time.

The mythic plus system basically rewards groups that stay together longer to get as many runs done as possible to maximize rewards, etc.

However, to stay together longer you have to have a group comprised of members who know their role and are willing to stay and work with others for an extended time period.

That being said WoW has grown to encourage faster, low-commitment type players who just want to get in and get the run over with and get out as fast as possible. Back in the days of Wrath it wasn't uncommon for a good group of even random players to run several Heroics together. Nowadays that's an anomaly.

So looking back was the Mythic + system, which only really caters to the minority of players, and is also the focus of many toxic behaviors an ill conceived plan?

Yes, M+ is a mistake.

I'd prefer:

1. Limited difficulty curve, something that ends at +10.

2. Gear with ilvl < normal raid.

3. No timer nonsense.

[schwarzkopf]

I feel like mythic + shouldn't of been used for gear.

Why pick on Mythic+ for that, why not remove gear from raids and have raids only give cosmetic rewards ?

Raids are very niche in WoW because of how difficult it is to get into a raid group, M+ are accessible and increasingly difficult as you go to higher reward tiers.

[Razorice]

It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.

Agree.
M+ gives me something to do everyday, and I'm happy for it.

[Soikona]

Why pick on Mythic+ for that, why not remove gear from raids and have raids only give cosmetic rewards ?

Raids are very niche in WoW because of how difficult it is to get into a raid group, M+ are accessible and increasingly difficult as you go to higher reward tiers.

I like this idea. With good balance, the raids can be all about skill and not over gearing it!

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Agree.
M+ gives me something to do everyday, and I'm happy for it.

Of course you would, it’s a good place to be toxic.