How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[potis]

The main difference between the progression(hardcore) and casual player is time at their disposal.

Enough with this, its a mentality, not a time variable, stop using this excuse.

How is a guy playing 40 hours per week, doing LFR on 5 characters, a casual, and the guy raiding HC only for 4 hours + 30mins for M+15 and maybe 2 more hours/weeks for other crap, a hardcore player with this dumb time variable logic?

The problem that this discussion is up again for the 200th time is that people want to be rewarded for the type they can -put- into the game, or in a better way of saying things, its the aging group of players of WoW, that does not like that their life has taken over, and the game has to change to cater to them instead of accepting life moves on and if the game doesnt fit you anymore, time to move on.

Yes, many of the arguments of the players is that they want to be rewarded the same way other games do it, simply because they do the basic things, when WoW was never that type of game, because some did move on, and found what they want in another game, but they dont want to play that game, they want the same structure in a game that never had it.

The game has been catering to every type of player for years now, the problem is, when type of player A, cant accept that he is now a type of player B, for random variables of his life, game has to change so he can feel as a type of player A again.

- - - Updated - - -

I assume that most people of those 100M haven't even made it to the endgame.
Because i find it unreasonable to assume that Blizzard has had 100M unique subscribers within ~5 years, but no more than 12M within a single quarter.

I don't see how this is somehow conflicting.

If i recall, they reported 120+ (or was it 140?) million accounts by the end of Cata/after start of MoP, you can easily assume the last 8-9 years, this has reached 200m accounts.

Yet the first day sales, including pre-orders which is a new record every time is ~4mil and the average reports of every expansion was 10-12mil players the first month.

This is what people dont understand and why Blizzard stopped reporting subscribers, (negative press is the main reason) because it stopped mattering.

People do not sub permanently, people come and go, if Legion was 12mil subs the first month, and it had 12mil subs the second month, i can guarantee at least 500.000 of those were different subs of people not renewing cause they just came back to check the game for a bit as they do every expansion, and people returning cause they heard good things about the expansion.

Anyone that cant understand this, can also not understand why reporting subs does not even matter anymore.

I am saying all this, cause at some interview after Wotlk, that supposedly was the peak of those 12mil subs, they reported something like near 60% of those 12mil subs, wasnt even level 70 when game was at its "peak".

In other words, all assumptions and shit data on random forums, dont matter, they know better.

[Triceron]

Except, thats exactly what the person I was reply to wrote? Take all gear from mythic raids and anything past +15.

That wouldn't be 'taking away' gear since he's proposing a new system that doesn't award that in the first place.

Just like recent-past progression systems not having Tier gear is not 'taking away' Tier gear from players. It's opting for an alternative system that rewards things differently.

Progression can instead be rewarded in different ways that aren't merely through stat-upgrade gear, such as prestige customizations and cosmetic gear and mounts. This is how some other games handle end-game content, and it works well for both as a means of progression and a means of collection. The really badass looking gear comes from hard modes, but they don't need to provide any major statistical jump from what is already obtainable in the game. The gaps wouldn't be some huge jump between LFR and Mythic, for example. Challenging content doesn't need to be built around the stats.

[ONCHEhap]

And you wonder why people bash this game lol. I love that FF is finally taking WoW's lunch. So well earned. This is what Blizzard's toxic culture has created, a general disdain of people.

Max ilvl gear isn't obtainable by casuals until an entire major patch later than it comes out, and even then,you can only get one item a week by doing the alliance raid. And even then,you'll never get max ilvl weapons until the next step of relics come out (and those usually take extremelylong to farm),and you won't get a full set of BiS either without doing savage, just ilvl adjacent gear.

So your argument "FFXIV is better because casuals can get bis" is complete nonsense,and that's coming from someone who likes FFXIV more than WoW

[Deadite]

The only person who gives a shit what you are wearing is you.

The trouble with that is that the game literally assign you a number. People then set a number that is acceptable and if you are above it then you are in. If you are below it then they won't even give you a second look.

[Kharnath]

I'm casual AF and I actually find previous expansions more entertaining (entertainment is why I play the game) than current content grinding.

Yes I am still grinding BFA, LEGION & WOD, but I'm having so much fun because I out gear it all which hardly makes it feel like a grind and more like an exploration/adventure.

Korthia... I need to force myself to do because I know it's my only path to gear progression, I'm so glad I got my legendary from Torghast and never need to go back! I got to level 4 Korthia and found out I can't get to lvl5 gear unless I have lvl6 rep waaaat!?! Gone.

I just want BiS so I can play the (current content) game completely which is what makes past expansions attractive to me (out geared) because I can play them completely and privately at my own time and leisure.

I mean, I paid blizzard as much $ as the rest of you but I don't have the physical time to play like most of you?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

That wouldn't be 'taking away' gear since he's proposing a new system that doesn't award that in the first place.

Just like recent-past progression systems not having Tier gear is not 'taking away' Tier gear from players. It's opting for an alternative system that rewards things differently.

Progression can instead be rewarded in different ways that aren't merely through stat-upgrade gear, such as prestige customizations and cosmetic gear and mounts. This is how some other games handle end-game content, and it works well for both as a means of progression and a means of collection. The really badass looking gear comes from hard modes, but they don't need to provide any major statistical jump from what is already obtainable in the game. The gaps wouldn't be some huge jump between LFR and Mythic, for example. Challenging content doesn't need to be built around the stats.

Okay so let me get the straight.

You want to remove gear rewards from Mythic raids or 15+s or whatever.

So people whose idea of fun, and are currently doing that, wouldn't have access to gear rewards anymore.

Those rewards do no exist anymore.

That is taking gear away, just as I said.

In your idea, you are taking away progression, and I don't know how you don't see that. This is just cutting off the nose to spite the face. Its damaging something with no real benefit. I have no idea why we can't somehow add progression without taking something away.

[Triceron]

Okay so let me get the straight.

You want to remove gear rewards from Mythic raids or 15+s or whatever.

So people whose idea of fun, and are currently doing that, wouldn't have access to gear rewards anymore.

Those rewards do no exist anymore.

That is taking gear away, just as I said.

In your idea, you are taking away progression, and I don't know how you don't see that. This is just cutting off the nose to spite the face. Its damaging something with no real benefit. I have no idea why we can't somehow add progression without taking something away.

If the ilvls go up, then there should always be alternative systems to reach that same gear. If there is content that is even more challenging beyond that, then it can easily be a cosmetic or customization reward.

We're used to all types of progression reward in WoW be related directly to stats, and that is really just a matter of expectation of WoW, one that would need to change and adapt to any new system. Just like how content used to be built around Warforging and Titanforging where it does not today. That's not taking any progression away from players, that is simply changing the system to no longer rely on those types of stat-based progression. You STILL have progression gear that relates to the content you are doing.

And I'm not particularly talking about current game/expansion capping anything. Anything in the current expansion, leave it as is. So just to be clear, I am not particularly talking about capping out any current content. I am talking about systems for the future. I interpretted the other poster's response to imply the same to future content, but if he was specifically talking about current content then my mistake.

[Ekis]

I mean, I paid blizzard as much $ as the rest of you but I don't have the physical time to play like most of you?

You don't pay for the outcome, you pay for the access, which we all have. If all it took to get BiS gear was playing $15 then everybody would be kitted the moment they purchased a subscription and we wouldn't be having this discussion as it'd be an entirely different game where gear had no impact whatsoever.

It's up to you to maximize your purchase but what you've mentioned is not necessarily an inherent flaw of the game. In essence, that's a player-based issue and not a game one.

- - - Updated - - -

Enough with this, its a mentality, not a time variable, stop using this excuse.

How is a guy playing 40 hours per week, doing LFR on 5 characters, a casual, and the guy raiding HC only for 4 hours + 30mins for M+15 and maybe 2 more hours/weeks for other crap, a hardcore player with this dumb time variable logic?

The problem that this discussion is up again for the 200th time is that people want to be rewarded for the type they can -put- into the game, or in a better way of saying things, its the aging group of players of WoW, that does not like that their life has taken over, and the game has to change to cater to them instead of accepting life moves on and if the game doesnt fit you anymore, time to move on.

Yes, many of the arguments of the players is that they want to be rewarded the same way other games do it, simply because they do the basic things, when WoW was never that type of game, because some did move on, and found what they want in another game, but they dont want to play that game, they want the same structure in a game that never had it.

The game has been catering to every type of player for years now, the problem is, when type of player A, cant accept that he is now a type of player B, for random variables of his life, game has to change so he can feel as a type of player A again.

EXACTLY. People need to understand that not everything is meant for them. Whether it be changes in life or lack of simple interest, not everybody will hit the pinnacle of "success". It's really a life lesson that people could actually apply to any game or hobby really.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

If the ilvls go up, then there should always be alternative systems to reach that same gear. If there is content that is even more challenging beyond that, then it can easily be a cosmetic or customization reward.

We're used to all types of progression reward in WoW be related directly to stats, and that is really just a matter of expectation of WoW, one that would need to change and adapt to any new system. Just like how content used to be built around Warforging and Titanforging where it does not today. That's not taking any progression away from players, that is simply changing the system to no longer rely on those types of stat-based progression. You STILL have progression gear that relates to the content you are doing.

And I'm not particularly talking about current game/expansion capping anything. Anything in the current expansion, leave it as is. So just to be clear, I am not particularly talking about capping out any current content. I am talking about systems for the future. I interpretted the other poster's response to imply the same to future content, but if he was specifically talking about current content then my mistake.

It doesn't matter if its current content or next patch or next expansion, in this case, you are removing a way to gear for a large number of players, and I don't think it will add anything remotely positive. Mythic gear already comes from raids and M+.

I don't see the point to this change, when adding more things to do outside of raiding or mythic should be the answer, since some players don't want to do that for whatever reason. But that should not come at the expense of current players or progression paths.

Whats worse is that putting cosmetics or customization behind "challenging content" then: A) players that don't do that content will still complain and expect those rewards, and B) once many players get their M+ cosmetics, they will likely just stop doing it.

[Adamas102]

C'mon, tell someone that a game failed to keep about of 90% of its playerbase, they're not going to say "well, sounds like they did fine, but they could've done better", most will respond with "So, the game's pretty much dead, right?".

If someone were to assume that then I would clarify for them. I can't think FOR you, but I can certainly correct you when you jump to the wrong conclusion.

Either way, it's not relevant. I'm not judging WoW by how many subs they had or how many they lost. I'm using that number to suggest that a more casual friendly game might have retained more players.

The crux here is that these two points have little to no overlap, you can't cite on side the fact that they've lost 90% of their players, arguing the lack of "casual endgame" is the reason, while completely disregarding the massive factor that a sizeable portion of those by all likelihood never even made it to that point.

To go all the way back to my first post: "I'm sure there's a variety of reasons those people came and went, but to say that "casuals have ruined the game" is probably one of the most idiotic quotes of this thread."

So no, I didn't argue that the lack of casual endgame was the sole reason (though that is indeed ONE of the things I would point to). Seriously, I'm done correcting your misunderstanding/misrepresentation of my posts.

[Kharnath]

game where gear had no impact whatsoever.

But... Isn't that a universally good thing? Cause then the game is skill based not gear based? I'm confused

Edit: Rewards being: mounts, pets, items for pets, transmogrifications, titles, tabards, shirts and other cosmetic items?

[Kralljin]

I'm using that number to suggest that a more casual friendly game might have retained more players.

And i'm telling you that number is meaningless in the context of endgame because the vast majority of those 90% were filtered way before that.

To go all the way back to my first post: "I'm sure there's a variety of reasons those people came and went, but to say that "casuals have ruined the game" is probably one of the most idiotic quotes of this thread."

...okay?
Where did i say this?

How is this somehow relevant to this discussion?
I am telling you that citing the number of accounts created and the peak subscription numbers as proof that WoW would've retain a significant amount of those players if more casual endgame content would've been present is just completely fallacious.

And you keep dancing around this, you cannot highlight that a significant portion of these players would have actually sticked to the game if this was present, it's just pure guesswork on your part.

You completely disregard:
-The vast majority of those players already quit during leveling / trial phase
-They might just quit once they're at cap, because they're not interested in endgame progression
-The Don't like the content that is presented (after all," more casual content" and "that casual content that's actually good" are two different things
-The fallout of those resources being funneled somewhere and loss of players on the other end

[Ekis]

But... Isn't that a universally good thing? Cause then the game is skill based not gear based? I'm confused

Edit: Rewards being: mounts, pets, items for pets, transmogrifications, titles, tabards, shirts and other cosmetic items?

No, not really. People like being rewarded for the effort they put in, as that also has a value (intrinsic or extrinsic). Much like how you feel you should have the BiS gear while not having the time to put in for it, if the reward (in this case, gear) was diminished, you likely wouldn't care about having it because at that point it would have no value.

Again, that's not an issue with the game itself, that's just an issue of your priorities. This sounds harsh but definitely not intended this way, but you don't value WoW enough to devote time to getting the best out of it. No different than a person who'd like to play football and is probably good at it but would rather not train or devote time to being scouted to do it for money.

[Kharnath]

No, not really. People like being rewarded for the effort they put in, as that also has a value (intrinsic or extrinsic). Much like how you feel you should have the BiS gear while not having the time to put in for it, if the reward (in this case, gear) was diminished, you likely wouldn't care because at that point it would have no value.

But....gear you use currently to acquire stat's is always guaranteed to be useless (inevitable not immediately) beyond its cosmetic value to the player.

Where as the intention of cosmetic items as the foundation for rewards is eternal for the player regardless of expansion in fact I'd wager that the cosmetics get more valuable with time where as our gear only gets less valuable to us statistically with time?

[Ekis]

But....gear you use currently to acquire stat's is always guaranteed to be useless (inevitable not immediately) beyond its cosmetic value to the player.

Where as the intention of cosmetic items as the foundation for rewards is eternal for the player regardless of expansion in fact I'd wager that the cosmetics get more valuable with time where as our gear only gets less valuable to us statistically with time?

Because having it at the time it's necessary also grants a sense of prestige. Mounts do little in the way of changing that, since they all do the exact same thing just look different: why do any content outside of the mount/cosmetic you like? Game's dead after a certain point if say, I liked X mount that dropped in MoP and design of the gear. Why play the game at that point?

I'd rebut with a question: why do you need or want BiS if the cosmetics you like are easily obtained by just waiting for the current content to become trivialized or the next expansion coming out? Why purchase any current expansion when you can pretty much get everything you need by simply waiting a few years and getting it at a discount/free with just a subscription?

The likelihood is that you want to play the game now, and obtain the best the game has to offer now a.k.a. FOMO. Otherwise, the above mentioned is a readily applicable solution to what you're discussing.

[Kharnath]

Because having it at the time it's necessary also grants a sense of prestige. Mounts do little in the way of changing that, since they all do the exact same thing just look different: why do any content outside of the mount/cosmetic you like? Game's dead after a certain point if say, I liked X mount that dropped in MoP and design of the gear. Why play the game at that point?

I'd rebut with a question: why do you need or want BiS if the cosmetics you like are easily obtained by just waiting for the current content to become trivialized or the next expansion coming out? Why purchase any current expansion when you can pretty much get everything you need by simply waiting a few years and getting it at a discount/free with just a subscription?

The likelihood is that you want to play the game now, and obtain the best the game has to offer now. Otherwise, the above mentioned is a readily applicable solution to what you're discussing.

Why can't they add in a lot more mounts?

You - All mounts do same thing just look different)
Me - All gear do the same thing just look different?
Ex: You're a healer, your gear will help you heal better.

Without current content gear I can't do the older content because I'd just have no gear then period.

[Tsarez]

I don't understand why this has to be an either/or question?

How about just creating enough new content to keep all those types of players engaged and interested?

[Ekis]

Why can't they add in a lot more mounts?

You - All mounts do same thing just look different)
Me - All gear do the same thing just look different?
Ex: You're a healer, your gear will help you heal better.

Without current content gear I can't do the older content because I'd just have no gear then period.

Again, why do you need or want BiS to do any of that? You can most certainly do older content without BiS gear, hell I log in and farm older content on my level 50 Demon Hunter in BFA blues.

Your issue is FOMO. Mounts or other collectibles only do so much but even then do not offer the kind of prestige or social standing having current BiS gear does. Mounts are all equal and provide the same speed unless you have the skill to obtain current mounts locked behind an achievement, which gear also helps provide. You can't say the equivalent regarding gear (i.e. mounts don't provide an added benefit to obtaining gear), otherwise you wouldn't need it entirely thus weakening your stance here.

Again, a proposed solution, from one casual to another, would be to just wait. From what I gather with your posts, you don't care about doing the current content and therefore have no need for what the current content provides, so why not wait until it's trivialized?

EDIT: I'd argue that we're using mounts as an example here because it's likely not something that'd affect you about outside of the ones you're using or the ones you could only obtain by doing the content when it's relevant. Out of the hundreds of mounts in-game, I'm certain there are ones you no longer use or do not have even though they've been out for years. I could be wrong though.

[Triceron]

It doesn't matter if its current content or next patch or next expansion, in this case, you are removing a way to gear for a large number of players, and I don't think it will add anything remotely positive. Mythic gear already comes from raids and M+.

So we're talking about two different things and lumping them together as if they were the same.

The idea of changing the system to not rely on the importance of gear must be reflected in three major changes.

1- The Gear itself should be less important, meaning that stat progression should be less of an incentive as a means of a reward. That means progression, in theory, should come from alternative, lucrative means; such as a Prestige reward that only Mythic Players can achieve that no one else can obtain, but is not 'a new tier of ilvl' above what is already obtainable. An example of this system is Guild Wars 2, where gear and stats technically plateau at a certain point, and progression becomes more of a cosmetic-driven achievement system, or a grind towards alternative progression systems like for Skill points (which are tied to your character, not to gear).

2- The Content has to change to reflect less importance on gear as a means of progression. This means having a Mythic Raid that can be accomplished through wearing baseline standard end-game gear which anyone can obtain, but requiring skills and knowledge of mechanics to properly beat. Mechanics would more complex and require more than simply 'needs better gear' to accomplish.

3- The Community has to be on board with accepting new types of progression that aren't tied to stat upgrades on gear. There really shouldn't need to be any barrier of entry of having to obtain a baseline set of epics before jumping into the hardest content. People need to accept a WoW where Gearscore is a thing of the past in order for this to really be fully accepted.

One benefit of this would be dissuading all the boosting, which happens because content is built around stat thresholds where content becomes easier as you obtain better gear. Boosting exists because content is built around statistics-based progression, and once players are thoroughly geared they can over-compensate enough to bring in a completely useless pug into 'hard' content. If the mechanics themselves were difficult and required skill through baseline end-game gear that everyone gets, then we're talking about actual challenging content that players can't 'overcompensate' in order to bring in some dead-weight player with lots of cash.

If stats did not progress while the mechanics in Mythic remained, then we're still talking about the same level of challenge that many top players would aspire to tackling. As for rewards on top, it would be the same cosmetic differences in gear we already have (different tints) and on top, there could be special Prestige rewards that only Mythic players can obtain.

This is kind of the way it works in many other games. The difficulty of the content changes but your character does not, while the rewards scale to your difficulty but without having to be through stat boosts. If you beat the boss in easy mode, you win the green shirt. If you beat them on the hardest difficulty, you get the shiny armor and your sword glows and sparkles. Your prestige shows your accomplishments. And with a baseline of stats through all the content, this means we don't have to move forward into the next big raid with a ton of power creep. And if we ARE looking for some means of power-creep to show progression, then it could be alternatively presented through personal raid buffs that dynamically scale with each boss you beat and as you continually beat them over and over. Raid trash gets easier, Raid bosses can be easier on repeat killings, and there can be risk-reward options for turning off the buff like a chance at getting a rare mount drop.

Since end-game stats are normalized to a certain point, there is no 'gear score' to discriminate players against. It would be a matter of skill and accomplishment. Instead of gearscore, it would more likely be based on achievement and Prestige. This helps in the case of players who know the content but want to do it on an Alt. There's no need to farm up 12 different complete Heroic Epic sets just to run and swap characters to do Mythic, for example. If you can do the content, you can do the content. The progression can easily be tied to your account, rather than be gated by your gear.

I don't see the point to this change, when adding more things to do outside of raiding or mythic should be the answer, since some players don't want to do that for whatever reason. But that should not come at the expense of current players or progression paths.

Whats worse is that putting cosmetics or customization behind "challenging content" then: A) players that don't do that content will still complain and expect those rewards, and B) once many players get their M+ cosmetics, they will likely just stop doing it.

I agree that there should always be more things to do outside of raiding and mythic. Don't get me wrong, none of this is a jab at purposefully limiting top-end content for the sake of the casuals. It's simply about lessening the importance of gear, and putting it back into the skills of the player. It's about having progression be tangential, rather than purely statistical.

If you want to swing your E-Peen, you would still be able to wearing your fully Mythic model gear that only those who beat Mythic content can obtain.

And yes, people WILL complain about it, because people generally don't like change, and we're talking about a massive systems and meta change to the game. That's kinda how things are. Any change will always be met with complaints. Look at every instance of changes that Blizzard has made to the game and tell me that there were zero complaints over removing TitanForging or Legendary powers or even shitty systems like the old Talent trees. There's ALWAYS going to be complaints about changes, no matter how good or bad they could be.

And if players stop doing content? Then so be it. Casuals have already been doing that for ages, and I don't see WoW having died because of it.

Think of it this way - The way the current system works in reality is the higher the stats you get, the easier content gets. And that's the problem with the mentality of wanting to obtain better gear. It's wanting the game to get easier. Progression has fooled you into thinking you want to earn the better gear because it makes you better, when in reality you want the better gear because it makes content easier. It means you're getting gear so that you can fuck up more often without getting out-right punished in the hard content. And frankly, that's kind of a backwards thing to apply to gear since the gear you get should really be more of a badge of honor for beating the most difficult content that ANYONE can attempt, but only the most skillful can achieve. We can still have the progression systems in place that make content easier as you beat it (raid buff concept above) that doesn't have to be tied directly gear. By detaching the importance to gear, we also have the added bonus of not having numbers scale up so drastically every expansion, to the point where we hit millions of numbers and have to go through another stat-crunch every few years.

As an alternative progression system, any personal raid buffs can be scaled directly to Raid content and Raid Progress. For example, each time you beat a certain boss, you get a progressing personal buff (that can be toggled off) that makes that boss slightly easier the next time. And by easier, it might not be 'nerfing' the boss entirely, but rather general fail-safes that take some pressure off repeat attempts, like a tank not having to interrupt the boss' ability every time, or a certain insta-kill debuff bringing you down to 20% rather than outright killing you if it happens to go off. Honestly, we can get pretty darn creative with having rewards centered around the content, and still allowing players to get the full prestige of obtaining new gear. It just isn't tied to stat progression that ultimately power-creeps into all other content or reach numbers so high that we need a level crunch every few years.


Top-tier Progression raiders often times will be able to beat entire Raids with the majority of their players still geared in last-Tier's Epics. There are two main reasons to get gear with higher stats - Either to meet a specific 'gear check' (Patchwerk in Naxx) or as a means to generally make all content easier. And if we're talking about keeping gear-checks in the game, then this type of progress can easily be added through alternative Raid Progression systems that are tied directly to players, rather than to gear. But to be frank, I think gear-checks are an antequated system that shouldn't be required for players to progress. It should always be down to interesting mechanics, not gating through stat-thresholds that most raiders consider as baseline before being able to push forward.

[Kharnath]

Your issue is FOMO.

I don't think so, I mean I don't view the gear in the manner that you're speaking "prestigious BiS" I view the gear as a TOOL and I want better 'tools' to make my time more enjoyable/easier.

I'd of thought that if I was current content FOMO then I'd be living in Korthia and seeking guilds to join to raid whatever the current progression raid is? That's how I would react I think as a FOMO that and having my pre raid gear be the BiS it could possibly be prior to stepping into a raid to inc my chances that a guild leader sees me and recognises my current progress like way back in TBC when I got recruited into a progression guild.

The ONLY FOMO that comes to my mind is... N'zoth mount and Mythic Ny'alotha leather gear which I have acquired some of through due diligence and patience leading randoms.