[TV] Neil Gaiman's The Sandman

[Koriani]

You are thinking of white wolf I'm talking about making the exact aame character black much like people ignored that miles morales existed and pushed to change Peter's race instead

Actually I was referring to the actual Black Panther - mentioned in this post over on the LOTR thread >>

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53598911

As well as post 904 the page before it.

Where they (the other two posters who know more than me ) specifically identify a "half white jewish guy" IS Black Panther. NOT White Wolf.

I'm not thinking of anyone, I never read the comics. I'm only taking the point from there, where I too found out that it is actually canon that Black Panther has been a white man, in the comics. Meaning that it was never 'intended' by the writers to be an entirely, or only, black-race-based- position. Its right there. That its 'ok and doesn't mean anything.'

Now, people would absolutely bitch and boycott - but people are stupid, and they suck. But no one could claim it was because it was 'disrespectful to the source material' as people are here about this show, and as they are in the LOTR thread - presenting that 'logic' to defend their stance. They can use other 'logic' just not that.

Kinda like when Stephen King said it was fine by him that Roland, an 'always white' character in his books, be played by Idris Alba. Just like people here saying Gaimen is wrong about his own interpretation of his own works in that 'death can be whatever'. If people want to use dead authors to defend their stance that dwarves can't be black because Tolkien never wrote it that way; then you have to listen to the live authors when they actually APPROVE the switch. Or the truth of the racism is exposed- sorry. Pick another logic; because the author is telling you - you are wrong. And of ANYONE able to have the defacto opinion - its the creator of the world.

We can still not like it, we can still disagree. But it should give at least some of us pause to examine our own 'reasons' for these objections when the AUTHOR is ok with it. Humans hate change automatically. But we should still examine that resistance when it happens.

And for a philosophical concept given physical form - that changes depending on the looker - then being white, black, orange, or a tiger in space are all equally 'representative' of that concept. And the author has doubled-down on that idea. Hate change because change - but you should also push yourself to grow and get past it and evolve, as a human.

[Xath]

Actually I was referring to the actual Black Panther - mentioned in this post over on the LOTR thread >>

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53598911

As well as post 904 the page before it.

Where they (the other two posters who know more than me ) specifically identify a "half white jewish guy" IS Black Panther. NOT White Wolf.

I'm not thinking of anyone, I never read the comics. I'm only taking the point from there, where I too found out that it is actually canon that Black Panther has been a white man, in the comics. Meaning that it was never 'intended' by the writers to be an entirely, or only, black-race-based- position. Its right there. That its 'ok and doesn't mean anything.'

Now, people would absolutely bitch and boycott - but people are stupid, and they suck. But no one could claim it was because it was 'disrespectful to the source material' as people are here about this show, and as they are in the LOTR thread - presenting that 'logic' to defend their stance. They can use other 'logic' just not that.

Kinda like when Stephen King said it was fine by him that Roland, an 'always white' character in his books, be played by Idris Alba. Just like people here saying Gaimen is wrong about his own interpretation of his own works in that 'death can be whatever'. If people want to use dead authors to defend their stance that dwarves can't be black because Tolkien never wrote it that way; then you have to listen to the live authors when they actually APPROVE the switch. Or the truth of the racism is exposed- sorry. Pick another logic; because the author is telling you - you are wrong. And of ANYONE able to have the defacto opinion - its the creator of the world.

We can still not like it, we can still disagree. But it should give at least some of us pause to examine our own 'reasons' for these objections when the AUTHOR is ok with it. Humans hate change automatically. But we should still examine that resistance when it happens.

And for a philosophical concept given physical form - that changes depending on the looker - then being white, black, orange, or a tiger in space are all equally 'representative' of that concept. And the author has doubled-down on that idea. Hate change because change - but you should also push yourself to grow and get past it and evolve, as a human.

He's mixed African and Jewish not white either way the point was changing the character of T'Challa to a white dude not just the person wearing the costume of the alter ego. Hence why I talked about people thinking Miles Morales isn't good enough. Also it was white tiger my bad on that I haven't been as much into super heroes since I started getting into fantasy.

An author can freely say and do whatever they want doesn't mean fans have to like the depiction. Much like Marvel okayed whitewashing the ancient one and presumably Shirow okayed casting ScarJo as the Major and Obata okayed the whole American Death Note awfulness. Fans don't have to go support changes they aren't a fan of and in many cases it's not due to racism it's because fans grow to like the character in that incarnation and the willful massive departure takes away that appreciation for the character. Sometimes it works out fine other times it becomes at least partially responsible for the work in question bombing in it's new space.

[Endus]

An author can freely say and do whatever they want doesn't mean fans have to like the depiction. Much like Marvel okayed whitewashing the ancient one and presumably Shirow okayed casting ScarJo as the Major and Obata okayed the whole American Death Note awfulness. Fans don't have to go support changes they aren't a fan of and in many cases it's not due to racism it's because fans grow to like the character in that incarnation and the willful massive departure takes away that appreciation for the character. Sometimes it works out fine other times it becomes at least partially responsible for the work in question bombing in it's new space.

The problem is those fans should take a little bit of personal responsibility and just accept that maybe they just don't like a thing. They aren't owed anything by the creators or the original author. If they don't like it, they're free to not spend money on it, and that's about as far as it goes. It isn't even legitimate criticism; it's just loudly stating "I NO LIKE THING". Declaring you're not a fan while simultaneously insisting you are a fan is fucking weird.

If something is legitimately bad, like the Avatar: TLA live-action movie, then it'll get critically panned and won't make money and that's how this works. If it's a critical success and makes a ton of money, the "fans" need to realize that, just maybe, this wasn't made for them, and they're not owed that in any way whatsoever.

Also, Scarjo as the Major was contextually fine; she has what's called a full-body prosthesis; that isn't actually her original body/form. Motoko can be entirely Japanese, ethnically speaking, and look like ScarJo, because it's a prosthetic. Heck, she can theoretically trade them out. And indeed; in the film she is Motoko; she was born ethnically Japanese. That's why those complaints fell flat; the character was accurate, the "fans" apparently didn't understand who the character even was. It's not a perfect film, and we can debate where it doesn't hold up to the manga/anime, but ScarJo's casting really isn't the problem, there, not unless you can point to something specifically wrong with her portrayal.

[Xath]

The problem is those fans should take a little bit of personal responsibility and just accept that maybe they just don't like a thing. They aren't owed anything by the creators or the original author. If they don't like it, they're free to not spend money on it, and that's about as far as it goes. It isn't even legitimate criticism; it's just loudly stating "I NO LIKE THING". Declaring you're not a fan while simultaneously insisting you are a fan is fucking weird.

If something is legitimately bad, like the Avatar: TLA live-action movie, then it'll get critically panned and won't make money and that's how this works. If it's a critical success and makes a ton of money, the "fans" need to realize that, just maybe, this wasn't made for them, and they're not owed that in any way whatsoever.

Also, Scarjo as the Major was contextually fine; she has what's called a full-body prosthesis; that isn't actually her original body/form. Motoko can be entirely Japanese, ethnically speaking, and look like ScarJo, because it's a prosthetic. Heck, she can theoretically trade them out. And indeed; in the film she is Motoko; she was born ethnically Japanese. That's why those complaints fell flat; the character was accurate, the "fans" apparently didn't understand who the character even was. It's not a perfect film, and we can debate where it doesn't hold up to the manga/anime, but ScarJo's casting really isn't the problem, there, not unless you can point to something specifically wrong with her portrayal.

If I said that green was green you would say it's purple I'm not playing word games with you. People wanted an Asian actress preferably Japanese for The Major because that's how she was portrayed in the anime. It's really that simple. Fans have no obligation to "shut up" only weirdos try to shut other people up for being passionate about media. Also you are assuming things that get panned by fans are making money. Solo bombing was a direct response to TLJ. TLJ made money because people went into it with cautious optimism the fallout didn't happen until the next movie and of course in merchandising. Wheel already got displaced by Reacher which has maybe half the budget if that they aren't sharing and usually they share big budgets and basically no star power in terms of casting. It's almost like if you make a faithful adaptation of a beloved work it tends to do very well.

Fans can talk all that they want and it's weird to try to say they can't.

[Endus]

If I said that green was green you would say it's purple I'm not playing word games with you. People wanted an Asian actress preferably Japanese for The Major because that's how she was portrayed in the anime. It's really that simple. Fans have no obligation to "shut up" only weirdos try to shut other people up for being passionate about media. Also you are assuming things that get panned by fans are making money. Solo bombing was a direct response to TLJ. TLJ made money because people went into it with cautious optimism the fallout didn't happen until the next movie and of course in merchandising. Wheel already got displaced by Reacher which has maybe half the budget if that they aren't sharing and usually they share big budgets and basically no star power in terms of casting. It's almost like if you make a faithful adaptation of a beloved work it tends to do very well.

Fans can talk all that they want and it's weird to try to say they can't.

They can talk. They don't have a legitimate complaint. They're whining that a new production is not adequately stroking their nostalgia. They want "more content", but simultaneously "no new/different content". It's impossible to satisfy.

Get back to me when you have legitimate criticisms of a property. Whining that a genderless, raceless, speciesless incarnation of a concept is being portrayed by a black woman in the upcoming Sandman series is not a legitimate criticism. It's just racism.

[s_bushido]

Scarjo as the Major was contextually fine

/shrug My irrational hatred of Johansson in particular was why I was annoyed by that casting decision. There's usually a way to rationalize away most gender/race swaps anyway...to the point that getting upset about it is meaningless.

Avatar was a perfect storm of "how to make a shitty adaptation" and should basically be a lesson to anyone thinking about doing it. The hilarious whitewashing was just icing on the cake.

[Xath]

They can talk. They don't have a legitimate complaint. They're whining that a new production is not adequately stroking their nostalgia. They want "more content", but simultaneously "no new/different content". It's impossible to satisfy.

Get back to me when you have legitimate criticisms of a property. Whining that a genderless, raceless, speciesless incarnation of a concept is being portrayed by a black woman in the upcoming Sandman series is not a legitimate criticism. It's just racism.

Again no it isn't it's like complaining that green lantern in dc movieverse is Hal Jordan instead of Kyle Rayner who the current generation grew up with. People want what they grew up with. Stop looking for racism in everything and your life will be so much better

[Endus]

Again no it isn't it's like complaining that green lantern in dc movieverse is Hal Jordan instead of Kyle Rayner who the current generation grew up with. People want what they grew up with. Stop looking for racism in everything and your life will be so much better

Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner are two different people.

Death is the same person, here. The entire complaint is whining that the actress is black, rather than white. When it is not relevant to the character and is perfectly canonical for her anyway.

[Ivanstone]

People want what they grew up with.

Sandman isn't a kids book. How are you growing up with it? Hell I'm 50 and at no point was it possible for me to grow up with it.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Stop looking for racism in everything and your life will be so much better

It's actually very simple.

If you believe that the most important thing about Death of the Endless is that she is white...that's fucking racist.

[Makabreska]

Sandman isn't a kids book. How are you growing up with it? Hell I'm 50 and at no point was it possible for me to grow up with it.

Friday 13th or Elm Street movies are also not kids movies, yet plenty of teens grew up with it.

[Xath]

It's actually very simple.

If you believe that the most important thing about Death of the Endless is that she is white...that's fucking racist.

It's actually very simple she has multiple incarnations but one is seen as her primary one and if you google death sandman is what 90% of the images will be. That isn't fucking racist.

- - - Updated - - -

Sandman isn't a kids book. How are you growing up with it? Hell I'm 50 and at no point was it possible for me to grow up with it.

I grew up reading all kinds of stuff read silence when I was 12 most good parents don't restrict their kids reading.

[jonnysensible]

is every thread in this forum just the same few posters crying about black people existing in things that arent out yet lmao.

hey xath what do you think of denzel as macbeth?

[Xath]

Nevermind that blackness and whiteness are totally different things. Whiteness as a concept is exclusionary, and changes with the times to suit regional or national demographics.

Let's cut to the quick with a more telling hypothetical for these guys...

How would you feel if a half black guy got cast as Cyborg? How about if they got cast as a Superman?

If they look like Cyborg in the comic sure if they look like superman in the comic also sure. Calvin Ellis would be a refreshing take on the character. If you mean someone who looks nothing like the comic then no just like it was no for The Ancient One.

- - - Updated - - -

is every thread in this forum just the same few posters crying about black people existing in things that arent out yet lmao.

hey xath what do you think of denzel as macbeth?

Macbeth has been reimagined a thousand different ways at this point depends how it is done. If it's just medieval eu plus denzel wouldn't make sense if they do something more transformative could be interesting. Macbeth has been done as a freaking lion after all.

[Endus]

If they look like Cyborg in the comic sure if they look like superman in the comic also sure. Calvin Ellis would be a refreshing take on the character. If you mean someone who looks nothing like the comic then no just like it was no for The Ancient One.

I already pointed out how this bitching has absolutely nothing to do with "looking like the comic".

Since the character's taken on that kind of appearance in those very same comics. As I linked above.

So it's more like complaining that they have Sam Jackson playing Nick Fury. Despite Sam Jackson literally being the explicit character model for Ultimates Fury.

[Xath]

Welcome to the bread and butter of this subforum!

Oh hey it's the person who trolls constantly. You do understand I would be extremely annoyed if Steel was cast as a white dude right same with Cyborg since someone brought it up.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

It's actually very simple she has multiple incarnations but one is seen as her primary one and if you google death sandman is what 90% of the images will be. That isn't fucking racist.

Yes it is...because you're saying that the most important thing about the character is her skin colour.

It's fucking racist. End of.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Wait. Let me get this straight. People are against... the Black Death? HAHAHAHAHA..

[Xath]

Yes it is...because you're saying that the most important thing about the character is her skin colour.

It's fucking racist. End of.

Death's original appearance in combination with personality is largely considered iconic and was her base revert for decades.

Make new characters or actually promote the ones that already exist instead of constantly race bending. The Sam Jackson inspired Nick Fury is an example of making a new character even though they have the same name they are different characters in different universes. I would honestly love a Calvin Ellis Superman movie. Could actually tread new ground for once and be faithful to the comics.

Most people who grew up reading sandman have a view of a specific iconic look for death that was heavily inspired by Cinamon Hadley as being her base. Now maybe Kirby just knocks the performance out of the water or they heavily diverge from the series like Lucifer who knows. Just saying wanting an iconic look doesn't equal being racist.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Death's original appearance in combination with personality is largely considered iconic and was her base revert for decades.

Make new characters or actually promote the ones that already exist instead of constantly race bending. The Sam Jackson inspired Nick Fury is an example of making a new character even though they have the same name they are different characters in different universes. I would honestly love a Calvin Ellis Superman movie. Could actually tread new ground for once and be faithful to the comics.

Most people who grew up reading sandman have a view of a specific iconic look for death that was heavily inspired by Cinamon Hadley as being her base. Now maybe Kirby just knocks the performance out of the water or they heavily diverge from the series like Lucifer who knows. Just saying wanting an iconic look doesn't equal being racist.

Naww man. Gaiman's okay with it. So it's not a problem. Sorry you'd disagree with her creator like that, but you're in the wrong here.