What next for Liquid/Limit?

[sensei-]

STOP THE COUNT! STOP THE COUNT!

In all seriousness, though, I expect them to be a contender again next time. There's too much money on the line for them not to compete seriously. Given how entry-tier raids are often somewhat easier, the time advantage may well play in their favor, too. So they could very well win.

Scripe said he won’t even take a part in the next race unless US server reset advantage is removed.

[Aedruid]

I'm torn. I agree there were some great bosses (Anduin/Rygelon/Jailer), but with the race going on so long, there were multiple points where I just found myself bored & waiting for them to get done with a certain encounter & onto the next one. I don't know if having 8/11 HC open a week earlier really added to that feeling of "gee this has been going on far too long," but I'm curious to see if they do it again.

It was still entertaining, though!

Their execution was sloppy because one or two people kept making accidental mistakes. If it were cleaned up a little, then they would have been able to push on

[tomten]

Most WF guilds have private logs and top parse means literally nothing 99% of the time especially since PI came back. I guarantee if a Limit raider joined your group they would top DPS by a good amount.

Who said anything about a random pug? I said there exists people who are better than them, not that I or some random pugs are, quite the difference... And private logs are mostly only a thing for progression.

[zhorteye]

This tier ultimately proved that the raid was overtuned and ultimately, they didn't have the commitment and desire to equal 3 other guilds and 2 other continents. Will they return better than ever? will this be the downfall and we need another super raiding team from NA to pick up and bring the fight to EU and OC?

Hopefully, they come good.

I'm not sure why people are talking about liquid as if they "gave up" or "couldnt commit" - The raiders get to the venue a week before the event to prepare.. by the time they reached the point where they couldnt stay anymore, they had been at the venue for over 25 days..
This is a long time to be away from family, friends, girlfriends, boyfriends, etc.

When Max and the rest of the leadership team made the decision to Pack up and go home, the players were completely burnt out, and they had already lost the race as they were not progressing at all.

This raid tier is simlpy a fluke in the system, and we arent going to see a raid in the near future be as hard or last as long.. not even blizzard wants that to happen again..

You gotta remember, its "Race to world first" not "Marathon to world first" .. None of them expected it to last as long as it did..

Liquid isnt going anywhere and they are by no means less of a raid team than they were before the race started..

Echo and limit are still the only 2 guilds in the world making up their own tactics.. the rest of the guilds in the top10 copies the best tacts from both teams and progresses that way (the closest we'll get is Method)

The raiding scene is still going to be NA v EU and thats not gonna change unless they go global release including asia..

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Scripe said he won’t even take a part in the next race unless US server reset advantage is removed.

Do you have a post or a clip of this? - Echo will compete even without US Server reset advantage removed. as it has for the LONGEST TIME not mattered in the long run.. Unless a boss dies ON reset day it literally doesnt matter.

[Infernoxas]

This tier ultimately proved that the raid was overtuned and ultimately, they didn't have the commitment and desire to equal 3 other guilds and 2 other continents. Will they return better than ever? will this be the downfall and we need another super raiding team from NA to pick up and bring the fight to EU and OC?

Hopefully, they come good.

Max quoted on his stream that they dont care about any place other than 1st. Once they new Echo was taking the win, they made the call and decided to head home. Everyone was mega burnt to a crisp.

Source: https://youtu.be/001Tfzvr6h0

[Rusken]

Almost every time I tuned in to Liquid's stream this race, it seemed like they were chatting and having a little banter, even while progressing on the harder bosses. Echo on the other hand, seemed a lot more focused during the entirety of the race.

There's this weird idea that Liquid isn't focused because they're bantering and enjoying themselves. Max has said 100 times that's how they play well. If they're not chatting and having fun then the morale of the whole group drops and they don't play as well. It's just different group dynamics. Echo is quiet and focused, Liquid is chatty and focused.

IMO it was their event that ruined their chances. They didn't have contingency plans for if it ran long and ended up dealing with tons of logistical issues like rebooking flights, moving hotels, people having to go home for family etc. If they'd just cut the event after the first week and gone home, they'd likely have been in much higher spirits for the last few days and had a better chance of winning. I'm not saying they'd definitely have won for any reason, just that they'd have been playing on their own terms without so much outside stress affecting them.

[Biomega]

Scripe said he won’t even take a part in the next race unless US server reset advantage is removed.

Probably in jest, as they're well aware a global reset is unlikely to ever happen for various reasons.

[Radaney]

The raid tier tuning was great, I think. Happy to see that things don't get steamrolled.

So, they'll return next expansion for a new race.

Why is hard good? You realise raid participation is the lowest ever right?

[alturic]

Why is hard good? You realise raid participation is the lowest ever right?

Some of us think you should actually have to put effort into things and not be handed participation trophys.

It's actually interesting, why is hard good is the same as why is easy good. Isn't that the point of the different difficulties? Different difficulties for different skill levels?

[Eli85]

Why is hard good? You realise raid participation is the lowest ever right?

Hard difficulty does not steer people away from raid content.

[Makabreska]

Max said that the raid length wasn't actually the issue. The issue was the fact that they didn't know that. If they knew, they would not arrive at the venue week in advance and would cut 2h of raid per day.

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Why is hard good? You realise raid participation is the lowest ever right?

I mean, Mythic is supposed to be hard and therefore cleared by a fraction of the player base. Hence it remained difficult through all those years. If you want easier content you got Hc and lower. And if Mythic is too hard? Nerfs. As we had plenty of them already in current raid.

[Stickiler]

Hard difficulty does not steer people away from raid content.

From the evidence we've been given, that's wrong. Ghostcrawler famously said that most people just quit, instead of trying harder, if they make content harder than it was.

[Eli85]

From the evidence we've been given, that's wrong. Ghostcrawler famously said that most people just quit, instead of trying harder, if they make content harder than it was.

You're missing a lot of context. Ghostcrawler was talking very specifically about heroic dungeons, you know, casual and gearing content. When it comes to raiding, the game offers four difficulty tiers. One tier being "too hard" does not steer people from raids; they simply go down to the tier that suits them. If they choose not to raid, it's because of time commitment, quality of other players, or whatever else.

There has been no evidence presented that equates a significant number of people not raiding and the difficulty of raids.

edit: To add, Ghostcrawler's comments were from Cataclysm. Even if it were applicable to raids, it's so far out of context now. In 2022, where Elden Ring sold as many copies as it did, it's absolutely laughable that hard difficulty drives people away.

[sensei-]

Probably in jest, as they're well aware a global reset is unlikely to ever happen for various reasons.

Not in jest and not true. He was very clear he felt the game is rigged and it frustrates him that on EU server you always play from behind (the one thing Max’s crew clearly could not handle at all after Echo outplayed them and moved to 1st place).

He probably also knows something to make a statement like that. Probably an acknowledgment from Blizzard they know the situation is unfair.

[Biomega]

Probably an acknowledgment from Blizzard they know the situation is unfair.

That was never in question. Everyone knows it's unfair, no one ever said it wasn't.

The problem is how to fix it - to which the answer is, you can't; not without severely impacting the experience of the vast majority of average players just so ~100 people can have a slightly more fair race two to three times a year. And that's not a cost that's worth paying.

[Stickiler]

That was never in question. Everyone knows it's unfair, no one ever said it wasn't.

The problem is how to fix it - to which the answer is, you can't; not without severely impacting the experience of the vast majority of average players just so ~100 people can have a slightly more fair race two to three times a year. And that's not a cost that's worth paying.

You're not even just affecting everyone else, you also fuck over the world first raiders. No matter what time of the day you pick, someone is going to be raiding over night instead of sleeping, and sleeping during the day. That fucks with your mental and physical health, and would also make the RWF unfair.

[Zyky]

I think

It wasn't and players weren't happy with the tuning, including Liquid. Several bosses were(and still are) overtuned and it took Blizzard too long to address specific problems.

As per the question, there have been players in Liquid addressing that they're dissatisfied with how Liquid threw the tier and ended world 5th, partially because of guilds bugging Jailer and getting a kill before them, but none-the-less dissatisfied in general with the performance of the guild. Liquid might very well fall apart after screwing up so badly this tier.

[Relapses]

Liquid might very well fall apart after screwing up so badly this tier.

This is definitely not happening.

[Biomega]

This is definitely not happening.

Did your favorite raider in the whole wide world tell you that?

[Relapses]

Did your favorite raider in the whole wide world tell you that?

No, it's insanely silly to imply a WF guild with the kind of resources that Liquid has will be disbanding due to circumstances nobody could have predicted. This isn't Team Aster.