Why does wow's community come off as so entitled?

[Glorious Leader]

Do you ever feel like you should just stop typing after saying I don't like that but it is true rather then ramble on? I mean before reciting the problem while waving your hands in the air saying you cant comprehend it...

I'll assume you didn't take the time to read a single thing I wrote. Do you ever ask whats the point when you refuse to engage in reasonable and good faith arguments in favor of whatever the above is? I'll try again and address this. Yes I can understand the "problems" that you feel will result from "flooding it with random people of all gear and skill levels". What I suggest is to simple by pass this completely by offering progression from all content.One goal many paths. Thats mostly just a start though. The game needs to be less raid centric overall in my opinion. Despite its historical unpopularity it seems to get all the attention. Tell me again how content with so little participation is somehow where all the game happens and ill show you a game that is deeply casual unfriendly and incredible dated.

[Hctaz]

What I suggest is to simple by pass this completely by offering progression from all content.One goal many paths. Thats mostly just a start though. The game needs to be less raid centric overall in my opinion.

Despite its historical unpopularity it seems to get all the attention. Tell me again how content with so little participation is somehow where all the game happens and ill show you a game that is deeply casual unfriendly and incredible dated.

It would be less raid centric if the only place you could get raid gear was from inside a raid though? Like world quest gear should make you stronger in the open world and I'm fine with that?

The "One goal many paths" idea isn't that great as players will simply do whatever they can to get gear the fastest way possible. Also it makes the game entirely about gathering gear instead of just playing the game. The goal of the game is not to become as powerful as possible, player power is the means to an end. It isn't THE END. You get better gear so you can completely more content more easily.

I don't understand what your end goal here is. You want everybody to run around in identical gear, but for what purpose? What content are they supposed to be completing with said gear?

[arkanon]

I tried to start again recently and people kick you from random heroic dungeons for not having raid gear... Also is there an addon for auto checking achievements or something, because I have been kicked seconds after someone mentioned I didn't have the achievement for a dungeon already. Something like tank has no achieve run will be to slow, then bam kicked.

I have not seen ANYONE kicked from a heroic dungeon for years. I'm sorry but I simply don't believe you.

[WowIsDead64]

You have no legal rights. Read the TOS. All you have the right to is access to the game. Period. Nothing else.

And McDonalds has right to put s**t to their hamburgers, yeah. There is big difference between TOS and reality. Yeah, unfortunately governments refuse to protect customers from game industry frauds and scams, like loot box gambling. But it doesn't mean, that "what isn't prohibited - is allowed" rule works here. So it's not literally illegal do it. It's "illegal". We should be against it and developer, who does it - should be punished by losing customers. And it's so strange, that some people call this "being entitled". Who are they? Just slaves, who are enemies for themselves?

[Linkedblade]

I look at the opposite and don't understand how people can accept the elitistic game that this has become. And the insane requirements that people ask for.

- People asking for Ahead of the Curve for Normal raids
- People asking for Keystone Mastery (+15s) to join +10s
- People asking for full Heroic gear to do Normal raids

etc etc, it's become a joke.

They might be asking for a bit much. But what they're looking for is to make their pug as bearable as possible.

If you're not in a guild, or don't have gold, your only option is to start a group/guild on your own.

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Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

I don't think it's the norm. Most people actually playing the game are enjoying themselves. It's only in wow communities off the game do you see the rampant complaining.

[raz98]

Idk. I guess Im gonna be the devils advocate here, but: probably because the player base has been burned so many times with unfulfilled promises, empty placations, and cheap cop-out tactics like treadmill gameplay and timegating to keep people playing with chores instead of engaging content.
A lot of us have played this game for close to or over a decade. Some people have become disillusioned with Blizzard, and angry that something that has brought them so much joy in the past has become bittersweet. WoW is where I met my best friends, and we're all pretty actively sad with the state of things.

[catseye543]

Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

They come off that way probably because they are.

[cparle87]

It's possible to retain players while rewarding the deserving. WoW was extremely popular during vanilla/TBC/Wotlk, where the difference between rewards on top and low level were much much higher than they are now. So your point is quite bland.

You seem to think that a game that can retain players by giving everyone equal rewards, and it kills the fun for the worse players if good players get better rewards. WoW has never given equal rewards, and there are other games for people who want that.

This. The ilvl and power gap between a guy who only ever does open world and a mythic raider is smaller than it's ever been. You can get double 291 leggos, 252 conduits, full 246 tier, a 246 weapon, and the rest of your stuff 252 without ever grouping or talking or even seeing another person. The most casual content ever.

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Because, you know, players think, that sub fee should mean something in terms of some quality difference from F2P projects. Some people forget, that back in old times the most important sub fee's justification was - "We will always keep F2P/P2W crap away from our game".

We are called entitled and sometimes even insane, but of defending our legal rights is insanity, then yeah, we're insane.

You pay the sub fee to access the game as is. That is the beginning and end of your rights and expectations. Anything more, well, the thread title is quite appropriate.

[Starfals]

Wow community? Have you seen literally every other community? People complain on my youtube videos 24/7 for anything and everything. It's a human race kind of thing and the internet makes it even worse. Anyways, if you think that about the WoW one, better don't go check the Dota 2/LoL ones. It's like a hellish nightmare of complaints.

[WowIsDead64]

You pay the sub fee to access the game as is. That is the beginning and end of your rights and expectations. Anything more, well, the thread title is quite appropriate.

I really think, that people here misunderstand what I say. I don't say, that if I pay, then I have right to demand something. No. But there is nothing bad in being entitled to something and saying "I won't pay for your game, if you won't fix X". Again. It's not F2P game, where "You can't complain, as you get it for free" argument is perfectly viable. So, if devs start to bring some F2P/P2W stuff to their game, then I should have right to ask simple question "Why should I pay, if there is no difference?".

[AcidicSyn]

I am curious. Lots of folks bring up all of the gear that's available to solo* players right now, citing that the game is more friendly to them than ever before. This isn't entirely correct though, it would be far more accurate (I think) to say that the game is more friendly to these players at the end of the expansion, than ever before.

My question: Would anyone reading this take issue if it was like this, not just at the end of the expansion, during/after the last raid, but instead these kinds of systems existed from beginning to end? (This question assumes you are already okay with it existing at all, obviously.)

I believe it would certainly remove much of, if not all, of any perceived "ground" those complaining that the games gearing system isn't friendly to them have to stand on, do you agree?

Its a bit disingenuous to speak as though this "friendliness" is there at the beginning of an expansion, and on a personal note, I don't think it sounds very fun for these players to just come back to a game at the end (PARTICULARLY and perhaps even solely because, blizzard is so willing to cut huge swathes of story content in the middle of an expansion, as proven in shadowlands - this is perhaps where the majority of my sympathy for these players comes from frankly)



* I'm just using solo as the blanket word for the sake of the sentence. Its not exclusively meant to refer to solo players.

[cparle87]

I really think, that people here misunderstand what I say. I don't say, that if I pay, then I have right to demand something. No. But there is nothing bad in being entitled to something and saying "I won't pay for your game, if you won't fix X". Again. It's not F2P game, where "You can't complain, as you get it for free" argument is perfectly viable. So, if devs start to bring some F2P/P2W stuff to their game, then I should have right to ask simple question "Why should I pay, if there is no difference?".

That ties back to your initial claim. That the player base is entitled to having no "F2P/P2W" stuff simply because it's a sub game. I also find it strange that you never actual mention what any of those supposed bad things are.

But again, you pay your sub to access the game as is. Blizz could bring in every dirty scummy predatory practice in existence. Paying a sub does not protect you from that, nor should you expect it to. "That is the beginning and end of your rights and expectations"

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My question: Would anyone reading this take issue if it was like this, not just at the end of the expansion, during/after the last raid, but instead these kinds of systems existed from beginning to end? (This question assumes you are already okay with it existing at all, obviously.)

I believe it would certainly remove much of, if not all, of any perceived "ground" those complaining that the games gearing system isn't friendly to them have to stand on, do you agree

What kind of systems do you mean? You've always been able to get the conduits, legendaries, and gear within a stone's throw of raiding this entire xpac. Even in the first few weeks of the xpac a guy in a mythic raiding guild wasn't going to get his rank 4 lego any faster than a guildless guy who does everything solo. And the outdoor gear scaled up at certain renown levels the same for everyone.

[ellieg]

I am curious. Lots of folks bring up all of the gear that's available to solo* players right now, citing that the game is more friendly to them than ever before. This isn't entirely correct though, it would be far more accurate (I think) to say that the game is more friendly to these players at the end of the expansion, than ever before.

My question: Would anyone reading this take issue if it was like this, not just at the end of the expansion, during/after the last raid, but instead these kinds of systems existed from beginning to end? (This question assumes you are already okay with it existing at all, obviously.)

I believe it would certainly remove much of, if not all, of any perceived "ground" those complaining that the games gearing system isn't friendly to them have to stand on, do you agree?

Its a bit disingenuous to speak as though this "friendliness" is there at the beginning of an expansion, and on a personal note, I don't think it sounds very fun for these players to just come back to a game at the end (PARTICULARLY and perhaps even solely because, blizzard is so willing to cut huge swathes of story content in the middle of an expansion, as proven in shadowlands - this is perhaps where the majority of my sympathy for these players comes from frankly)



* I'm just using solo as the blanket word for the sake of the sentence. Its not exclusively meant to refer to solo players.

I didn't play in 9.1 but I can say 9.0 was just as friendly in terms of gear. You had your covenant gear that you could level up, similar to leveling up cypher gear. Legos u could craft. High ilvl crafted piece. World boss loot. Almost all if not all of the same types of systems u have now

[Aydinx2]

I am basing my qualifications on what the game offers, what makes sense.

Normal mode drops 252 ilvl gear (and a few 259). LFR Drops 239 (and a few 246) If you are purely a raider, it's logical to gear through raids only, and playing M+ should never ever be mandatory for pure raiders. That means, that the highest possible ilvl you can get from doing only LFR in theory is about 240. And if you also do Zereth Mortis, which shouldn't be mandatory for people who only want to raid, you can get about 246ilvl with the catchup gear then.

That means that asking for more than 246 for Normal Sepulcher is absolutely ludichris and madness. There is no plausible way to get higher than that for a raider. And once you reach 252-253ish, meaning full Normal raid, where Zereth Mortis gear can't even help you, there is no plausible way to get higher gear before Heroic, hence 252-253 SHOULD be the requirement to join Heroic, anything above that, again, is madness to ask for Heroic.

Yet, just now, the LOWEST I could find, after searching for almost 2 hours, is 260 requirement for heroic and many ask for 270+. That is COMPLETE insanity. HOW IN EVERYTHING THAT IS HOLY am I suppose to get 260ilvl without doing Heroic? The community is crazy.

Stop playing then.

[AcidicSyn]

That ties back to your initial claim. That the player base is entitled to having no "F2P/P2W" stuff simply because it's a sub game. I also find it strange that you never actual mention what any of those supposed bad things are.

But again, you pay your sub to access the game as is. Blizz could bring in every dirty scummy predatory practice in existence. Paying a sub does not protect you from that, nor should you expect it to. "That is the beginning and end of your rights and expectations"

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What kind of systems do you mean? You've always been able to get the conduits, legendaries, and gear within a stone's throw of raiding this entire xpac. Even in the first few weeks of the xpac a guy in a mythic raiding guild wasn't going to get his rank 4 lego any faster than a guildless guy who does everything solo. And the outdoor gear scaled up at certain renown levels the same for everyone.

I'm talking about the ZM specific stuff everyone keeps citing. To be clear, and this is for @ellieg too, I do agree that the statement "Its better than ever before" is technically correct. Though historically, it's not been quite as good as it is right now, I mean hell....I am told you can get tier without raiding in ZM, never seen that before.

If you played in 9.0, was the covenant gear relative to what you could get from, lets say vault compared to now? (I mean was the gap back then similar to what the gap is now comparing covenant and castle nath with ZM and and latest raid). Sure you could level it up, but how much? Were you able to level it up from the get go or did that come later?

I have very little experience with how this system was set up for shadowlands. Judging just from posts here, I gather pretty much two scenarios:

Scenario A: SL is vastly more friendly to players who do not care for organized group content in terms of player power through gear progression than any expansion before it, and became even more so with each patch, culminating in the current system in ZM.

In which case my question is for those who do enjoy organized group content: would it bother you if the current iteration (we'll focus on the tier thing) was available from go rather than progressively increasing over time?

Scenario B: SL is vastly more friendly to players who do not care for organized group content in terms of player power through gear progression than any expansion before it, and became even more so with each patch, culminating in the current system in ZM but this is not enough to make <current_user> happy.

In which case my question becomes: Why isn't this enough? What doesn't feel good about getting gear from ZM? Is it the upgrading the same gear that's not fun? is it the content you do to acquire that gear that's not fun? Do you event agree with the scenario premise that its better than it was before? Why/why not?

[ellieg]

I'm talking about the ZM specific stuff everyone keeps citing. To be clear, and this is for @ellieg too, I do agree that the statement "Its better than ever before" is technically correct. Though historically, it's not been quite as good as it is right now, I mean hell....I am told you can get tier without raiding in ZM, never seen that before.

If you played in 9.0, was the covenant gear relative to what you could get from, lets say vault compared to now? (I mean was the gap back then similar to what the gap is now comparing covenant and castle nath with ZM and and latest raid). Sure you could level it up, but how much? Were you able to level it up from the get go or did that come later?

I have very little experience with how this system was set up for shadowlands. Judging just from posts here, I gather pretty much two scenarios:

Scenario A: SL is vastly more friendly to players who do not care for organized group content in terms of player power through gear progression than any expansion before it, and became even more so with each patch, culminating in the current system in ZM.

In which case my question is for those who do enjoy organized group content: would it bother you if the current iteration (we'll focus on the tier thing) was available from go rather than progressively increasing over time?

Scenario B: SL is vastly more friendly to players who do not care for organized group content in terms of player power through gear progression than any expansion before it, and became even more so with each patch, culminating in the current system in ZM but this is not enough to make <current_user> happy.

In which case my question becomes: Why isn't this enough? What doesn't feel good about getting gear from ZM? Is it the upgrading the same gear that's not fun? is it the content you do to acquire that gear that's not fun? Do you event agree with the scenario premise that its better than it was before? Why/why not?

In 9.0, the cov gear was acquired from the campaign. Every week a new chapter was released. I believe it was 9 pieces total, didn't include jewelry or weapons. But the last quest did give u a token for a lfr level weapon.

Each week, the renown cap would rise, and as it did, so did the total ilvl that u could upgrade ur cov gear too. And your worldquests would scale with renown too. The cov gear after all chapters were complete scaled to 197. 200 ilvl was normal raid. So equivalent to this patch, it would've been at 249 ilvl. Just 1 upgrade rank lower. The world quests I believe scaled up to 197 as well.

I dont recall the ilvl of the items in the cache u got from callings, but I wanna say they were at 200, could be wrong. Maybe only from the epic callings. So between all of the systems, u cld easily hit 197 (249 today). 235 was the rank 4 lego. Don't remember the 1 crafted pieces ilvl.

So technically this patch has very slightly higher ilvl comparisons to max, but it was very close.

I think this amount of ilvl coming from solo play is fine. If it is any higher, it'll start to feel like I am forced to do it as mainly an m+ pugger.

[cparle87]

I'm talking about the ZM specific stuff everyone keeps citing. To be clear, and this is for @ellieg too, I do agree that the statement "Its better than ever before" is technically correct. Though historically, it's not been quite as good as it is right now, I mean hell....I am told you can get tier without raiding in ZM, never seen that before.

If you played in 9.0, was the covenant gear relative to what you could get from, lets say vault compared to now? (I mean was the gap back then similar to what the gap is now comparing covenant and castle nath with ZM and and latest raid). Sure you could level it up, but how much? Were you able to level it up from the get go or did that come later?

I have very little experience with how this system was set up for shadowlands. Judging just from posts here, I gather pretty much two scenarios:

Scenario A: SL is vastly more friendly to players who do not care for organized group content in terms of player power through gear progression than any expansion before it, and became even more so with each patch, culminating in the current system in ZM.

In which case my question is for those who do enjoy organized group content: would it bother you if the current iteration (we'll focus on the tier thing) was available from go rather than progressively increasing over time?

Scenario B: SL is vastly more friendly to players who do not care for organized group content in terms of player power through gear progression than any expansion before it, and became even more so with each patch, culminating in the current system in ZM but this is not enough to make <current_user> happy.

In which case my question becomes: Why isn't this enough? What doesn't feel good about getting gear from ZM? Is it the upgrading the same gear that's not fun? is it the content you do to acquire that gear that's not fun? Do you event agree with the scenario premise that its better than it was before? Why/why not?

Yes, you can get tier without raiding. The creation catalyst can turn any raid, dungeon, Andros, pvp, or sandworm relic piece into tier once a week. They said this'll become more frequent as we go. For a pure soloer you can get a set of 246 sandworn gear and turn it into tier. Oddly the cypher gear is not valid.

In 9.0 the covenant gear could be upgraded to 190 (same as rank 1 legos) when mythic zeros were 184. Once your renown was maxed the outdoor gear from rares, chests, and WQs was around 184 as well.

As for as your scenarios, I'd say you'll have people saying both or either cause people are very varied.

As for your final paragraph, I really don't know. We've had upgradeable gear like being able to upgrade your SoO gear with valor to squeeze out more power, the crafted gear in WoD being upgradeable through the entire expansion, the WoD lego rings being able to upgrade through raid boss kills, and in Legion we could upgrade our Legiondaries.

[Soon-TM]

Particularly the so called "casual CE" players who are just people who want to raid log and do nothing else.

Catering actively to that demographic is what gave us WoD. An excellent expansion for hardcore raiders, complete trash for everyone else.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I dont think WoD was 'catering' to that demo any more than previous expansions. It was just abandoned halfway through to make Legion (and garrisons clearly didn't pan out the way they intended).

[Void Priest]

Which is sad, considering I still go back to my garrison.