Ion saying they "mined out all the lore from WC3" as justification for SL lore

[A Chozo]

thank fucking god they are moving away from warcraft 3 bullshit, we need new stuff. It was always The Legion! The Scourge! The Legion! The Scourge! bleh. They have to try new shit the same way the people of Warcraft 3 had to try new shit, it's normal.

[Lothaeryn]

It's called creative bankruptcy.

/thread

Blizzard has no writers, all of them are basically hacks who bastardize entire narrative scripts handed to them on a silver platter. Decades of writing wasted because someone didn't want to write that story; and instead write their own in the same setting.

Its like someone was handed official control over Star Trek canon and instead of taking the resposibility for it and do the research to ensure the franchise's fantasy (and more importantly, continuity) is not infringed upon they decide to write mary sue levels of fanfiction because thats easier and "more fun" to them.

creative bankruptcy

indeed

[Aucald]

To me, the issue is that's basically re-treading Cataclysm. And to explore Naga in more depth, it's gonna end up being underwater unless you really neuter them. It's just minus Deathwing at that point.

I didn't have an issue with the story of Cata, more the shallowness of its later content. I also found Cata got a bit short-changed due to the work put into the full world revamp, which I think proved an overall distraction from the story as a whole and could be remedied by another focused expansion without said revamp. Also wouldn't be the first time we've re-tread major story elements, with WoD being a kind of TBC 2.0 and even Legion sort of re-treading WotLK tropes to varying effect.

[Lothaeryn]

thank fucking god they are moving away from warcraft 3 bullshit, we need new stuff. It was always The Legion! The Scourge! The Legion! The Scourge! bleh. They have to try new shit the same way the people of Warcraft 3 had to try new shit, it's normal.

Its almost as if Blizzard could have done that at any fucking time and still had the legion and other cosmic threats in the background brewing...

Let not pretend they needed to use WCIII as the basis of lore, they chose that route and stuck with it.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

/thread

Blizzard has no writers, all of them are basically hacks who bastardize entire narrative scripts handed to them on a silver platter. Decades of writing wasted because someone didn't want to write that story; and instead write their own in the same setting.

Its like someone was handed official control over Star Trek canon and instead of taking the resposibility for it and do the research to ensure the franchise's fantasy (and more importantly, continuity) is not infringed upon they decide to write mary sue levels of fanfiction because thats easier and "more fun" to them.


indeed

Not really creatively bankrupt but ok dude, they have writers, just cause it didn't go the way you wanted doesn't mean they aren't writers. This is just petty.

[Eace]

I think a lot of people have their own headcanon on how much weight a storyline should have been given, and to that end, there's literally no way they could objectively please everybody.

Ultimately they took it the direction they did, and some people didn't like it; but this statement would be true no matter what occurred.

It's a symptom of people having too much time to dwell on storylines and imagining their own conclusions to stories. It's common in television shows; they start out popular, but then the amount of energy people spend about trying to come up with their own stories increases past the point of no return, and they get jaded when things don't go their way.

Look at the last few seasons of Game of Thrones, versus the first few. The writing was always the same, it was always C+ level fantasy fluff, but once people started having their theories and getting attached to ideas, the complaints started piling in. Game of Thrones was objectively a 6/10 in terms of story from episode 1, all the way to the end of season 8.

WoW has a similar issue. It was never great writing to begin with, but given enough time, people got attached to certain characters and certain ideas, and when those ideas were challenged, people push back.

The trick is to keep your story short and sweet, and leave people wanting more; like Breaking Bad.

I don't think your comparison holds up. The biggest issue with the final season(s) of Game of Thrones was always the pacing. Whether you like the story or not comes down to personal preference, but the series as a whole suffered because they fit too much material into too few episodes. Which, ironically, is exactly OP's complaint about WoW - going through major plot points (or characters) too quickly.

[Lothaeryn]

Not really creatively bankrupt but ok dude, they have writers, just cause it didn't go the way you wanted doesn't mean they aren't writers. This is just petty.

Petty would be listening to this drivel coming from Hazzikostas and thinking he should be fired. At this point im indifferent to what Blizzard decides to do with their franchises anymore. But by all means continue to defend poor executive and narrative decisions from a multi-billion dollar company.

[Eosia]

them coming back is not the point, the point is that they have been wasted in single patches

It's understandable that people feel this way, but I think people are forgetting some things. Sargeras aside, Kil'jaeden was the Burning Legion. Yet, by the definition you're using, he was "wasted" in the Sunwell. We only get to see him from the waist up and play with him for a few minutes before he's defeated and we check his belt for loot. There were no breadcrumbs like we have with N'Zoth.

Why would N'Zoth "test" us with Uu'nat if all we were going to do was destroy him? But let's set that aside for the moment because it is very possible that it refers to content that was cut from BfA. I will circle back to it though.

Il'gynoth's whispers talk about the Shadowlands if you look at them closely:

When their mistress beckons, nine ravens take flight. Each seeks a prize to earn her favor.

Immediately this jumps out as referring to Sylvanas and the Val'kyr bound to her from her tour of the Shadowlands care of the Jailer when she commits suicide after Arthas' defeat. The Maw-sworn and Maw-aligned Val'kyr all have black wings like a Raven. And after the fall of Arthas, nine of them are left on Azeroth. But each one did Sylvanas a favor. Annhylde sacrificed herself to return Sylvanas after her suicide. Agatha, Arthura, and Dschla sacrifice themselves to resurrect Sylvanas in Silverpine when Godfrey shoots her. Kyra resurrects Derek Proudmoore for Sylvanas in her plan to assassinate Jaina. Aradne claims Andorhal for Sylvanas even though Alliance heroes kill her in the process, but she succeeded. Brynja and Signe both went to Darkshore with Nathanos to raise Night Elves that had fallen, namely Delaryn and Sira. Brynja assists Nethanos in fending off Tyrande, giving Signe time to complete the process, only to have Tyrande kill her when the two risen warriors declare "For the Forsaken". Skyja is speculated to have helped empower Nathanos. It culminates in the Sanctom of Domination where we fight the last three, Kyra, Signe, and Skyja, who are attempting to resurrect the other six.

The golden one claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will bring only darkness.

IIRC, the most common speculation was that this was reference Anduin since he had recently claimed the throne of Stormwind, vacated by the death of his father Varian at the the Broken Shore. But now that we know for sure it was the soul of Argus' unexpected arrival in Oribos that took out the Arbiter, this whisper takes place after the "throne" of the Arbiter has been vacant. Pelegos just claimed that "throne" and he is golden. The crown of light refers to the Crown of Wills which he now wears. So now a golden one has claimed a vacant throne.

We further reinforce this with his telling us about the Nethrazim and the Six Cosmic forces:

The cunning ones kneel before six masters, but serve only one.

In the book Enemy Infiltration - Preface we find in game, a Nethrazim is reporting back to Sire Denathrius. In it the author (I presume it is Tichondrius) mentions the five other cosmic forces: Order, Disorder, Life, Light, and Void. Death isn't mentioned because they originate from the Shadowlands of course and the one master they truly serve, Denathrius, is already taking care of playing Death like a fiddle.

But in that book too the author warns:

The void lords all but welcome us with open arms. They are so preoccupied with their thousand truths that they ignore the lies we sow in their very midst. I believe we can leverage their vast reach to position them as a foil against our other rivals. We remain wary, though. Since they are observant of multiple outcomes, it is conceivable they could anticipate our coming.

And leverage the Void they did. What made Sargeras freak out? Seeing that unnamed world soul totally corrupted by the Void and the possibility of what it would do when it woke up. And where did he get his information about what was going on from? Nethrazim.

Now, to circle back to the "test" with Uu'nat, it goes further back as Xal'atath tells us:

It was here in ages past that the God of the Deep lost a great battle to the God of Seven Heads. But as was so often the case even defeat ultimately worked in N'zoth's favor.

The "God of Seven Heads" is a reference to Y'shaarj. Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver tells you "Our Gods were many, and powerful. We mantid worshiped the seven heads of Y'shaarj." So on what is now the Broken Shore, Y'shaarj and N'Zoth fought each other and N'Zoth lost. But it is this quote, the one about how being beaten by Y'shaarj, brings me back to this "test" in the Crucible of Storms.

N'Zoth was testing us because if we could defeat Uu'nat, then we stood a very strong chance of defeating him. And as Xal'atath stated, defeat actually strengthened N'Zoth's position. He was the "weakest" of the four original old gods, yet he was the last one we contended with and the only one to fully escape his prison since C'Thun and Yogg-saron were defeated inside their prisons of Ahn'Qiraj and Ulduar respectively.

Il'gaynoth also has a hint about Dragonflight too when he says:

Five keys to open our way. Five torches to light our path.

On the surface this could refer to World Trees of which there five of them: Nordrassil on Mt Hyjal, Andrassil/Vordrassil in Northrend, Shaladrassil in Val'Sharah, the unnamed one that should be Un'goro but is only in the Emerald Dream/Nightmare version of it. And, of course, Teldrassil that actually did burn. But it could also be a reference to the five dragonflights when you pair it with a later whisper:

Five lanterns now darkened. The flames they seek will light the Masters' way.

The five dragonflights' "fire" was put out when they sacrificed their powers to destroy Deathwing irrevocably. What's going to happen in Dragonflight? They are going to get some, if not all, that power back since the Titans were restored at the end of Legion and once again occupy their seats and there are watchers on the Dragon Isles. So that may herald another Void incursion on Azeroth where our 3-4 friends might come back to say hi again.

So, while I could definitely see your point about the threat of the Naga, Azshara and N'Zoth are positioned to make very unwelcome returns except this time Blizzard did a much better job of it than they did with Kil'jaeden back in 2.4. But, if you look at it a certain way, that might actually be part of the plan. If you look at the histories of both N'Zoth and Azshara, they have one thing in common... they discard those they don't need. In War Bringers 3, notice how Azshara says nothing about saving the other Highborn that are drowning with her? It's all about her. Her power, her being Queen instead of a servant, etc. She even rubs it in N'Zoth's face that he needs her more than she needs him and he is forced to accept her terms. Azshjara no longer has any real need for the Naga, so she abandoned them and went off in search of another source of power for herself.

And we see N'Zoth discarding tools when he's finished with them. Xavius, Uu'nat. Even King Ymiron who helped spread the Curse of Flesh beyond Northrend when he ordered the degenerate offspring of his Dragonflayer Clan of Vrykul to be killed along with any parents who refused. And he discarded Azshara just as soon as she freed him since he had no further use for her and her duplicity made her dangerous.

[The Stormbringer]

Seems like a really disingenuous response. I seem to remember an interview in BfA asking about if we would see more on the Old Gods, and they effectively said something like they wanted to move beyond old stories and start telling a new ones. So lets be real, this is place they wanted to go with the story and not one where they were forced to go.

Another way to look at that would be saying, "We don't want to use the old lore and setting that already exists. We want to make our own!" And you know what? That's fine, IF you make a different game. Part of the discontent that fans have had is how often the lore changes, especially with retcons. If they want to make something new, fine, but make it a NEW thing without changing something that already exists.

WoW has tons of potential, and it endlessly frustrates people when that potential is wasted so they can make new stuff that gets burned through in no time. Was Shadowlands really worth murdering WC3 and Wrath?

[ChairmanKaga]

Why was what Ion said somehow controversial? They've kinda wrapped up the Legion stuff and now with SL the Scourge/Lich King stuff. It's obvious the game can't remain in some static "in the wake of WCIII" bubble. Hopefully Dragonflight does like Mists and introduces new things and expands on existing ones.

[loras]

https://clips.twitch.tv/SweetExcitedDonkeyBleedPurple-1eYyUnmxoaUWx1Pl

so in the start of the Asmongold interview with Ion, Ion actually says this: "we mined out a lot of the lore and original settings from Warcraft 3 and onwards"... and I'm left baffled at this.

How does he think this when Blizzard wasted Azshara and Nzoth in SINGLE patches when they are characters that are entire expansions onto their own?

Even legion's final patch had so much potential and content for a full expansion - army of the light rebuilding, azeroth invading different legion worlds, Xe'ra, turalyon/alleria backstory, legion's end, more of sargeras than him just showing up randomly at the end, titan revival plot, draenei and argus and so much more.

heck, if BFA wasn't bogged down by Azshara/Nzoth/Sylvanus, there's another full expansion that can properly focus on a Fourth War.

is this seriously something the game director thinks about narrative of the game? that they "mined out" almost everything from OG warcraft so they had to make up all this new stuff for SL? how is he ignoring how much expansion material (stuff directly tied to Azeroth and Warcraft) they wasted in single patches?

I dunno, this just seems absolutely ridiculous for a lead Blizzard dev to say imo. This is really what they think the state of the lore is.

EDIT - think people are bit confused by my title, Ion said "WC3 and onwards" and I probably should have not left that part out of the title, though I was running out of space so I condensed it. Anyways, my point is that it's not just about WC3 as WoW has a lot existing lore outside of WC3 that can be used for content.

Yeah it's weird, if i had to guess it's like they are dumping toxic assets, and since they had all sorts if MeToo and woke stuff going on i think they were / are trying to rebrand WoW into something less likely to draw the gaze of the eye of Woke, as there is a lot of stuff woven throughout the core WoW that is very antiWoke (i am hesitant to list it though, let alone discuss it).

It's a damn wasteful pity too, as many have pointed out.

Maybe the Americans really do need a new Trump presidency, his madness at least had some rhyme and reason to it, and it was limited to those who bothered themselves with it.

[Khaza-R]

Another way to look at that would be saying, "We don't want to use the old lore and setting that already exists. We want to make our own!" And you know what? That's fine, IF you make a different game. Part of the discontent that fans have had is how often the lore changes, especially with retcons. If they want to make something new, fine, but make it a NEW thing without changing something that already exists.

WoW has tons of potential, and it endlessly frustrates people when that potential is wasted so they can make new stuff that gets burned through in no time. Was Shadowlands really worth murdering WC3 and Wrath?

I think of it more that they wanted to create their own legacy on the franchise the way that others did before them. And that is a fine goal to have but you still have to respect the source material the fan's passion for it. They clearly did not do that in Shadowlands. In fact, much of their new lore (Crown of Domination for instance) seems to spite the previous storylines. That will leave a bad taste in the mouth of any fan.

I am fine with them doing something new in 10.0. In fact, I prefer it given their handling in Shadowlands of WC3 lore. But they have a lot of work cut out for them if they want to restore their trust from the fanbase.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The truth is you probably don't want them to mess with the classics. They end up like Jaina. A husk that moves though the expansions that really doesnt do a lot.. doesnt say a lot.. doesnt really mean a lot to anyone anymore.. just there to get mad.. sad.. happy.. open a portal and poof out to force the narrative along.

[cparle87]

I don't begrudge them for moving on from WC3 in the sense that they can't really hold onto it forever, but I also agree that they plowed through a lot of material in a truly short amount of time, to the overall detriment of the overarching narrative.

"A truly short amount of time"? WC3 is 20 years old and WoW is 18 years old. How long do you think they can keep playing the same material?

[Iheartnathanos]

I think it was just an awkward and hamfisted way of saying "we're trying to move on from WC3" when it comes to Shadowlands and future WoW expansions. A way of saying that WC3 lore is, at this point, a bit played out and that they need to envision new stories and new material in order for WoW to move forward into new story arcs.

It’s a really weird thing to say when you consider that we haven’t really used WC3 lore since Wrath. Does he count Old Gods and the Legion, which underpin the entire mythos, as WC3 lore?

[Aucald]

"A truly short amount of time"? WC3 is 20 years old and WoW is 18 years old. How long do you think they can keep playing the same material?

I'm mostly referring to the manner in which the Legion, Sargeras, and N'Zoth (although he's not really WC3 material) were dealt with in Legion and BfA, respectively. Especially since those three forces fundamentally underpin all of WoW's expansions up until this point. There was plenty of content left to cover, as well, any and all could've been easily scoped out into future stories.

- - - Updated - - -

It’s a really weird thing to say when you consider that we haven’t really used WC3 lore since Wrath. Does he count Old Gods and the Legion, which underpin the entire mythos, as WC3 lore?

The Legion was an important part of WC3 since it was a Legion invasion (with the Scourge acting as proxies) that WC3 was ultimately about. Similarly, the Old Gods were sort of introduced in WC3 as well, which had both faceless ones as well as a "Forgotten One" in lower Azjol-Nerub which appears to be an early form of the C'Thraxxi.

[Eosia]

I'm mostly referring to the manner in which the Legion, Sargeras, and N'Zoth (although he's not really WC3 material) were dealt with in Legion and BfA, respectively. Especially since those three forces fundamentally underpin all of WoW's expansions up until this point. There was plenty of content left to cover, as well, any and all could've been easily scoped out into future stories.

As I pointed out in the long post I linked to above though, we have breadcrumbs to N'Zoth's return. I compare it against our fun with Kil'jaeden back in 2.4 where he's sucked back into the Sunwell leaving just his belt for us to check for loot. Nothing really is spoken of about how this wasn't the end of him, etc. Whereas with N'Zoth Xal'atath and Il'gynoth both talk about the return of N'Zoth and the Void beyond his "death" in 8.3. Like how on what is now the Broken Shore, N'Zoth got into a fight with Y'shaarj and lost. Yet Xal'atath talks about how defeat works in N'Zoth's favor.

[The Stormbringer]

I think of it more that they wanted to create their own legacy on the franchise the way that others did before them. And that is a fine goal to have but you still have to respect the source material the fan's passion for it. They clearly did not do that in Shadowlands. In fact, much of their new lore (Crown of Domination for instance) seems to spite the previous storylines. That will leave a bad taste in the mouth of any fan.

I am fine with them doing something new in 10.0. In fact, I prefer it given their handling in Shadowlands of WC3 lore. But they have a lot of work cut out for them if they want to restore their trust from the fanbase.

Yeah, well said. I guess the problem I have is when the thing they want to add requires making such dramatic changes, ala Shadowlands.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

This is something I've been saying since Shadowlands was announced. Nobody cares about NuBlizzard's original stuff like the Shadowlands or the Light vs Voids storyline. Nobody cares about NuBlizzard's new original characters like the suramar lady or the highmountain girl or whatever. The new writers suck and can't get us invested in their stuff. We cared about the old stuff because the writers back then were good and got us invested in it. As bad as BFA was in execution, it still had characters and factions I was still invested in from the old days. Now that NuBlizzard has discarded that, I have no reason to care about the story going forward. Covenants - brand new player factions - were a conceptually cool idea, but Blizzard didn't get me to care about them. It's also hard to care when the Covenants are being thrown away come the next expansion.

[ChairmanKaga]

Yeah, well said. I guess the problem I have is when the thing they want to add requires making such dramatic changes, ala Shadowlands.

I think if they seeded more stuff about the Jailer for a few expansions before SL it wouldn't be such a mess. (of course this requires they had thought of the Jailer before which it doesn't feel like they did). Mists succesfully riffed on things that stretched back through existing lore like Old Gods, Titan facilities, the Zandalari etc.