10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Penegal]

But they do give loot and allow you to continue if you go over enrage timer AND kill the boss.

Moreover they do not force you to kill previous boss if you fail, you can just go again.

And vast majority don't even see enrage timer.

M+ timer is not even close to enrage timer in raids.

Because a few guilds managed to do it with planning for that doesn't make it a good example. Just that it's possible. You also get loot if you repeatedly die and chip at the enemies in a M+ way after the timer has expired. Not really a good point

They don't force you to kill the previous bosses because there's a weekly lockout. You don't have one on mythic plus.

They don't see it because they're insanely overgeared. They're not playing at the minimum level of gear required. They're playting at gear cap or overgearing lower difficulty modes by miles. Throw in people with the minimum gear level that is required for the encounters and you'll see that a lot of them will hit enrage timers. The vast majority of players lose a lot of DPS when playing and are far from maximizing the output thier character is capable of.

Of course it isn't. It's the absolute opposite - after the timer runs out, the dungeon becomes easier because you get help from the npc that spawns. The entire point was that it was "stressful". You also have levels to M+, unlike raids. You can always run a lower level if the timer is too mcuh for you and you can't do it if you want to keep running mythic raids.

[Lolites]

if there just was a pve content that doesnt have timer (at least not visible) and offers the same (actualy better) gear as m+ so you wouldnt have to run those...

[Eazy]

Timing is what makes them good and challenging.

Non-timed dungeons are going to be a huge wall and some of them will last >2hours, because casuals will be trying to kill first boss dozen times.

M+ is fine as it is.

What about this:
Epic dungeons (+15 difficulty)
No timer
Queueable
Same rewards as +15 level

M+ same as now

What about epic raids?
Same difficulty as heroc
No enrage-timers
Queueable
Same reward as heroic

... sounds just as bad.

[Azharok]

if there just was a pve content that doesnt have timer (at least not visible) and offers the same (actualy better) gear as m+ so you wouldnt have to run those...

You mean like raids ?

[kaminaris]

Because a few guilds managed to do it with planning for that doesn't make it a good example. Just that it's possible. You also get loot if you repeatedly die and chip at the enemies in a M+ way after the timer has expired. Not really a good point

Its not "few guilds", literally anyone can kill boss after enrage timer. Just stop dps at 0.2%, spread, wait for enrage and kill afterwards.
In M+ however you don't get to "proceed". Loot alone doesn't make it even remotely similar since your progress is "rolled back" (worse than stopped).

They don't force you to kill the previous bosses because there's a weekly lockout. You don't have one on mythic plus.

There is zero correlation, you can join the same key but from some other person. So no, miss again. Just wasted time and even more wasting time if you want to push your own key back to where it was.

They don't see it because they're insanely overgeared. They're not playing at the minimum level of gear required. They're playting at gear cap or overgearing lower difficulty modes by miles. Throw in people with the minimum gear level that is required for the encounters and you'll see that a lot of them will hit enrage timers. The vast majority of players lose a lot of DPS when playing and are far from maximizing the output thier character is capable of.

Miss again, even in world first race, seeing enrage while everyone is alive is rare. In top 100+ just doesn't happen.
While in M+ it happens all the time to miss the timer at almost all non trivial key levels.

Of course it isn't. It's the absolute opposite - after the timer runs out, the dungeon becomes easier because you get help from the npc that spawns. The entire point was that it was "stressful". You also have levels to M+, unlike raids. You can always run a lower level if the timer is too mcuh for you and you can't do it if you want to keep running mythic raids.

It doesn't matter if current dungeon "becomes easier", for weekly bingo ticket you can slap some fast 15s and be done with it.
For people that want to push its even worse since its basically spitting in face while saying "go back to school noob" and rolling back your progress. Its the only game mode that literally punishes you for trying. Timer is never "too much" - its non argument. People tend to get better when they try something but instead in M+, they are being punished for trying.

[Lolites]

You mean like raids ?

that was precisely my point

[chiddie]

you mean bad players with no drive to do anything? you're probably right.

I mean players who don’t like how actual party content is organized and do not partake into it.

[Azharok]

Why not?

Oh I already play another game, don’t worry, WoW has nothing to offer to dedicated casuals.

what the hell is a dedicated casual player ?

- - - Updated - - -

I mean players who don’t like how actual party content is organized and do not partake into it.

kinda defeats the purpose of the game if you do not wish to participate in group content. It's in the genre's name "MMO".

[Penegal]

Its not "few guilds", literally anyone can kill boss after enrage timer. Just stop dps at 0.2%, spread, wait for enrage and kill afterwards.

You're grasping at straws here. The point of an enrage timer isn't about hitting it on purpose just so you can kill the boss while it's "enraged". I can also purposely deplete a key and complete it? What's your point? In M+ you can absolutely continue after the timer has ran out. What is stopping you? If you're unable to kill the boss without any sort of enrage or timer then that's on you, not on the timer that ran out.

In M+ however you don't get to "proceed". Loot alone doesn't make it even remotely similar since your progress is "rolled back" (worse than stopped).

Explain how your progress is lost. Do you suddenly forget what you've done once you've exited the dungeon? The point of a M+ run is to complete the entire dungeon. Not part of it. Raids have separate encounters. It's the same. Just like you have 15 minute bosses in some cases (albeit rarely) you have dungeons that take 30-45 mins. Just because the dungeon is longer than a raid boss that requires the coordination of 20 people and the execution of many more mechanics in a much shorter period of time doesn't suddenly make a M+ special because of its length. Some bosses have more mechanics than the entirety of a dungeon with its trash. You get to practice this dungeon from base mythic to whatever level you can get to. It's incomparable because dungeons are a meme until they start basically one-shotting you. Something which most people complaining in this thread have never and will never experience. Not to mention, no one is forcing you to exit the dungeon and "rollback" your progerss.

There is zero correlation, you can join the same key but from some other person. So no, miss again. Just wasted time and even more wasting time if you want to push your own key back to where it was.

This makes no sense. Explain, please. If you fail in a M+, no one is stopping you from puling the boss or the trash pack again. No one. It's your choice to give up or continue. The timer is there because you shouldn't be wiping. Not to stop you from wiping. Just because you leave the dungeon and restart it is somehow an issue? Separate leveling of a key you've completed is kind of annoying, yes but that's beside the point. It would make things less annoying if after a failed key you're asked if you want to do the same level or lower by one. However, that should happen after 15s. That would also introduce more leaving of dungeons for the slightest issue as well. It's fine as it is because removing it would likely cause more harm in the general populace than having it.

Miss again, even in world first race, seeing enrage while everyone is alive is rare. In top 100+ just doesn't happen.
While in M+ it happens all the time to miss the timer at almost all non trivial key levels.

Lol, top 100+ guilds have a shit ton more gear than top 2 or top 5 guilds. They're not playing the same game. What do you even mean by that? Of course it doesn't happen because these people know how to play the game and have loads more gear than the people that did it first.

Missing the timer happens because non-trivial keys start at more than +20. Especially after the first patch. Anything below that is just bad play from one or more people of the group. +20s are easily completable week 1 of a new m+ season. If you're gonna go with the good players not hitting enrage, I'll give you the good players doing M+. 15s are memeable with a group of 3-4 coordinated people. Boosts used to happen with a 4-man group with the 5th player AFKing. It's not that hard.

It doesn't matter if current dungeon "becomes easier", for weekly bingo ticket you can slap some fast 15s and be done with it.
For people that want to push its even worse since its basically spitting in face while saying "go back to school noob" and rolling back your progress. Its the only game mode that literally punishes you for trying. Timer is never "too much" - its non argument. People tend to get better when they try something but instead in M+, they are being punished for trying.

Lol, that's plain bullshit. You can try everything you want in anything above 10 - there is no change from there aside from a numerical one. No one is asking you to push above a 15 (20s are for portals you'll only use this expansion and a negligible dps increase from conduits). It's on a want basis. Find a stable group and do it, not a random pug if you get offended by someone yelling at people for no reason. It's not rolling back your pgoress because if you can comlete a dungeon on a 15, you should be able to complete it on a 16. Some incremental changes may need to happen with pulls etc. There are enough ways to test that. No one is forcing you to restart the dungeon if you fuck up a pack. Your pgoress isn't being rolled back unless you decide to roll it back.

Anyone can complete almost any key if they have enough time. That's why there's a timer - to differentiate the better players from the worse ones. It's just not fun for everyone involved. It's the same with raids. You have a week to complete the raid, it resets whether you want it to or not. You have hall of fame for the good players and you have CE for the worse ones.

[Lathspell]

Timing is what makes them good and challenging.

Non-timed dungeons are going to be a huge wall and some of them will last >2hours, because casuals will be trying to kill first boss dozen times.

M+ is fine as it is.



What about epic raids?
Same difficulty as heroc
No enrage-timers
Queueable
Same reward as heroic

... sounds just as bad.

Enrage timer isn't the same as the m+ timer. Making non timered 15's available through the queue would not hurt key pushers at all and it would help a lot of people who can't get invited into keys and don't want to build their own groups. In regards to raiding I would suggest merging LFR and Normal and make it queueable or guild groupable. Heroic and Mythic should stay as they are, except Mythic should have the same lockout system as Heroic.

[Kehego]

Enrage timer isn't the same as the m+ timer. Making non timered 15's available through the queue would not hurt key pushers at all and it would help a lot of people who can't get invited into keys and don't want to build their own groups. In regards to raiding I would suggest merging LFR and Normal and make it queueable or guild groupable. Heroic and Mythic should stay as they are, except Mythic should have the same lockout system as Heroic.

nah

play a different game or take medicine for your autism or something.

[Iain]

World of Warcraft balances player strength through ability cooldowns. These ability cooldowns set against a timer mean players have to think carefully about when and how to use the valuable cooldown skills. If you remove this timer, then players can exploit this constraint by saving up their cooldowns for every single mob. Moving at a snail's pace through an instance allows you to have much easier fights, not because you no longer have to rush, but because you're able to use more powerful tools in combat.

[Dudenoso]

It's the same with raids. You have a week to complete the raid, it resets whether you want it to or not. You have hall of fame for the good players and you have CE for the worse ones.

I would consider returning if they removed the timer on M+ and made part of the rewards weekly locked. Having a timer has never made me appreciate any videogame level... ever.

Fucking hate big groups and the time commitment neccessary for raiding.

then players can exploit this constraint by saving up their cooldowns for every single mob. Moving at a snail's pace through an instance allows you to have much easier fights, not because you no longer have to rush, but because you're able to use more powerful tools in combat.

Sane players (assuming the rewards are capped at a balanced level) would alternate cooldowns between pulls to keep a good time anyway, assuming non-infinitely scaling. They can keep the timer for bragging rights or attach optional/fluffy rewards to it.

[Iain]

Sane players (assuming the rewards are capped at a balanced level) would alternate cooldowns between pulls to keep a good time anyway, assuming non-infinitely scaling. They can keep the timer for bragging rights or attach optional/fluffy rewards to it.

But by qualifying the non 'sane' approach as optional you also brick your own argument, after all, running against a timer in mythic+ is also an option that 'sane' players don't have to commit to.

However, the rewards make you feel compelled to run Mythic+ against a timer despite your distaste for it. This same compulsion applies to running mythic+ at a snail's pace. By being able to perform better at this pace, players are able to get better rewards, and in their turn will find access to groups and guilds that set this as an item level requirement.

Either the 'meta' is that you rush against a timer and get the rewards, or the 'meta' is that you slowly push with full ability cooldowns without a timer.

[Recovery]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Timed dungeons aka mythic plus isnt for casuals.. That's kind of the point. You have normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, and mythic 0 that should be fine for "casuals". Mythis + is literally what the name calls it... mythic PLUS. Meaning Mythic not for casuals PLUS difficulty PLUS timed.

[Hyperaffe]

I love the timer, makes people very rarely go afk during a dungeon and keeps up the action with fast pulls. Just how i like to play the game.

[Lolites]

Making non timered 15's available through the queue would not hurt key pushers at all

key pushers? no, but casuals? yeah, they would het a hit...
most people wouldnt run low keys when going for long haul +15 gives better reward...
i mean if you cap rewards for nontimed dungeons at normal (M+9) raid gear, sure, otherwise its just easy gear

and hell, if you want to do +15 without timer, you literaly can do that right now... as for queu m+15... oh yeah, i can already see that, getting random people, two minutes in someone throwing tantrum and leaving, people mentaly not capable to even do +10 and geared for even lower... that would be great...

[Nitedrifter]

Timed dungeons aka mythic plus isnt for casuals.. That's kind of the point. You have normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, and mythic 0 that should be fine for "casuals". Mythis + is literally what the name calls it... mythic PLUS. Meaning Mythic not for casuals PLUS difficulty PLUS timed.

I agree, I don't think this is for casuals at all. Plus everything else you listed is spot on. 75% of this game is directly made for casuals to have some form of game play, from collecting mounts and pets, to pet dungeons, to LFR, daily grinds that give you decent ilvl and the chance to upgrade them as long as you log in and play. I mean come on now, you can have a complete set of TIER ILVL 246 and never set foot in the raid, just farm cosmic flux and sandworn relics, I mean blizzard has really made this games core items available to all.

Very little of this game is for people who push content. I don't push content at best I am a M+10 player and I have learned that occasionally with a guild group I can push 13 and 14. But I am learning.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

When m+ came out in Legion, I was also pretty scared of the timer and resisted participating in it for quick a while. But once I got a few friends together to try it, we never looked back.

I really think a lot of folks just need to grab a friend or two (you don't even need a full group, can always fill with pugs) and start doing dungeons together. It is so much more chill and schedule friendly than raiding. And it's very rewarding to get better over time!

[Azharok]

Enrage timer isn't the same as the m+ timer. Making non timered 15's available through the queue would not hurt key pushers at all and it would help a lot of people who can't get invited into keys and don't want to build their own groups. In regards to raiding I would suggest merging LFR and Normal and make it queueable or guild groupable. Heroic and Mythic should stay as they are, except Mythic should have the same lockout system as Heroic.

I can assure you that people who don't manage to time 15s won't be able to complete one either.