Group Finder for WOTLK is a great tool, why the hate?.

[Warning]

Nah removing it is a good choice. LFD and LFR were mistakes that permanently damaged the game.

[Romanthony]

Honestly, Ill always be a defender of LFG, I thought it was a great addition into the game, and I dont understand why the hate back in the day I made friends through it, who I sitll have on my battle net to this day so to say it killed the social aspect of the game is jsut rubbish

[Witchblade77]

I know this is a common misconception and I have no idea why but it was never server only. When it came out it was limited to everyone in your battlegroup only. Like bgs

because I distinctly remember only getting people from my server at least initially. as far as i remember it eventually became battlegroup based and eventually they merged battlegrounds for the purposes of lfr and I ended up getting people in groups from the very server I spent a decent chunk of cash of leaving because I hated it there. and maybe it was a perception I had because it prioritized people from the same server and at the time my server was highly populated. but its what I very much distinctly remember and its a main reason I liked it a lot back then.

With a majority of people playing on mega servers, anonymity is already a thing. There's 20 servers worth of people playing on Faerlina, Benediction, and Firemaw. Even if it's server-specific, you're still never going to see 90% of those people ever again. There's just too many people and too much layering for it to matter.

This is why I don't buy the argument that it "kills the community" by making people anonymous: people are already anonymous, and the playerbase chose for it to be this way.



Ironically retail took significantly more time investment than Classic up until the most recent patch. It just wasn't time spent doing literally nothing, unlike spamming for groups in TBC.

I was speaking to my memories of playing back then. /shrug

the killing of the community part refers to, again back then if you played with someone not from your server, and liked them - you couldn't really make sure you play with them again via friend's list and such.

I've made friends and got into guilds through pugging. when pugging removes that possibility, it significantly reduces people's ability to build the community. and I know, I'm perfectly aware that some people have been finding ways around it on retail. whether its through real ID friending, or discord communities, etc. but it just doesn't have the same feel to me, personaly, and back then - even if in theory you were unlikely to meet someone again through sheer rng, as long as you play on the same server - you could chose to play together again. and that's kinda how community happens. and again speaking from those old experiences, there were absolutely names, both of guilds and individuals you would recognize and remember, whether in good or bad context.

[threads]

classic purists are probably the worst people to listen to for these types of changes. they begged for no changes in vanilla and then slowly asked for more QoL. they begged for pre-nerf raids in TBC and blizz had to nerf them anyway cause the boomer gamers couldn't clear a raid from 2007. atm they are against LFD but when their newest alt they mage boosted to 80 isn't getting invited to any heroic dungeons for badges they will beg for dungeon finder aswell.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

classic purists are probably the worst people to listen to for these types of changes. they begged for no changes in vanilla and then slowly asked for more QoL. they begged for pre-nerf raids in TBC and blizz had to nerf them anyway cause the boomer gamers couldn't clear a raid from 2007. atm they are against LFD but when their newest alt they mage boosted to 80 isn't getting invited to any heroic dungeons for badges they will beg for dungeon finder aswell.

Yup. The truth is they do want a better game and if the society within the game flowed like they vision it does. But it doesn't. In the current state all 5 man content pretty much dies 1 or 2 months after the expansion launches. Dies as in it goes from getting into groups is fairly likely and fairly simple by spamming and replying in a channel to looking at a bulletin board for a hour typing LFTank or LFHealer and not getting hits outside of the guy that is like "500g and all the blues and I will do it" type of replies. Really kills the alt experience. Puts to waste a lot of the content. Leads to raid logging behavior big time. I get some people don't have these problems but a lot of people do..

If this was really a problem then the fight should have been about random ques for BGs. Its the exact same thing. No one seemed to have a big issue with that coming into the game.

[Kralljin]

classic purists are probably the worst people to listen to for these types of changes. they begged for no changes in vanilla and then slowly asked for more QoL.

If they begged for QoL changes, then they're not exactly purists.
If you're asking for QoL changes, you stop being a purists.

they begged for pre-nerf raids in TBC and blizz had to nerf them anyway cause the boomer gamers couldn't clear a raid from 2007.

Majority of guilds (at least going by Warcraftlogs) managed to clear them anyway.

And Blizzard didn't nerf KT / Vashj until two months into the phase, which wasn't exactly unwelcomed because it also came along with hefty nerfs for trash, making both SSC / TK much faster to clear.
Nevermind that their nerfed state was always the intended, final state for T5, because it was the state in 2.4.

Like seriously, what sort of complaint is this?
Complaining about the fact that some bosses have been slightly more difficult considering how hard Classic got roflstomped due to a variety of factors?
Should any TBC Boss been post nerf right off the bat? Would that have significantly improved the experience for everyone?

Let's transport that logic into Wotlk: post nerf Ulduar exclusively and ICC buff starts at 30%.
I don't think that sounds great for players.

atm they are against LFD but when their newest alt they mage boosted to 80 isn't getting invited to any heroic dungeons for badges they will beg for dungeon finder aswell.

You really believe there is a noteworthy group of people that
(1) Are fine with the leveling boost and purchase it
(2) Complain about Dungeonfinder

Like, you're not even pointing out any hypocrisy, you just assume that this is what they're going to do.
Not even mentioning that anybody who manages to gear their character in TBC right now, will also manage to do in Wotlk, especially considering how god damn easy Naxx 10 is.
Anybody who would be seriously surprised how "difficult" it will be to gear a character without DF doesn't play TBC right now, because that's how it'll be in Wotlk.
Which i think would be another rather big assumption about these people.

It really seems to me that you just project anything that could be construed as hypocrisy onto one group that you simply assume has an issue with the dungeonfinder, despite the fact that these things have little or nothing to do with the dungeonfinder.

If this was really a problem then the fight should have been about random ques for BGs. Its the exact same thing. No one seemed to have a big issue with that coming into the game.

Random queues in Classic aren't exactly compareable because you could queue with an entire group, which naturally gave you a massive advantage.
If you queued without a pre made, you basically lost ~70% of games because you went up against a pre made.

If you wanted to be serious about Ranking or doing BG's in general (exception being AV), you were better off joining a pre made, else you would have a really bad time.

[DarkAmbient]

To be in favor of dungeon finder is to be against a robust server community in a community based game. Now, I don't actually agree with that argument, but it has as much merit as yours does.

I don't believe so. What I wrote is literally true. To argue against the dungeon finder is to argue against a popular quality-of-life tool that facilitates access to group play, which is the main focus of a multiplayer game. But I don't believe the notion that a robust server community is created by being forced to spam chat channels in order to access group content has any merit.

[dragonflight10]

''People need to realize this is 2022, people want easier accessibility.''

Then thats why you have Retail. Thats for you Casuals who have constant limited time. You lot of player types are the only ones upsets of this, no one else.

Go do a mythic raid and come back to us
you probably think you can do mythic raiding while in reality you would fail in normal mode

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Random queues in Classic aren't exactly compareable because you could queue with an entire group, which naturally gave you a massive advantage.
If you queued without a pre made, you basically lost ~70% of games because you went up against a pre made.

If you wanted to be serious about Ranking or doing BG's in general (exception being AV), you were better off joining a pre made, else you would have a really bad time.

You are right. Its worse. Because it actually gave you a completive end game advantage instead of just random ques that lose their punch a month or two after the expansion release.

Very good point.

So we have already accepted a much worse form of random queing. What is wrong with LFD really then?

[ResentfulUK]

The thing I find funniest is those screaming for LFG on the basis; "I want the real experience!". Well, okay then. Wait for it to come out in the Icecrown patch like it did back then.

LFG is an abysmal tool. It's been discussed to death as to why that's the case, I don't see what else can be said for it.

[Bloodbayne]

Classic apologists will never admit that the players are the problem and that not everything is the game or Blizzard's fault. People want more barriers to other people succeeding at the game, their ego can’t take that hit.

Classic WoW is hugely about flossing on people with your accomplishments and gear. The more people get to do that the less special it is.

Spamming trade chat with"LF TANK!!" is such an amazing experience and when the guy leaves mid run, you have hearthstone back to the main city and look for a person again.

People need to realize this is 2022, people want easier accessibility.

First, let me get a megaphone to scream, IT WASN'T IN WRATH FOR MOST OF THE EXPANSION. 3.0, 3.1 and 3.2 didn't have the damn Dungeon Finder, it wasn't added until 3.3 Fall of the Lich King. So to put it in Phase 1-3 WOULD be changes. I'm not a #nochanges Andy but the thing did more harm than good. People had a reputation on their server based on how they behaved and their skill. If you treated other players badly, you were known for it, if you ninja looted and Need rolled everything even if you didn't need it, you were known for it. If you were just awful at the game but really nice, usually you'd find a guild that would work with you and try to help you get better. As opposed to random droppers with no patients.

Too much accessibility makes toxic players far more prevalent. People were more bold and tended to be way more toxic with the anonymity Dungeon Finder provided

Most of us who played before Dungeon Finder and after went through these phases:

Being excited for the convenience it offered and how much faster it was to spam dungeons.
Realizing over time people began to play like bots as the routine of running dungeons with randoms became muscle memory.
Deciding there's no point in talking in most Random groups because other people started to be more and more silent. Cross server grouping outside of Dungeon Finder wasn't a thing for many years while Dungeon Finder already was, so people started to feel there was no point in chatting or making a connection with those players.
Seeing how it promoted the toxic little jerks that started to fill the community because suddenly they could get gear.

BEFORE if you were a toxic jerk, you got ostracized on your server and your name was barred from most good groups. NOW you make excuses for that player and they manage to get gear bumping them up to higher content. Sometimes gatekeeping is fine, sometimes. Keeping really toxic players out of groups by being selective is a lot better than a random group and going through 5 god damn tanks that auto drop because the dungeon is Halls of Reflection or Occulus.

Nothing wrong with the tank leaving if the group is terrible. Maybe it's something you're doing wrong? I see a lot of unaware players doing 1/20th the damage of everyone else, elitist or casual doesn't matter here. If someone is too lazy to hit more than one button, no they don't deserve the group. As to why Dungeon Finder is bad it's because making the content accessible to more casual players, at face value doesn't seem bad, it seems more fair, where it becomes unfair is when said poor little innocent casual players grief the group by doing terrible damage, not wearing a shield to tank as a paladin or warrior then screaming at you for suggesting they do it different. No one talks about the casual player who has a bad attitude and entitlement issues.

And don't you even DARE to call me a "Classic apologist" first of all there's NOTHING to apologize for. Secondly I personally only got to 27 in Classic, I enjoyed original vanilla and got too sick for a time to really go far in Classic. In BC I didn't hit 70 until phase 4 and I mostly play Retail so I'm far from a "Classic Andy". I just believe what I believe, if they removed the Dungeon and Raid Finder TODAY in Retail to me it'd be 1000% better and I'd dance with joy not really caring who is butthurt about it. MAYBE....PROBABLY...they're going to add it in Phase 4 aka 3.3 equivalent to recreate the history of when it was originally released. Eventually people will whine and cry enough that they cave anyways. But again, it was not in 3.0-3.2 so why would it be anyways? Because you feel entitled to have it since you now have "a life" that nobody else on the internet cares about? I dunno, I don't hate you guys for thinking this way but I wish you could see all sides of the issue. I can see the positives, why can't you guys see the negatives of it?

Edit: One more thing, my favorite type of moron is the person who says "If YoU DoN't LiKe It DoN't uSe It!!!11". Yeah...because there's so many other people going to dungeons outside of Dungeon Finder right? 200% brain power there...

[kranur]

but I do remember that when they originally added it in wrath, it was server only

Don't know here this misinformation is coming from but I've seen a few people claim this. RDF was cross-realm from the beginning, with all realms from the battlegroup as bg's were.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.0

The Dungeon Finder is now available, providing players with quick and easy access to five-player parties. This feature connects all realms within a battlegroup using an advanced matchmaking system, making it easier for players of all levels to find a dungeon group. In addition, players can reap additional rewards through the Dungeon Finder by choosing the Random option, which is available to both pick-up and pre-formed groups. Check out the User Interface section for more details.

[Royru]

because I distinctly remember only getting people from my server at least initially. as far as i remember it eventually became battlegroup based and eventually they merged battlegrounds for the purposes of lfr and I ended up getting people in groups from the very server I spent a decent chunk of cash of leaving because I hated it there. and maybe it was a perception I had because it prioritized people from the same server and at the time my server was highly populated. but its what I very much distinctly remember and its a main reason I liked it a lot back then.



I was speaking to my memories of playing back then. /shrug

the killing of the community part refers to, again back then if you played with someone not from your server, and liked them - you couldn't really make sure you play with them again via friend's list and such.

I've made friends and got into guilds through pugging. when pugging removes that possibility, it significantly reduces people's ability to build the community. and I know, I'm perfectly aware that some people have been finding ways around it on retail. whether its through real ID friending, or discord communities, etc. but it just doesn't have the same feel to me, personaly, and back then - even if in theory you were unlikely to meet someone again through sheer rng, as long as you play on the same server - you could chose to play together again. and that's kinda how community happens. and again speaking from those old experiences, there were absolutely names, both of guilds and individuals you would recognize and remember, whether in good or bad context.

Again, it was never server only. Go check patch notes of it being released. Never happened

[crusadernero]

Nah removing it is a good choice. LFD and LFR were mistakes that permanently damaged the game.

I somewhat agree, but when you see /LookingForGroup in classic BC right now - its a clusterfuck of ppl buying/selling boosts, some for raids and some for dungeons at max level.

Try being a lvling character in this enviroment and get a dungeon. Its a utter shitshow.

If they aint having RDF in the game, they gotta fix other things to. Its a shitshow as is.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, Ill always be a defender of LFG, I thought it was a great addition into the game, and I dont understand why the hate back in the day I made friends through it, who I sitll have on my battle net to this day so to say it killed the social aspect of the game is jsut rubbish

Theres lots of reasons why the game has changed and RDF is just one of them. Its also a very clear thing to point at and say "this is to blame", while its a tad more complicated.

Personally, I got most friends out in the world this time around in classic & BC. The dungeons were easy enough and once cleared ppl moved on.

[WaltherLeopold]

Its funny when alot of people have advocated for #nochanges in classic & BC, but when WotLK comes around there should be changes; remove RDF. Thats a huge change right there.

It's not that big of a change, if you assume that RDF was always meant to drop with ICC, which means that roughly 75% of the expansion is over by the time RDF even launches on WotLK Classic.

But sure, it should be in and I am and have always been firmly no changes.

[Kralljin]

So we have already accepted a much worse form of random queing. What is wrong with LFD really then?

I think the comparison is just poor, because people that were using the Random BG's in the same fashion as the Dungeonfinder got punished hard for it.

It's also a rather backwards logic, Dungeonfinder is at large a convience tool, whereas with random BG queues in Classic you still had to organize a group yourself to get an even playing field, meaning that convience factor vanishes into thin air.
Nevermind that some sort of automized queueing was necessary because it involved the enemy faction, it's not like you could manually set up matches, whereas it's entirely possible to set up a dungeon group manually.

Random BG's would have been ironically more fairer if you weren't allowed to queue unless you were in a pre made group, because the way it worked in Classic was just a noob trap.

It's like having a Dungeonfinder available but the content is too hard for the average player to complete, so you had to manually put a group together anyway.
Which is something that actually happened in Cata.

If you want to argue for the Dungeonfinder, go ahead, but i think the comparison with Classic Random BG's is just a bad, because the way it was set up encouraged actually players to create pre made groups.
And i don't think that was unintended.

[crusadernero]

It's not that big of a change, if you assume that RDF was always meant to drop with ICC, which means that roughly 75% of the expansion is over by the time RDF even launches on WotLK Classic.

But sure, it should be in and I am and have always been firmly no changes.

I really dont care either way. What I care about is how it is now. How is it now as a lvl 33 warlock? Its a utter shitshow when checking in on LFG channel, spammed down with GDKP, Boost sale/requests(ALOT), pug raids & max lvl dungeons. Its rather hard to fit in your "lf tank for Scarlet Monastery armory" in all of that wall of spam.

Sure, we can list ourself up but its weird - I see ALOT of people out in the world, but very few ppl actually sign up on the lfg channel. Why is it so? Are ppl just boosting? Its def worth doing these dungeons so ppl should sign but aint doing so.

[sam86]

Okey.

Thats.

Just sad imho that should never ever be a situation becoming real on a very high pop server.

that's the norm back then, my server was high and still hard to get group while lvling (usually once a day and in crowded hours)
heck even as tank/healer duo u may not even get a dps after 2 am if u forgot ur daily hc, so u count on ur friends/guildies for that, hence why i was idiot stupid 'happy' for LFG tool
then lfg actually came, turning all ur guildies and friends to anonymous random 'npcs' that u can be jerk with since u may never see them again, and part by part wow social died, and ppl stopped caring about anything at all, guild name became unknown except the world first race, and u no longer need to even know anyone to play competitively
So i'd take 1h+ search for tank ANY day over what souless wow became with LFG

[BarosanuNr1]

imo they should probably add lfd to wrath launch but some tweeks to be included, almost certainly no exp rewards attached to it or badges atleast on the first patch (seeing as wrath didn't launch with it). Keep it server only, which if i remember correctly was the case in wrath if blizzard is truly concerned with community. Maybe, and i mean MAYBE, make players run or discover then dungeon first before being able to q and teleport to it for free(im not even sold on this idea just kinda spitballing)

I like your ideas. They could introduce RDF at the start but with no extra rewards until 3.3 in order to preserve the gearing style of each patch. This way one can at least do the dungeons (especially in the case of low-level ones). "Server only" I think would work better as a voluntary tick-box, so as not to punish players from smaller realms/factions.

[rarhyx]

give lfd but server specific and boom everyone is happy