[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[druchii5]

Looks pretty good IMO. Got me quite excited and wasn't expecting it to come out that soon--but then again I haven't really been following its development.

[Mehrunes]

I think the not-so-happy ending part was Jon Snow going full circle and ending up back at the Wall, where we’re left to assume he continues his watch (again) or he just says ‘fuck it’ and goes with the Free Folk, never to return.

If the latter, it is indeed a happy ending.

Given how the North became independent and the Wall is gone he could just go home to Winterfell if he wanted to. He went with the Wildlings because he wanted to.

The issue with Dany's snap is...well, it wasn't well written.

I'm 100% positive that's GRRM's arc for Daenerys in the book - that she slowly succumbs to the madness inherent to Targ rulers, and does some atrotious shit.

But it wasn't "earned" in the show. The things that she "suffered" just....didn't feel like enough of a justification for her to snap. Yeah, she lost one of her dragons to the Night's King - but on the show it's because there was some fool's errand to go north of the wall on a rescue mission when they didn't really need to go north of the wall in general. Like, they needed proof there were undead? Come on. Yeah, she lost all her fleet and a second dragon - but in the show, it's because she was dumb as fuck and didn't remember the Iron Fleet was on Cersei's side. Yeah, she lost Missandei, but....she literally just gave Missandei to her enemy, an enemy that had already shown itself to not care about the normal rules of civility during the Red Wedding, which two of her advisors, Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister, would be very familiar with. Yeah, Varys betrayed her - but in the show it was because Varys acted like a super dumbass. And yes, Jon rejected her ultimately when finding out about his true parentage, becoming a threat to her succession to the throne - but in the show it was literally a 180 switch for Jon where he was fucking her and totally in love one episode, and then can't look her in the eye the next episode.

All of those things are feasibly book story points put on the television screen. But I don't feel like they were earned, or written well, on the show.

The main problem with Dany going mad in the show is that Dipshit and Dumbfuck left the task of building it up for the last season. Which was also shorter than the previous ones. Forcing them to rush it even more than they rushed other parts of the story. Meanwhile the books already started paving the way for her descent with things like her becoming obsessively paranoid about the prophecy of three acts of treason against her. But the show skipped that, because of course it did.

Also, what are you on about Varys acting like a dumbass? Given how that would be him acting out of character and the last season had all characters being true to themselves that's physically impossible.

Yeah, Grey Worm executing rando Lannister soldiers with no hesitation but then keeping the guy who murdered Dany in prison for who knows how long unmolested is completely stupid.

He was just being true to his character.

[Warning]

The main problem with Dany going mad in the show is that Dipshit and Dumbfuck left the task of building it up for the last season. Which was also shorter than the previous ones. Forcing them to rush it even more than they rushed other parts of the story. Meanwhile the books already started paving the way for her descent with things like her becoming obsessively paranoid about the prophecy of three acts of treason against her. But the show skipped that, because of course it did.

This is kinda it, the show became self aware and started doing fan service stuff like keeping Bronn and Brienne alive in situations they shouldn't be, and turning Tormund into a meme. Similarly, they were letting Dany be too kind and popular for what her ultimate role was going to be. There was a clear hint when she burned the Tarly guys but it was kind of too little and too late. A lot of people on this forum and in some other places were justifying that warcrime (and tbf in GoT terms, it was nowhere near the worst stuff) so it kinda makes sense the insanity arc hit a lot of people by complete surprise.

[eschatological]

Even the Tarly thing was portrayed more as a "she was forced to do it because she offered them an out by bending the knee, and they refused."

Like, that her hands were tied.

Again, it could easily be a book plot point that she literally incinerates the Tarly bloodline except for Sam after a battle she wins. But instead of it as a debatable punishment for treason, she could do it in...an insane way. Like, have the Tarlys bend the knee, beg for forgiveness after seeing the carnage of Drogon on the battlefield. Have them on a dais with her, as if she was accepting that. Have Lord Tarly say one inoccuous thing, and have her mutter something to the effect of "you signaled your treason when you took the field against me." and then look at Drogon and speak draecarys. Have him incinerate all three - Dany, Tarly, Tarly's oldest son - but because she's immune to fire, she comes out unscathed, her hair on fire and looking like a real madwoman.

Guess what, I've never thought of the Tarly situation once since I've seen it. I came up with that just as I'm writing this post, and it isn't refined at all. And it would have illustrated the point better.

[Adamas102]

There was a clear hint when she burned the Tarly guys but it was kind of too little and too late. A lot of people on this forum and in some other places were justifying that warcrime (and tbf in GoT terms, it was nowhere near the worst stuff) so it kinda makes sense the insanity arc hit a lot of people by complete surprise.

It's certainly no more insane that feeding a restrained man to a pack of dogs, or dismembering a bunch of bodies, cooking them into a pie, and feeding them to someone. And yet, no one talks about the Stark women as unhinged women that need to be kept away from positions of power at all cost.

[Ghanir]

Jon Snow leaving with the free folk, and possibly staying with the free folk, seems like a very reasonable conclusion after all that's happened. He didn't really fit in with the southern part of the continent besides the Starks, and there was no need for him at Winterfell after Daenerys dies so he goes to a place where he doesn't need to think about such things. A very rewarding ending for all that he's been through.

[Adamas102]

Arya isn’t in a position of power, nor did she ever want it, and Sansa killed the man that raped her, abused her, tortured her and held her captive… I certainly wouldn’t call her insane or unhinged for killing Ramsey.

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Oh, and she fed Ramsey to his dogs because that’s what Ramsey would do to people. You remember him hunting them with the dogs for fun?

The point is that the Dany scene in question is no more insane or unhinged than what these other characters do. In fact, given the setting it's a completely reasonable outcome to dealing with a military enemy (most people in Westeros put in the position of the Tarly's aren't even given a choice). Yet it's still brought up as a "sign of madness" while what the Stark women do is glossed over, or worse considered to be badass and empowering moments for those characters.

[Warning]

The point is that the Dany scene in question is no more insane or unhinged than what these other characters do. In fact, given the setting it's a completely reasonable outcome to dealing with a military enemy (most people in Westeros put in the position of the Tarly's aren't even given a choice). Yet it's still brought up as a "sign of madness" while what the Stark women do is glossed over, or worse considered to be badass and empowering moments for those characters.

Guess it's a little easier to justify what Sansa did to Ramsay given that he had flayed and/or crucified her people and one of her family members, personally raped and terrorized her and killed her underage brother just hours prior. Yep Dany burning two surrendering soldiers alive for fighting for the other side and staying loyal is completely comparable..

[Deadite]

The point is that the Dany scene in question is no more insane or unhinged than what these other characters do. In fact, given the setting it's a completely reasonable outcome to dealing with a military enemy (most people in Westeros put in the position of the Tarly's aren't even given a choice). Yet it's still brought up as a "sign of madness" while what the Stark women do is glossed over, or worse considered to be badass and empowering moments for those characters.

Yeah burning a city full of innocent women and children is just the same as letting dogs eat the guy who repeatedly beat and raped you. The geezer who killed your brother and skinned alive all your friends and acquaintances. Normally i would end that with 'Said no one ever...' but i guess in this case one person did say it.

[Jastall]

The point is that the Dany scene in question is no more insane or unhinged than what these other characters do. In fact, given the setting it's a completely reasonable outcome to dealing with a military enemy (most people in Westeros put in the position of the Tarly's aren't even given a choice). Yet it's still brought up as a "sign of madness" while what the Stark women do is glossed over, or worse considered to be badass and empowering moments for those characters.

I actually agree it's not. Dany did handle the matter poorly; she should have talked to him in private first and give him actual reasons to join her, simply demanding his allegiance because she's the boss now shows her poor political acumen. But killing Tarly after he refused to bend the knee is normal Westeros thing. Incineration by dragonfire is certainly brutal but not that much more than lopping a guy's head off with a sword and is over just as quickly. If nothing else it certainly makes a statement.

Which is why her later on burning an entire city of people to ashes because they were in the area when the bells reminded her of her dead family (the canonical explanation by the showrunners despite Dany not even being born when the Targaryens fell) is so, so out of left field. The show very much spedrun through her supposed madness, and made it look like she snapped because her nephew was more popular at parties and didn't want to fuck her anymore.

[StillMcfuu]

It's kind of crazy that Dany's turn is still argued. There were clear hints that's the way it was going for seasons. Jon Snow being revealed as a Targaryn and essentially the real true heir, her brothers ridiculous behavior, etc...
The issue with the show is she went from about a 15 on the way to 100 crazy, to just 100 in the span of a handful of episodes. It wasn't satisfying to watch it happen. When it happened it should have felt like vindication for her, until you see the aftermath. Instead we felt disgusted by the insult to on otherwise well written character. This is a perfect example of the story board being fine, but the writing being bad.

[Adamas102]

Yeah burning a city full of innocent women and children is just the same as letting dogs eat the guy who repeatedly beat and raped you. The geezer who killed your brother and skinned alive all your friends and acquaintances. Normally i would end that with 'Said no one ever...' but i guess in this case one person did say it.

You'll have to point out who said it because this was very clearly not the scene that was being talked about here. You're a whole season off.

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Dany did handle the matter poorly; she should have talked to him in private first and give him actual reasons to join her, simply demanding his allegiance because she's the boss now shows her poor political acumen.

The scene was still a mess either way. Tarly being so adamant to maintain his allegiance to the queen that massacred his actual liege lords and only ascended to the throne by default which apparently no opposition after Tommen's death is kind of silly. Tyrion even points it out but it's just handwaved away so that the scene can proceed.

[eschatological]

Yeah burning a city full of innocent women and children is just the same as letting dogs eat the guy who repeatedly beat and raped you. The geezer who killed your brother and skinned alive all your friends and acquaintances. Normally i would end that with 'Said no one ever...' but i guess in this case one person did say it.

They're comparing Sansa/Arya's actions to when they burned the Tarlys after defeating them in battle and they had surrendered.

Everyone agrees that Dany burning the city was "insane", people just say it wasn't earned in the events shown beforehand. Like the Tarly burning.

[Deadite]

You'll have to point out who said it because this was very clearly not the scene that was being talked about here. You're a whole season off.

Yeah for some reason i thought you were talking about her burning King's Landing. My apologies.

They're comparing Sansa/Arya's actions to when they burned the Tarlys after defeating them in battle and they had surrendered.

Everyone agrees that Dany burning the city was "insane", people just say it wasn't earned in the events shown beforehand. Like the Tarly burning.

Yeah. I do think the burning the Tarlys was pretty much in line with Danys style at that point. She was always ruthless to her enemies.

[Adamas102]

Yeah for some reason i thought you were talking about her burning King's Landing. My apologies

Yeah there’s no question that where they took her at the end there was total batshit crazy (“Bells really tick me off, but I’m just liberating everyone by killing them so I’m still totally a good and just ruler”).

The issue is whether such absolute demented madness was hinted at. Some people say yeah totally, others say there were hints but still way too much of a shift, and others (like myself) would argue that nothing she did prior to season 8 was indicative of delusional madness. Cruel at times? Absolutely, but general cruelty is kind of an everyday thing in the setting, and all the “heroes” were responsible for at least a few grotesque and unnecessarily cruel acts.

[Adamas102]

I still wouldn’t compare them, nor would I agree that Sansa was insane. She was a victim and received her justice, in a world where justice is spilled with blood.

Why wouldn't you compare them? Both scenes involve the character exacting punishment on someone who has wronged them.

I can go on for a while about how Sansa was just another book character that D&D didn't understand and completely fucked up. It's not that there's anything wrong in setting for Sansa killing Ramsay, but she doesn't outsmart or outmaneuver him. She just mirrors his sadistic cruelty. I'm not saying that show Sansa is insane either. Sociopathic perhaps, but not the delusional insanity that drove the Mad King or caused Dany to massacre the townsfolk of Kings Landing.

[eschatological]

Oh Sansa was supremely fucked up by D&D. The book is setting her up to be a literal tactical mastermind, and the show just made her a pawn of Baelish the entire time. She literally only escaped her situation when others rescued her.

I also think the book's decision for her to be posing as Baelish's daughter, and therefore giving her a wedge to hold off Baelish's advances, would have worked better than what they did in the show. Not to mention they did Baelish dirty too on how dumb he was, first in giving Sansa to Ramsay, and then not having a backup plan if Bolton couldn't keep Winterfell, and then in being hoodwinked in thinking he was safe after the Starks returned.

[Jastall]

You'll have to point out who said it because this was very clearly not the scene that was being talked about here. You're a whole season off.

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The scene was still a mess either way. Tarly being so adamant to maintain his allegiance to the queen that massacred his actual liege lords and only ascended to the throne by default which apparently no opposition after Tommen's death is kind of silly. Tyrion even points it out but it's just handwaved away so that the scene can proceed.

Oh, the situation in central and southern Westeros post S6 makes no sense, I agree. Pretty much nobody seems to object to Cercei blowing up the seat of the church and the most powerful family in the realm all at once, Highgarden gets taken offscreen as if the Tyrell's army just evaporated into thin air, everyone seems to just accept she's the queen of everything now.

In the show's meagre defense however, being a pigheaded bastard is entirely in Tarly's character.

[Koriani]

Oh Sansa was supremely fucked up by D&D. The book is setting her up to be a literal tactical mastermind, and the show just made her a pawn of Baelish the entire time. She literally only escaped her situation when others rescued her.

I also think the book's decision for her to be posing as Baelish's daughter, and therefore giving her a wedge to hold off Baelish's advances, would have worked better than what they did in the show. Not to mention they did Baelish dirty too on how dumb he was, first in giving Sansa to Ramsay, and then not having a backup plan if Bolton couldn't keep Winterfell, and then in being hoodwinked in thinking he was safe after the Starks returned.

Whereas here's me - so stuck on Sansa's portrayal in the first book that I've just waited to see her die ever since =D. I guess I'm just not seeing 'tactical mastermind' in the book - at all. But I'm also acknowledging it could be because I've never stopped hating the bratty-ass-teenager/developing sociopath (so I've either not allowed her growth, or not seen her growth as being positive). Heh. Perhaps just 'sociopath being more sociopath' doesn't win me over.

(This is Book Sansa, not show Sansa btw)

Re: Show Sansa and "crazy?"
Sansa killing Bolton with his dogs - Shakespearean Karma. Hells to the Yeah.
Danarys killing the Tarley's because they wouldn't bend the knee - The Game of Thrones as Intended (i.e. not madness to me/world appropriate) Sucks but fitting.
Danarys killing after the Bells - "unearned madness" snap.

[eschatological]

Oh, it's definitely a very recent thing at the end of book 5, after she's fled King's Landing with Baelish and she's hiding in the Vale. She learns from Baelish how to manipulate Sweet Robin, and eventually was eyeing up manipulating Baelish.

A lot of that analysis of Sansa is based on what we THINK she's going to be, as a lot of it hasn't been seen in the books yet, as her storyline (and everyone else's) is stuck at "the beginning of the endgame." Hell, Arya is still a novice at the House of Black and White in the books.