STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Royru]

The queue content in plenty of other games feels stellar, especially FF14.



That playerbase sucks because the content sucks and doesn't teach them to play the game. Know what happens when you ignore mechanics in FF14 queued content? You die. You stop having fun. What happens in WoW? You get healed through it and someone else does the mechanics for you. It's garbage.

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Destiny 2 is the game I play "hardcore". I love their endgame loop. Know what has never had a negative impact on me? Casual D2 players getting BiS gear.

Exactly it never has been an issue because the game is specifically designed around casuals. If a casual gamer has bis gear then that just means more people for you to que with and play with. Omg the travesty of having more people to play with!!!! Lol.

And the content is easy enough to where even if you are doing some of the hardest content in the game (grandmasters) you can just literally use the destiny group finder app which is basically a shitty lfg tool and run the content with randoms with no comms easily and quickly. And it’s all good and fun.

[NineSpine]

Exactly it never has been an issue because the game is specifically designed around casuals. If a casual gamer has bis gear then that just means more people for you to que with and play with. Omg the travesty of having more people to play with!!!! Lol.

And the content is easy enough to where even if you are doing some of the hardest content in the game (grandmasters) you can just literally use the destiny group finder app which is basically a shitty lfg tool and run the content with randoms with no comms easily and quickly. And it’s all good and fun.

Raids and dungeons are the only placed where coordination is really needed, and I love sherpa-ing casual players through it.

[Royru]

Yeah and games like that will always fail. You need a massive power difference between premade content and non premade content if you want a successful game with millions of players.

This is why Lost Ark will fail very soon, anyone can get the best gear in the game without manually forming a group.

Always fail? Destiny has had these systems for almost 10 years now and I wouldn’t even be surprised if the playerbase is bigger than wow. Sony just bought out bungie which really only has destiny 2 under its belt for almost 4 billion dollars. Seems like “a game like this” is doing just fine. Destiny has always had a super sustainable playerbase, unlike a certain game that has nothing but double digit losses for 10 years.

[Gorsameth]

The queue content in plenty of other games feels stellar, especially FF14.



That playerbase sucks because the content sucks and doesn't teach them to play the game. Know what happens when you ignore mechanics in FF14 queued content? You die. You stop having fun. What happens in WoW? You get healed through it and someone else does the mechanics for you. It's garbage.

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Destiny 2 is the game I play "hardcore". I love their endgame loop. Know what has never had a negative impact on me? Casual D2 players getting BiS gear.

I've played FF14. No the queue content didn't feel harder then WoW's LFR. A lot of it was "impossible to fail" and some you could fail if not for a small handful of people carrying the idiots kicking and screaming across the finish.

[Kirbydude65]

The queue content in plenty of other games feels stellar, especially FF14.



That playerbase sucks because the content sucks and doesn't teach them to play the game. Know what happens when you ignore mechanics in FF14 queued content? You die. You stop having fun. What happens in WoW? You get healed through it and someone else does the mechanics for you. It's garbage.

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Destiny 2 is the game I play "hardcore". I love their endgame loop. Know what has never had a negative impact on me? Casual D2 players getting BiS gear.

This is where I know you're conflating things incorrectly. Casuals don't have access to Adapt Weapons. Casuals don't have access to Legendary/Master Lost Section exotics. Casuals don't have access to specific weapons or catalysts that require harder content (Nightfalls, Competitive PVP, ect.). Hell you can 3 Man Vow of the Disciple at the moment, and casuals still don't have weapon patterns or crafted weapons from the raid.

You can get to max power level, but that isn't nearly the same as getting BiS or even a high item level in Warcraft.

[chiddie]

I only do LFR cause it's litterally impossible to ever get invited to Normal mode. Unless you already cleared it and have 260, there is a 0.0001% chance you ever get invited.

It’s the same reason I left the M+ wheel one year ago.

I had all 14 on time multiple times but “I had to have the 15 completed to be invited into a 15”.

Finally opened my eyes and quit this crap.

[NineSpine]

I've played FF14. No the queue content didn't feel harder then WoW's LFR. A lot of it was "impossible to fail" and some you could fail if not for a small handful of people carrying the idiots kicking and screaming across the finish.

The endgame queued content in FF14 is objectively harder than LFR. Which raid did you find easier than LFR?

[Royru]

Raids and dungeons are the only placed where coordination is really needed, and I love sherpa-ing casual players through it.

Yeah but the thing about it is the size and the difficulty of these make it way more manageable. If wow had raids with a similar size (group size and actual raid length size) it would be much more laid back and relaxed to Sherpa.

The only thing I can imagine is try to walk into a raid like black temple (or whatever massive raid you want to think of) with 10/25 players being sort of lost. It’s miserable to even consider walking them through it.

Now imagine if we had raids like Malygos in wotlk with 5/10 newer players. Much more manageable. Much more laid back. Even if it takes “forever” it’s still going to take a 1/4 of the time a good BT run would take.

[NineSpine]

This is where I know you're conflating things incorrectly. Casuals don't have access to Adapt Weapons. Casuals don't have access to Legendary/Master Lost Section exotics. Casuals don't have access to specific weapons or catalysts that require harder content (Nightfalls, Competitive PVP, ect.). Hell you can 3 Man Vow of the Disciple at the moment, and casuals still don't have weapon patterns or crafted weapons from the raid.

You can get to max power level, but that isn't nearly the same as getting BiS or even a high item level in Warcraft.

Adept weapons are marginal increases that often aren't better than other god rolls.

Casuals can absolutely get the Lost Sector exotics, which again are not necessarily better. In fact, some of those exotics plain suck.

A casual player can hit max light level and assemble a kit that can easily take on the hardest content in the game if they wanted to.

[Royru]

This is where I know you're conflating things incorrectly. Casuals don't have access to Adapt Weapons. Casuals don't have access to Legendary/Master Lost Section exotics. Casuals don't have access to specific weapons or catalysts that require harder content (Nightfalls, Competitive PVP, ect.). Hell you can 3 Man Vow of the Disciple at the moment, and casuals still don't have weapon patterns or crafted weapons from the raid.

You can get to max power level, but that isn't nearly the same as getting BiS or even a high item level in Warcraft.

It’s on par with getting the highest tier level of gear in wow for sure. Maybe not BiS.

1. Adept weapons do not mean they are better. It depends on the roll and even when you have a god roll adept vs god roll regular weapon it still only makes a slight difference in performance pve wise. Like a hot head adept vs a regular hot head god roll might mean what? You use one more rocket than before? It’s really not that big of a difference. This is similar to comparing a mage in full tier 5 to a mage in full tier 5 with vashj trinket. It’s better, but it isn’t going to be the gate to content.

2. Lost sector exotics. Okay first of all, you understand lost sector exotics come from SOLOING the lost sector right? Being a casual with the best gear means these lost sectors are a breeezzeeeee. Even still doing the legend lost sector which is like 10 points below the regular cap still drops these and if you have max gear you can literally one shot everything in there and get those items.

And even STILL those exotics are most of the time not even the best piece to have. And even if they are the best for a certain build you can just use a completely separate build with an exotic you DO have and be on par with everyone else.

3. Weapon patterns from raids. I haven’t done a single raid since the new expansion. I don’t have any of those weapons at all. And I’m sitting at 1580 light level and me and my friend 2 man all grandmasters/vox 1590/grasp 1590/all the hardest content the game has outside of raids.

I got this far by literally being the most casual gamer and just doing my weeklies which involve nothing but queing up for content.

[Deadite]

. If they wanted, they could make M+ and raids up to Heroic a fully automated queue that matches people with similar MMR (score). Personally, I think they realize that the latent toxicity of the playerbase would make queuing this kind of content a waking nightmare for a non-insignificant portion of the game's audience (essentially further dividing the playerbase between those who run in premades and those who don't) so they're hesitant to implement it. You might get your wish though as I could see it being something they experiment with in the future.

It is thanks to how toxic the player base is that people prefer queueable content. I doubt it would divide much of anything if they made things like M+ and normal raids queueable. It would be a win/win imho. The Queue Andys would have more shit to queue for and it would remove even more people from premade content so people they think are trash won't sneak into one of their groups.

[Kirbydude65]

Adept weapons are marginal increases that often aren't better than other god rolls.

They're not marginal and they are very relevant especially with weapon mods like Adapt Big Ones.

Casuals can absolutely get the Lost Sector exotics, which again are not necessarily better. In fact, some of those exotics plain suck.

Renewal Grasps, Star-Eater's Scales, Curias of the Falling Star, Lorlay Splendor, Boots of the Assembler, Necrotic Grips. Plenty of good ones.

A casual player can hit max light level and assemble a kit that can easily take on the hardest content in the game if they wanted to.

A casual player doesn't even know what champion mods do, or the fact that they impact non-champion enemies. Add in the general lack of mods and a casual player cannot just do the hardest content.

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It’s on par with getting the highest tier level of gear in wow for sure. Maybe not BiS.

Exactly. Its about the equivalent of normal raid gear in wow. The two aren't comparable.

[NineSpine]

They're not marginal and they are very relevant especially with weapon mods like Adapt Big Ones.



Renewal Grasps, Star-Eater's Scales, Curias of the Falling Star, Lorlay Splendor, Boots of the Assembler, Necrotic Grips. Plenty of good ones.



A casual player doesn't even know what champion mods do, or the fact that they impact non-champion enemies. Add in the general lack of mods and a casual player cannot just do the hardest content.

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Exactly. Its about the equivalent of normal raid gear in wow. The two aren't comparable.

It is mathematically, physically impossible to beat mythic sylvanas with normal raid gear.

It is trivial to assemble a kit capable of the hardest content in Destiny 2 through casual play.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Interesting thought. How do you square this with the reality that there are so very many MMOs out there all squarely catering to the more casual crowd? The only MMO I can think of that is designing as WoW does, with the priorities of the topmost players in mind, is how SWTOR changed up their system in the new expansion. And, along with that, SWTOR's subs have plummeted off a cliff. And before anyone tries to claim "it was a buggy mess!", most bugs have been fixed and the community was in constant uproar over the return to Warcraft-style gearing.

If prioritizing casual design leads to failure, then how can so many games do it without utterly cannibalizing from each other? And, conversely, there is this huge open market for games prioritizing topmost players with no games other than Warcraft and SWTOR attempting to fill it ... both of which are losing players and goodwill constantly.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but I'm wondering how this can be true given the current state of the MMO marketplace?

edit: editing to note that you did say "every facet", which I agree it would be disastrous to let ANY portion of a playerbase dictate "every" facet of a game. Just wanting to avoid the typical MMOC pedantism.

Do we actually know that subs dropped? SW Tor is my MMO I want to love but it has been so unbelievably starved for good content I find it difficult to play for more than like a month at a time. Actually seems like a really good example to me of why I actually want content to be sunsetted so that you're not running the same dungeons for 10 years

[Alroxas]

Yes, it's only relevant this tear and exactly my point going forward.
WoW should make this thing a permanent addition.

There have been ZERO indications that this "creation catalyst" system is moving forward in DF. So to assume that it would be is probably a bad idea. Sure we can all wish for Blizzard to do certain things, carry certain systems forward but unless they say it will, then I work with the fact that it's a system that only exists for the now.

I have no idea why you, at the very least, "act" like Raids have to be some kind of special place with special loot.

First, loot is specific to the kind of activity you're doing. High versatility is on PvP gear because players want that stat for PvP.

Second, in my example I was referring to a divide in gear based on LFR vs Normal+ raid. Especially when it comes to tier gear. Tier gear (traditionally) represents a power gain that exceeds the ilv difference so much so that even dropping to a lower item level piece (as long as it enables 2pc/4pc) is advantageous. In previous raid tiers (where the creation catalyst didn't exist), you saw normal+ raiders drop down to LFR in pursuit of the tier pieces.

Ultimately, I'm saying that this combination of LFR crowd and normal+ raiders breeds toxicity and makes the game less pleasant to play for both groups. Removal of these tier pieces from LFR (and you can substitute with a different set of tier specifically for LFR) solves this problem.

As I mentioned previously, we saw this play out in HFC back in WoD. The major negative of this system was that it reduced the overall number of players doing LFR which lead to longer queues.

If people only go there for gear, the system "Raid" failed.
The fact that people choose M+ over Raid already means that Raids are outdated the way they are.

I don't think raids are outdated, but rather the gear progression is imbalanced and should be re-examined for balancing.

Maybe that's the reason why Jailer parses are low as well. People are not doing it for the sake of raiding, but for the sake of gear.
Why do you want to force them into raids when they seemingly don't want to do it?

The jailer has low kill counts (and parses) because it's a fight that is very unrewarding. There's no tier that drops of the Jailer. The "unique" items that do drop off of him are not worth the effort it takes to kill him.

Players, generally, look at the path of least effort to gear up and progress their character. For Season 3 SL, the creation catalyst despite it's ability to counter bad luck in raid drops also created a scenario where players can shortcut past certain content. I don't believe Blizzard intended this behavior and so we're seeing a shift in Season 4 with the upgrade stuff for "fated" affix gear and also the new "fated" vendors as well.

If the goal happens to be gear - and everyone can do the content they like doing and achieve their goal, how does that breed toxicity and not just "bliss"

To put it simply, the goal is to get gear quickly. Normal+ raiders who are in LFR generally want a very quick run to see if they get "tier" or not. They aren't there to teach the raid and certainly don't want to spend time wiping on a boss which should be mostly trivia (in difficulty) compared to the normal+ versions that the raiders are typically facing.

Meanwhile, the general attitude of LFR crowd is more casual and not necessarily knowledgeable about the raid encounter. Far too often when I dip into LFR, you have tanks that are brand new to the raid and haven't even bothered to look in the in-game encounter journal (let alone do a cursory glance at a wowhead guide or a youtube video summary).

Case in point: In LFR, Lords of Dread - when the players with the green Cloud of Carrion debuffs actively run away from the players with the purple Bursting Dread debuff.

If I can get my missing pieces through a currency I farmed in a content that's more to my liking, how is that not the better solution? Why "force" me to do content I don't want to.

There have been calls to do exactly that. Have a deterministic loot system where you get a currency to "buy" whatever item you want. Generally speaking, the Devs have commented that is a feelsbad moment to finally defeat X boss and get a coin that you need to travel back to Y to trade for item Z.

I don't know if there is a good solution to that yet.

[Royru]

They're not marginal and they are very relevant especially with weapon mods like Adapt Big Ones.



Renewal Grasps, Star-Eater's Scales, Curias of the Falling Star, Lorlay Splendor, Boots of the Assembler, Necrotic Grips. Plenty of good ones.



A casual player doesn't even know what champion mods do, or the fact that they impact non-champion enemies. Add in the general lack of mods and a casual player cannot just do the hardest content.

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Exactly. Its about the equivalent of normal raid gear in wow. The two aren't comparable.

Adept weapons are not even in the same ballpark as the difference between ‘casual’ gear in wow and ‘hardcore’ gear in wow.

I do not have a single adept weapon that’s worth a crap. I do not use any of them. And I do some of the hardest content in destiny 2 with just my friend and no one else.

Adept weapons will almost never, ever, ever be the determining factor on if you can complete content or not. They are better, yes. But they are so significantly slightly better that it doesn’t matter. And depending on what you’re doing it might just be worse.



This is compared to the mod you literally just buy off of a guy for glimmer.

And most of the time the content you’re doing your adept weapons aren’t even going to be the ones you’re taking anyway.

Renewal Grasps, Star-Eater's Scales, Curias of the Falling Star, Lorlay Splendor, Boots of the Assembler, Necrotic Grips. Plenty of good ones.

All of these are obtainable for a casual. This is literally SOLO CONTENT. Solo content that you can our level by doing SUPER CASUAL dailies. Not to mention these aren’t even that great. Necrotic grips? Dude these are good in really low tier activities and that’s about it. You’re trolling of you’re using those in grandmasters. Even still, if these were meta, there are still other options that are just as good if not better that are literally just random drops from quable activities.

A casual player doesn't even know who champion mods do, or the fact that they impact non-champion enemies. Add in the general lack of mods and a casual player cannot just do the hardest content.

Causal does not mean brain dead.

I’m a casual player. I might get on two nights a weeks for 2 hours if I’m lucky. I have a top end build for 2 specs with 3x 100 stats and I complete every grandmaster every week 2 manning it.

Acting like adept weapons or weapons from raids are changing up your play style so drastically or that it’s some barrier to entry to anything in destiny is being extremely dishonest.

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Exactly. Its about the equivalent of normal raid gear in wow. The two aren't comparable.

No it absolutely is not. It’s comparable to having the highest tier of gear in wow, but maybe not the exact specific pieces you need. For example this is like having full tier 6 in sunwell, but you don’t have the trinket from ZA that’s your bis, but you still have BT trinkets.

[KrayZ33]

They're not marginal and they are very relevant especially with weapon mods like Adapt Big Ones.



Renewal Grasps, Star-Eater's Scales, Curias of the Falling Star, Lorlay Splendor, Boots of the Assembler, Necrotic Grips. Plenty of good ones.



A casual player doesn't even know what champion mods do, or the fact that they impact non-champion enemies. Add in the general lack of mods and a casual player cannot just do the hardest content.

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Exactly. Its about the equivalent of normal raid gear in wow. The two aren't comparable.

Is your definition of a casual a 90 year old grandpa?
If you think Destiny 2 requires any amount of dedication or loot other than eventually getting the Pinnacle upgrades you'd be wrong.
It really doesn't matter in the slightest.

Some Grandmasters are more difficult than others, but there aren't any weapons or exotics that carry a run, especially not a thing unachievable by "casuals". Anarchy did in the past... maybe. But that's long gone... and you could literally go and farm Conquest Marks by doing Vault of Glass and snooze through the first 3-4 chests or something with 3 players.
In fact, that's what my first run looked like.

There have been ZERO indications that this "creation catalyst" system is moving forward in DF. So to assume that it would be is probably a bad idea. Sure we can all wish for Blizzard to do certain things, carry certain systems forward but unless they say it will, then I work with the fact that it's a system that only exists for the now.

Hmm...
Other than Ion saying that they are looking for a way to continue getting Tier sets outside of raids?
You can *expect* something LIKE it going forward.

First, loot is specific to the kind of activity you're doing. High versatility is on PvP gear because players want that stat for PvP.

PvE and PvP are 2 very broad spectrums. And that's literally the only kind of equipment that's somewhat "streamlined" towards a specific type of content.
Everything you find in open world content or in raids or M+ is perfectly optimal to use in either system/content.
Even the PvP gear is. Versatility isn't a bad stat for everyone... or even many.

Second, in my example I was referring to a divide in gear based on LFR vs Normal+ raid. Especially when it comes to tier gear. Tier gear (traditionally) represents a power gain that exceeds the ilv difference so much so that even dropping to a lower item level piece (as long as it enables 2pc/4pc) is advantageous. In previous raid tiers (where the creation catalyst didn't exist), you saw normal+ raiders drop down to LFR in pursuit of the tier pieces.

Ultimately, I'm saying that this combination of LFR crowd and normal+ raiders breeds toxicity and makes the game less pleasant to play for both groups. Removal of these tier pieces from LFR (and you can substitute with a different set of tier specifically for LFR) solves this problem.

As I mentioned previously, we saw this play out in HFC back in WoD. The major negative of this system was that it reduced the overall number of players doing LFR which lead to longer queues.

As mentioned by me as well, more systems providing tier sets will also remove this "problem". Difference is, no one is excluded from anything and everyone can play what they want.

I don't think raids are outdated, but rather the gear progression is imbalanced and should be re-examined for balancing.


The jailer has low kill counts (and parses) because it's a fight that is very unrewarding. There's no tier that drops of the Jailer. The "unique" items that do drop off of him are not worth the effort it takes to kill him.

I don't think that is in any way whatsoever connected and a bold assumption imho. "Lets not do the Jailer, he doesn't drop any loot" Which kind of guild/raid group says that? And if that's the case, it tells me Raids aren't run for the raid/clear anymore which brings me back to the point that the system is outdated.
You are trying to get people to play content by giving rewards, instead of getting them to play the content because it's fun.
That's backwards thinking and led to the exact problem you are talking about with LFR/Normal+

Players, generally, look at the path of least effort to gear up and progress their character. For Season 3 SL, the creation catalyst despite it's ability to counter bad luck in raid drops also created a scenario where players can shortcut past certain content. I don't believe Blizzard intended this behavior and so we're seeing a shift in Season 4 with the upgrade stuff for "fated" affix gear and also the new "fated" vendors as well.

"I think making tier sets accessible to a variety of playstyles and also having, you know, as we mentioned earlier, kinda preplanning that kind of catch-up mechanics/RNG backstop that can come into play partway through the tier, that's something we're really happy with."

[Kirbydude65]

Adept weapons are not even in the same ballpark as the difference between ‘casual’ gear in wow and ‘hardcore’ gear in wow.

I do not have a single adept weapon that’s worth a crap. I do not use any of them. And I do some of the hardest content in destiny 2 with just my friend and no one else.

Adept weapons will almost never, ever, ever be the determining factor on if you can complete content or not. They are better, yes. But they are so significantly slightly better that it doesn’t matter. And depending on what you’re doing it might just be worse.

Your argument was that you could obtain BiS casually in Destiny 2. That's not true. Adpet weapons are 100% of the conversation about obtaining BiS especially with curated rolls. My Time Lost Fate Bringer gets plenty of work out and that's largely because the rolls are curated, and it allows for Adept Big Ones to help me in harder content. Arguing that Adept weapons aren't apart of BiS, is a fallacy

http://<a href="https://m.youtube.co...0wQasESnII</a>

This is compared to the mod you literally just buy off of a guy for glimmer.

And most of the time the content you’re doing your adept weapons aren’t even going to be the ones you’re taking anyway.

That video literally proved my point. If you could have a well rolled weapon that gets the same 7.7% damage increase across Majors, Bosses, and Vehicles with one mod (Versus two separate mods), it always going to better than a weapon that cannot use that mod. Quite literally BIS.


All of these are obtainable for a casual. This is literally SOLO CONTENT. Solo content that you can our level by doing SUPER CASUAL dailies. Not to mention these aren’t even that great. Necrotic grips? Dude these are good in really low tier activities and that’s about it.

You’re trolling of you’re using those in grandmasters. Even still, if these were meta, there are still other options that are just as good if not better that are literally just random drops from quable activities.

I've personally used Curias of the Falling Star, Renewal Grasps (Which is actually getting nerfed next patch because of how good it was), Star-Eater's Scales, and Ominoculus for GM nightfalls. Not one a single one of those is a throw pick of an exotic and in some cases (Like Omni) very meta. Lost Sector exotics are WAY better than you are giving them cred it for.

Causal does not mean brain dead.

I’m a casual player. I might get on two nights a weeks for 2 hours if I’m lucky. I have a top end build for 2 specs with 3x 100 stats and I complete every grandmaster every week 2 manning it.

Big Doubt. You spend a lot more time playing than you say you do if you have two sets of gear with X100 Stats. You're a player with less time, OR more likely, someone who spent an a lot of time upfront and now aren't logging in on the regular.

What you're asking for from WOW isn't a lower time investment, its content that can be done in smaller groups that gives similar progression to people doing 20 Man Mythic.

Acting like adept weapons or weapons from raids are changing up your play style so drastically or that it’s some barrier to entry to anything in destiny is being extremely dishonest.

And you're acting like a casual player is over here doing Grand Master Nightfalls, when that is not the case for the vast majority of players who would label themselves casual. The barrier to entry in Destiny's for hard content (Master Raids, Grand Master Nightfalls, Master Lost Sectors, Trials) all require a vast amount of knowledge(Builds, Enemy Spawn Locations, ect.), specific weapons and rolls for those weapons, and a vast collection of Mods that a casual player will not have access to.

And despite things like Raids (not master raids) being far easier than their WoW Counterparts, and providing immense power (DSC Weapons are still plenty powerful), especially with weapon crafting, only around 10-16% of players ever complete a raid. So even if you can get to max power level to start doing these activities, players aren't going, "Oh I can finally que for GMs or Master Vow!" They're happy running Psi Ops, Working on Triumphs, or for the next two weeks earning medals for the Guardian Games.

So why does retail WoW fall flat, when its giving you a full set of Normal Raid Gear as your progression, that can turned around do the vast majority of content in this game? Because people got KSM week 2 of Season 3 with optimized 252 gear from the previous patch with no double legendary or tier gear. Because the number isn't the same?

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No it absolutely is not. It’s comparable to having the highest tier of gear in wow, but maybe not the exact specific pieces you need. For example this is like having full tier 6 in sunwell, but you don’t have the trinket from ZA that’s your bis, but you still have BT trinkets.

Gearing you mean where it didn't make sense in TBC? Where the effort vs reward was laughable compared to Retail WoW? Where if you were a Shadow priest, Warlock or Frost Mage you went tailoring and didn't take Frozen Shadowweave off until Black Temple? No. We're never returning to a place where you never take off gear for the vast majority of an expansion. You might have an item or two like Old Warrior's Soul or Edge of Night, but it still requires a substantial effort.

If you wana argue for less of an item level cap than argue for that. But don't come in here saying Destiny 2 lets you get BiS doing casual content when it very clearly does not. It lets you become powerful in the same way Zerith Mortis gear allows you to become powerful in WoW alongside the Creation Catalyst.

An optimized player in Destiny 2 that would be considered BiS would put in probably more effort than a mythic raider has to in wow. Especially with the randomness of rolls.

[NineSpine]

Your argument was that you could obtain BiS casually in Destiny 2. That's not true. Adpet weapons are 100% of the conversation about obtaining BiS especially with curated rolls. My Time Lost Fate Bringer gets plenty of work out and that's largely because the rolls are curated, and it allows for Adept Big Ones to help me in harder content. Arguing that Adept weapons aren't apart of BiS, is a fallacy



That video literally proved my point. If you could have a well rolled weapon that gets the same 7.7% damage increase across Majors, Bosses, and Vehicles with one mod (Versus two separate mods), it always going to better than a weapon that cannot use that mod. Quite literally BIS.


All of these are obtainable for a casual. This is literally SOLO CONTENT. Solo content that you can our level by doing SUPER CASUAL dailies. Not to mention these aren’t even that great. Necrotic grips? Dude these are good in really low tier activities and that’s about it.



I've personally used Curias of the Falling Star, Renewal Grasps (Which is actually getting nerfed next patch because of how good it was), Star-Eater's Scales, and Ominoculus for GM nightfalls. Not one a single one of those is a throw pick of an exotic and in some cases (Like Omni) very meta. Lost Sector exotics are WAY better than you are giving them cred it for.





Big Doubt. You spend a lot more time playing than you say you do if you have two sets of gear with X100 Stats. You're a player with less time, OR more likely, someone who spent an a lot of time upfront and now aren't logging in on the regular.

What you're asking for from WOW isn't a lower time investment, its content that can be done in smaller groups that gives similar progression to people doing 20 Man Mythic.



And you're acting like a casual player is over here doing Grand Master Nightfalls, when that is not the case for the vast majority of players who would label themselves casual. The barrier to entry in Destiny's for hard content (Master Raids, Grand Master Nightfalls, Master Lost Sectors, Trials) all require a vast amount of knowledge(Builds, Enemy Spawn Locations, ect.), specific weapons and rolls for those weapons, and a vast collection of Mods that a casual player will not have access to.

And despite things like Raids (not master raids) being far easier than their WoW Counterparts, and providing immense power (DSC Weapons are still plenty powerful), especially with weapon crafting, only around 10-16% of players ever complete a raid. So even if you can get to max power level to start doing these activities, players aren't going, "Oh I can finally que for GMs or Master Vow!" They're happy running Psi Ops, Working on Triumphs, or for the next two weeks earning medals for the Guardian Games.

So why does retail WoW fall flat, when its giving you a full set of Normal Raid Gear as your progression, that can turned around do the vast majority of content in this game? Because people got KSM week 2 of Season 3 with optimized 252 gear from the previous patch with no double legendary or tier gear. Because the number isn't the same?

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Gearing you mean where it didn't make sense in TBC? Where the effort vs reward was laughable compared to Retail WoW? Where if you were a Shadow priest, Warlock or Frost Mage you went tailoring and didn't take Frozen Shadowweave off until Black Temple? No. We're never returning to a place where you never take off gear for the vast majority of an expansion. You might have an item or two like Old Warrior's Soul or Edge of Night, but it still requires a substantial effort.

If you wana argue for less of an item level cap than argue for that. But don't come in here saying Destiny 2 lets you get BiS doing casual content when it very clearly does not. It lets you become powerful in the same way Zerith Mortis gear allows you to become powerful in WoW alongside the Creation Catalyst.

An optimized player in Destiny 2 that would be considered BiS would put in probably more effort than a mythic raider has to in wow. Especially with the randomness of rolls.

The idea that the difference between having adept weapons and not having adept weapons is anything more than marginal is ludicrous. I have plenty of adept weapons and don't even use them that much because there are better alternatives half the time anyway. The idea that people struggle to complete GM nightfalls without adept weapons is a fucking joke.

[KrayZ33]

If you wana argue for less of an item level cap than argue for that. But don't come in here saying Destiny 2 lets you get BiS doing casual content when it very clearly does not. It lets you become powerful in the same way Zerith Mortis gear allows you to become powerful in WoW alongside the Creation Catalyst.

An optimized player in Destiny 2 that would be considered BiS would put in probably more effort than a mythic raider has to in wow. Especially with the randomness of rolls.

I mean... at this point you really are saying that "casuals" are just bad players that can't do any content that requires you to use both hands.
If you really think what I can get from strikes is so much worse than what you get in Raids/Grandmaster you are nuts man.
And people that can clear strikes can clear legend lost sectors.
What were you on about when you said that casuals don't know about champion mods btw. That's absolutely insane.
There is lot of casual seasonal content that "has" them. Do you really think if you have "6 casuals" in them these players start drooling and don't know what to do?

If you want to argue that Destiny BiS is (in terms of player power) like doing mythic raids and all the rest can just get "M+15 Vault quality gear" then maybe. Anything less however is just not real. Certainly not even close to the difference between WoW BiS players and ZM geared "twinks".