Everyone Has An Opinion About Warcraft

[Darsyek]

He didn't say it was an Ad Hominem argument. He said it feels like one. Big difference.
I can relate since it wasn't really much of an argument at all but rather just a mockery of what it was responding to.

Funny, not sure how something can "feel" like ad hominem while being the opposite of ad hominem without a fundamental misunderstanding of what ad hominem means.

Also you can say it wasn't much of an argument, but it quite literally is. It's an argument to the exact opposite of the opinions stated in the form of mockery. Judging from his reply, his opinion is that flying makes the game better in some ways. Now, I'm not going to try to argue for him, his opinion is his own, but regardless of the way he presented it, he was still making a counterpoint that stated he seemingly disagrees with the premise that flying is bad for the game. I may not agree with him, but he made a point and thus is quite literally making an argument. Just because the way he presented that argument might make you feel a bit uncomfy, it doesn't mean it's not still an argument.

[arkanon]

Funny, not sure how something can "feel" like ad hominem while being the opposite of ad hominem without a fundamental misunderstanding of what ad hominem means.

Also you can say it wasn't much of an argument, but it quite literally is. It's an argument to the exact opposite of the opinions stated in the form of mockery. Judging from his reply, his opinion is that flying makes the game better in some ways. Now, I'm not going to try to argue for him, his opinion is his own, but regardless of the way he presented it, he was still making a counterpoint that stated he seemingly disagrees with the premise that flying is bad for the game. I may not agree with him, but he made a point and thus is quite literally making an argument. Just because the way he presented that argument might make you feel a bit uncomfy, it doesn't mean it's not still an argument.

A: I like cats
B: I don't like cats
A: you can't say that, it's not a real argument, it's ad hominem.

Sums the discussion up pretty well I think. Let's be honest though, this is almost entirely a blog post with a wow related question tacked on as an afterthought to keep it wow related.

[Mardux]

See, this is a prime example of something to be discussed

It is a prime example of one of those logical fallacies you mentioned in your OP. It is dogmatism, plain and simple. I would ask you why anyone should bother responding in a constructive manner to such a blatant fallacy?

[Snufflupagus]

You're literally the next reply, the thread barely got started. You're now on the right track, which I can only encourage. When you replied with that first post though all you did was make a complete fool out of yourself. The other guy made a fool out of himself too, yes. But at least it wasn't in reply, which does make it worse because that reply is adding insult to injury, quite literally.

OP “if you had one post to take a position, what position would you take?”

Me: “expresses a position”.

I’m not the one making a fool of myself. Learn to read.

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It is a prime example of one of those logical fallacies you mentioned in your OP. It is dogmatism, plain and simple. I would ask you why anyone should bother responding in a constructive manner to such a blatant fallacy?

Well, this explains the tacit question behind the OPs post: why is discourse around WoW so unproductive? Because no one either reads or understands what’s being discussed. Mechagnome asked for people to state positions. I stated a position.

Stating a position is in no way dogmatic (it doesn’t even qualify for the term; dogmatism is a quality of argumentation not of individual views) it also can’t be fallacious, arguments can be fallacious. I was stating a position, inviting not building an argument. The level of discussion in this thread so far would barely pass muster in a seventh grade class.

[Evolixe]

OP “if you had one post to take a position, what position would you take?”

Me: “expresses a position”.

I’m not the one making a fool of myself. Learn to read.

I wasn't even replying to you but okay

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Funny, not sure how something can "feel" like ad hominem while being the opposite of ad hominem without a fundamental misunderstanding of what ad hominem means.

Also you can say it wasn't much of an argument, but it quite literally is. It's an argument to the exact opposite of the opinions stated in the form of mockery. Judging from his reply, his opinion is that flying makes the game better in some ways. Now, I'm not going to try to argue for him, his opinion is his own, but regardless of the way he presented it, he was still making a counterpoint that stated he seemingly disagrees with the premise that flying is bad for the game. I may not agree with him, but he made a point and thus is quite literally making an argument. Just because the way he presented that argument might make you feel a bit uncomfy, it doesn't mean it's not still an argument.

It's not an argument it's a statement. Arguments require a foundation, neither of those statements had that. He wasn't making a point at all, he was just stating his disagreement with the other guy by turning it around without going into what makes him think so. Both statements were silly in light of an argument, but at least the first guy didn't try to ridicule anyone.

[VMSmith]

As this thread is so elegantly pointing out, most people are only truly interested in scoring some internet points, not in having a discussion in which opposing viewpoints can be considerately discussed and opinions altered. The goal is to make the other person feel bad and give yourself a sense of superiority

Biomega is the only person to offer up an actual productive discussion and no one has taken them up on it

[Darsyek]

It's not an argument it's a statement. Arguments require a foundation, neither of those statements had that. He wasn't making a point at all, he was just stating his disagreement with the other guy by turning it around without going into what makes him think so. Both statements were silly in light of an argument, but at least the first guy didn't try to ridicule anyone.

How would you define an argument compared to a statement? Oxford defines an argument as, "an exchange of diverging or opposite views." Merriam-Webster defines an argument as, "the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing." They both certainly exchanged views or opinions, and they were very much so opposite to each other. What both lacked was explanations, reasonings, or evidence.

[Morae]

I long ago decided that when I post something on the internet, I will post it and then ignore any answers. Very few to no one wants to actually have sensible discussion. It is complete waste of time. Instead, I hope with each of these posts, there are people who agree with it and do the discussion for me.

Then again, I often write posts and probably only 1 in 10 or even less get actually posted when I delete it upon deciding, it isn't worth my time.

As for topics I'd like to discuss. There are many, but I'm so different that my opinions are undiscussable. I won't be replying to these, if someone gets annoyed I dare to have these opinions.

I liked old leveling. Now completely useless. Before it was good waste of time, but now it is only waste of time. I used it to merely relax and grind a character. I liked that it was mindless. There already existed many ways to basically skip it, but blizz then decided to remove it for everyone. I have probably made hundreds of alts in the past. Leveled to max level. Then deleted old one and started new. Over and over again to pass time. One could say you still can do that, but its so fast now that I can't even properly take my time or get the feel. Basically large portion of why I played the game is gone. In fact, most of it since I quit end game content entirely. This topic is impossible to discuss. I tried it in the past, but people don't even understand the point I make and offer nonsolutions. As far as I understand people don't even play that content and decide to tell that I shouldn't care about it either.

Mythic+ is hurting the game. It is a toxicity breeder and it wont go away. It is so 'easy' content that you are expected to do it. I simply detest everything about it. I do not want to do it so instead of doing it, I simply thought "no" and quit pve end game content. I used to be semi hardcore raider. Now I'm casual who at best does a few dailies at best. Blizz will never remove it. Probably not even fix it. At this point I have tossed that part of the game out of my mind. So I actually care mostly about the leveling question, if I was to answer what I'd like to discuss about.

[Evolixe]

I believe what oxford means with that exchange is that there is actual foundation, those explanations, reasonings and evidence you are talking about. That's the exchange.

What was stated wasn't an exchange of anything. It was just a show of "I think this."

[Maljinwo]

Blizzard is content to give out scraps of content and I got tired of it

[arkanon]

I believe what oxford means with that exchange is that there is actual foundation, those explanations, reasonings and evidence you are talking about. That's the exchange.

What was stated wasn't an exchange of anything. It was just a show of "I think this."

In a thread asking for opinions, stating an opinion isn't enough?

[Evolixe]

In a thread asking for opinions, stating an opinion isn't enough?

It calls for motivation and discussion, so no it isn't.

[arkanon]

It calls for motivation and discussion, so no it isn't.

My question to you: If you could create a post about ONE THING that means the most to you, what would it be about?

Just to help you understand what was actually asked.

[khazmodan]

I long ago decided that when I post something on the internet, I will post it and then ignore any answers. Very few to no one wants to actually have sensible discussion. It is complete waste of time. Instead, I hope with each of these posts, there are people who agree with it and do the discussion for me.

Then again, I often write posts and probably only 1 in 10 or even less get actually posted when I delete it upon deciding, it isn't worth my time.

As for topics I'd like to discuss. There are many, but I'm so different that my opinions are undiscussable. I won't be replying to these, if someone gets annoyed I dare to have these opinions.

I liked old leveling. Now completely useless. Before it was good waste of time, but now it is only waste of time. I used it to merely relax and grind a character. I liked that it was mindless. There already existed many ways to basically skip it, but blizz then decided to remove it for everyone. I have probably made hundreds of alts in the past. Leveled to max level. Then deleted old one and started new. Over and over again to pass time. One could say you still can do that, but its so fast now that I can't even properly take my time or get the feel. Basically large portion of why I played the game is gone. In fact, most of it since I quit end game content entirely. This topic is impossible to discuss. I tried it in the past, but people don't even understand the point I make and offer nonsolutions. As far as I understand people don't even play that content and decide to tell that I shouldn't care about it either.

Mythic+ is hurting the game. It is a toxicity breeder and it wont go away. It is so 'easy' content that you are expected to do it. I simply detest everything about it. I do not want to do it so instead of doing it, I simply thought "no" and quit pve end game content. I used to be semi hardcore raider. Now I'm casual who at best does a few dailies at best. Blizz will never remove it. Probably not even fix it. At this point I have tossed that part of the game out of my mind. So I actually care mostly about the leveling question, if I was to answer what I'd like to discuss about.

This actually stimulates my thinking on leveling and helps to crystalize it, I used to love leveling in WoW and I have leveled characters in all expansions going back to Vanilla. I don't know how much of this is rose colored glasses but the enjoyment seems to have fallen more with each expansion and BfA was the worst so far. I understand the end game players that hate leveling but they are not the only ones playing the game and now even they are leaving the game. Mythic+ is basically raiding for those that don't want to raid and that is fine but it has eliminated any reason to do lower dungeons and I personally liked just running a heroic while talking to buddies and getting some valor points to buy an item and have a little progression on my character.

The developers have only been listening to the no life loudest players and because of that the development of the game is either garbage wash rinse repeat cloned casual content or extremely complicated mechanics based fights that no longer feel worth it. WoW probably can't be saved at this point and barring a miracle save from Microsoft, will be shut down by 2026.

[arkanon]

I don't know how much of this is rose colored glasses but the enjoyment seems to have fallen more with each expansion and BfA was the worst so far. .

Its not rose tinted glasses for me - I really enjoyed leveling my characters in TBC Classic, and HATED leveling in BFA. And TBC is a shitshow, tbh.

[Tyris Flare]

This title mostly made me think of a friend who works at blizzard and says that any time he mentions he works on the game, he gets a 30 minute lecture from whoever he's talking to and it's really f****** tedious.

Basically imagine you worked on a set of some Star Wars production and every time you told someone that they gave you their lecture on why X is terrible. Would get old really quick!

[MoanaLisa]

1. Forums would not exist without people expressing opinions. That's what they're for.

2. Critical is not the same as critical thinking. Many are here to beat their well-beaten horses into the ground. Others are here mostly to sea-lion others. Some are here just to fight. All of that can be safely ignored but it's a fact that there isn't much left if you eliminate that.

3. My post would be about the introduction and rise of competition in PVE at the expense of co-operation. How this has hurt the game and what to do about it. Bragging rights are seen and admired by developers as some positive thing although bragging generally in real life is anti-social and people mostly hate it. All of this collectively leads to a game environment that in fact is generally more pleasant to experience alone for many than to engage with others. It's a serious problem in a game that is supposed to be social and collective and wrecks the experience for many. The social environment leans heavily towards exclusion as opposed to inclusion which is exactly the opposite of what it should be.

[WowIsDead64]

*puts on his nostalgic hat and rose colored glasses and inserts request

If you plan to roast me, at least read what it written first and ask clarifying questions. I don't mind the challenge.

First, let me acknowledge the idea that not every player starts or joins a combative conversation either here or in game. Some simply lurk as they do not want to paint a target on their back. Others, like myself, are not afraid of a little solid debate and passionate disagreement. These are a part of life, and are important aspects to healthy debate about games and their players. I feel as though personal opinion can still lead to productive conversation, even if it takes the occasional bump in the road because of (insert latin terms here), or simply the anonymity of the world wide web. None of us are the same, and will therefore have varying opinions about the game and each other.

So that begs the questions 'When will we go back to allowing other people to have an opinion? And when we do, will we use the rules for arguing like a gentleman?'. I mean, it is not a difficult concept. For those who have never heard of this prospect, you can read all about it here: The Lost Art of Civilized Discourse. Now, let me be clear, in the past I have been accused of trolling when simply telling the truth as I knew it, but I have also intentionally trolled just to be a dick. I feel like anyone with a single infraction on their account can say the same. However, when it comes to WoW, why are some posters vehemently defensive?

In almost every idea post here, or in the game itself, the author will either use, or have used against them a logical fallacy during the discourse of the conversation. Make no mistake, there are some horrible ideas presented in EVERY forum and in every game, just as there have been for the entire 18 years of WoW. There have also been some incredible posts, and I am not speaking personally of my own. I, like anyone else here who has posted an idea has made a few people cheer while simultaneously boiling the blood of others. I've been combative, dismissive, and patronizing. But, after 18 months away, I've come back with fresh eyes and see the people who love to fight, others who love to troll, and then those who only argue just to win every fight they are in.

My question to you: If you could create a post about ONE THING that means the most to you, what would it be about? Alternatively, if someone responds to your post here, are they doing it without Ad Hominem or any other logical fallacies? Did they take the time to ask clarifying questions to better understand your post?

These problems started around Cata, when Blizzard listened to casual players and nerfed overtuned dungeons, while admitting that 1:10:90:60 formula, i.e. 1% do Mythic (Heroic at that time) raids, 10% do any raids and other 89 don't raid at all, while around 60% are so casual, that they don't even do dungeons or unrated PVP. They kissed squirrels. So called "vocal minority" appeared at that moment. Hardcore players, who thought, that if they would yell loud enough and suppress casual feedback - Blizzard would never listen to casual players again. Yeah, they were "defending" hardcore Wow. And, you know, they succeeded, because Blizzard have been ignoring casual feedback for very long time. For example official forums were censored certain way. Back in old times any negative feedback and criticisms were straight censored. Auto-ban system was implemented then, that allowed some "native" forum minority to take control over forums and use report tool to suppress any other opinions. Because even if ban is lifted then, player usually doesn't want to risk any longer and stops posting anything. And of course some casual players started to react to this and "defend" casual Wow, appeared back in WotLK. So, real forum war started. And only "If you make game for 1% of playerbase - you will be left with 1% of playerbase" finally worked. Or may be it's M$, who said, that they don't want to buy dead game for 70$ billions, while guys like Ion were making game according to "We'd better bury it, than make it not as we want".

[Delekii]

This however is a prime example of mocking someone rather than offering an actual opinion.

It's both. The opinion being mocked is stupid and deserving of being mocked, while simultaneously being able to opine the opposite, not-stupid opinion.

The "lost art of civil discourse" is largely nonsense, because people are not remotely uncomfortable with overt lying anymore. You can't have any reasonable, logical discourse when people don't give a shit about lying.

Being civil does not lead to a productive discourse when one or both parties is so heavily invested in their own position that overt proof of its incorrectness isn't even remotely close enough to convince them to change their position. In fact, the most likely outcome of an attempt at civil discourse is an entrenchment of both sides, regardless of the content. I'd like to say Trump created this world for us, but I think he only brought it to the mainstream; it was in quiet development long before him.

People have now well and truly learned that the most effective way to argue when the goal is to get one's way is definitely not to have "civil" discourse; it's to yell your position repetitively until people believe you. Either you are correct, or the people supporting you are stupid, but the outcome is the same. There's such a large number of available stupid people that any argument will have the critical mass required to present itself as a "supported" argument.

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This title mostly made me think of a friend who works at blizzard and says that any time he mentions he works on the game, he gets a 30 minute lecture from whoever he's talking to and it's really f****** tedious.

Basically imagine you worked on a set of some Star Wars production and every time you told someone that they gave you their lecture on why X is terrible. Would get old really quick!

Maybe he should make a good game and stop fucking it up and people would stop lecturing him in the street?

[Snufflupagus]

But I did it for another reason: to show how easy it is to be hypocritical about such "opinions", as demonstrated by this reply… Which was directed only at me, NOT at the first guy who said "flying is bad", which was something with literally as much justification or explanation as my post but seems to have gone over to the audience with a round of silent nods and tacit agreement.

All right, slow down, smartypants. If you had taken the time to read and consider rather than galloping in guns blazing to make a point, you might have noticed that in fact the reply asking you to expand on your position was in fact written by “the first guy” with whom you were disagreeing. I didn’t question my own post not because I tacitly agree with it, but because I expressly agree with it because I wrote it.

THAT'S why I used mockery - to show that if you offer an opinion different from the populist paradigm you'll get questioned, while the opinion you different from isn't.

And in so doing demonstrated nothing more than that if you argue without attention to what you’re arguing against you look like a bit of a twit. The suggestion that “actually flying is good” is “different from the populist paradigm” barely deserves a mention, but the fact that literally one poster—again, me—has taken that position and several have taken the opposing one demonstrates that not only were you not reading the posts you engaged with, you evidently haven’t read anything else in the thread.

How do you propose to have a constructive exchange of views if all you do is post?

Then we get to your actual position, which I will sum up in standard form for ease of reading. Feel free to correct if I’ve missed anything.

Argument 1
P1. You want “content to be content”
P2. You do not believe getting-to-content is content.
Therefore,
C1. Anything that reduces getting-to-content in favour of doing-content is good.
P3. Flying reduces getting-to-content time.
Therefore,
C2. Flying is good.

Furthermore,

Argument 2
P4. There being danger is the world is acceptable.
P5. People accept other things that reduce the danger in the world (e.g. ground mounts)
Therefore,
C3. The difference between ground and flying mounts reducing danger is one of degree not category.
Therefore,
C4. People should accept flying mounts that reduce said danger by the same token that they accept ground mounts.

Furthermore,

Argument 3
P6. Anyone who doesn’t like flying doesn’t have to fly.
P7. Anyone who does like flying likes it because they don’t want to do the content flying invalidates.
[P8. People shouldn’t have to do things they don’t like].
Therefore,
C5. Flying is a good option to have.

From there your post devolves into a combination of unstructured and asinine that I won’t bother engage with; feel free to restructure it as a more coherent set of sensible points or not as the mood takes you. At any rate, the central point of it is well-stated as:

“Flying is bad for the game” is by and large just an excuse to take away OTHER people’s freedom to skip.

It’s not even that, it’s worse: “flying is bad for the game” is literally just saying “letting people skip is bad for the game”. I’m glad that you made that connection though: flying and skipping in this context are interchangeable. Flying is just a way to skip the game.

Now, on to your arguments.

Argument 1 rests on the supposition that “getting-to-content”, i.e moving around the world, is not “content” and should be got through as swiftly as possible. I’ve asked how you then justify not simply asking for an “instant teleport to location of choice” button. Why are you playing an open world game, not a lobby-based one? How do you account for open world games being enormously popular, when the key difference between open world and not-open-world games is that you need to move around them?

I think it is abundantly clear that in fact traversing the world is “content” for a whole genre of games, and perhaps you just don’t enjoy that genre. Regardless, once we abandon the ridiculous notion that moving around the world is not part of World of Warcraft this argument is untenable and can be discarded.

Argument 2 I’m perfectly happy to accept. I think the “danger in the world” needs to be rejiggered—there should be way less of it and it should be way more serious. Riding through hordes of randomly wandering wolves shouldn’t be a thing that happens, but getting waylaid off your mount by a wolf pouncing out of the forest (or chased by mounted bandits) should. Regardless, I don’t think flying mounts eliminating the “danger in the world” that ground mounts reduce is what makes them bad.

Argument 3 really gets at the root of the issue, though. Essentially you’re saying that flying is optional and options are just good. This is of course completely asinine in the context of game design: what if we added an optional vendor to Oribos selling mythic gear for copper? It’s optional, right? If you like raiding you don’t have to do it. You can still go and wipe and whatnot if you want.

Obviously that would be senseless: raiding and doing other challenging things to improve your gear is a central pillar of the MMO-RPG genre in general and WoW in particular. Letting people just skip the game would degrade it.

Equally, moving around the world—whether it’s challenging or not—is a central pillar of the open world game genre in general and was one of WoW (as one of the biggest open world games with the most diffuse leveling experiences) in particular. Letting people just skip a central pillar of the game’s identity degrades it.

So to move forward I would be interested to know:
1. Why do you play or take an interest in WoW rather than a lobby-based game?
2. Would you advocate for insta-teleports or just removing the necessity of the open world altogether? Can you articulate why not?
* Would you support vendors selling mythic gear, transmog, rare mounts, pets, achievements and titles, so that other people can skip things they don’t like? Can you articulate why not?