Everyone Has An Opinion About Warcraft

[Darsyek]

I believe what oxford means with that exchange is that there is actual foundation, those explanations, reasonings and evidence you are talking about. That's the exchange.

What was stated wasn't an exchange of anything. It was just a show of "I think this."

I'm not interested in what you "believe" Oxford means. Provide sources or citation if you want to assert your definition of an argument, not just personal belief. Oxford also defines exchange as, "an act of giving one thing and receiving another (especially of the same type or value) in return." An opinion was given. An opinion was received. Both opinions were of the same type or value, but in opposing viewpoints. By those two definitions, it's clear that it could be defined as a de facto argument, even if it was presented poorly on both sides at the beginning. Since then, both posters involved have provided explanations and reasonings behind their original comments. Do you still deny that an argument was had?

[MidnyteTV]

Bring back master looter for guilds only. Personal loot is cancer.

[arkanon]

Bring back master looter for guilds only. Personal loot is cancer.

how would you control/manage the "guilds only" part?

What about communities?

[VMSmith]

I suppose if I were going to list an opinion I hold that I'd like to see honestly discussed it would be:

"Dungeon Finder/LFR are the best additions to WoW since its inception, without which the game would almost certainly have collapsed into irrelevance long before now. The obsession of the design team to neuter these systems over the last four expansions, due to the mistaken belief that they discourage socialization, has been an experiment in seeing how long they can gradually increase the heat before the casual/solo frogs hop out of the pot."

3. My post would be about the introduction and rise of competition in PVE at the expense of co-operation. How this has hurt the game and what to do about it. Bragging rights are seen and admired by developers as some positive thing although bragging generally in real life is anti-social and people mostly hate it. All of this collectively leads to a game environment that in fact is generally more pleasant to experience alone for many than to engage with others. It's a serious problem in a game that is supposed to be social and collective and wrecks the experience for many. The social environment leans heavily towards exclusion as opposed to inclusion which is exactly the opposite of what it should be.

I've found that the most social MMOs are the ones that do the opposite of WoW and design so that other players are co-sojourners on an adventure rather than obstacles/annoyances/tools that you overcome and exploit to get what you actually want or compete with.

I never see any worthwhile conversation in WoW in any channel. But in games like STO and FFXIV the chat channels are alive with people talking about all manner of things and, over time, you get to know the people that regularly contribute.

[Biomega]

Argument 1 rests on the supposition that “getting-to-content”, i.e moving around the world, is not “content” and should be got through as swiftly as possible. I’ve asked how you then justify not simply asking for an “instant teleport to location of choice” button.

First of all, that's arguing towards extremes. Just because I want a more efficient way to travel doesn't automatically mean I want NO travel.

But even assuming so... Yes, I'd love more quick-travel options, absolutely. But flying is still more flexible than, say, a waypoint teleport system or whatever other equivalent that basically amounts to instant flight paths because it allows for freedom of movement. A totally free teleport system in the vein of say Diablo 2's Sorceress Teleport is impractical in a game like WoW for various technical and convenience reasons (it'd probably give people seizures, too).

Oh, and: you can flip this argument around, too. Why are people who are against flying mounts based on the idea that movement SHOULD be content not against ALL mounts? Surely you'd have even MORE content if you were forced to walk everywhere? But nobody seems to argue that way, because it's as ridiculous as the extreme you fell into.

Why are you playing an open world game, not a lobby-based one?

Because there isn't one that offers the kind of content that WoW offers. I'm disagreeing with certain aspects of the game; that doesn't mean I think the entire game isn't worth playing (in principle; I am not playing at the moment, but not for reasons related to flying). Clearly the people who are against flying also don't all quit because flying becomes available.

To go from "so you disagree with <one aspect>? WHY ARE YOU EVEN PLAYING THEN?" seems like a bit of an extreme form of arguing to me.

But to humor the notion: if there WAS a game that was kind of like WoW but had lobby-based content instead of an open world, I probably WOULD play it. That's basically how WoD was, you hung out in your Garrison until you got summoned to a raid or dungeon. I loved that.

How do you account for open world games being enormously popular, when the key difference between open world and not-open-world games is that you need to move around them?

This is what's called argumentum ad populum. I don't care what's more popular. I care about MY preference. Clearly not everyone shares it. I have reasons why I have that preference, and I'm giving and defending them. If we only went with popular=right we'd have a real mess on our hands. Besides: it's been almost half a century since product research realized that it's not about "the most popular", but rather about horizontal segmentation. This is a pretty nonsense argument even if you don't account for the fact that the market space is so homogenized there isn't really an alternative in the same space that ISN'T open world. (See above)

I think it is abundantly clear that in fact traversing the world is “content” for a whole genre of games, and perhaps you just don’t enjoy that genre.

That's a fallacious reduction. You're making two unproven assumptions: one, that traversing the world is a genre-defining characteristic; and two, that flying equals NOT traversing the world AT ALL, rather than just making it more efficient. Both are specious at best.

Regardless, once we abandon the ridiculous notion that moving around the world is not part of World of Warcraft this argument is untenable and can be discarded.

Good, because the only one with that notion seems to be you. I said "movement isn't content", not "movement isn't part of WoW". Those are far from the same thing.

Riding through hordes of randomly wandering wolves shouldn’t be a thing that happens, but getting waylaid off your mount by a wolf pouncing out of the forest (or chased by mounted bandits) should.

That's debatable. Recent experiments e.g. with The Maw have shown that people DON'T like constant danger when traveling around. They don't want to get jumped by randos when all they're there for is finishing their list of dailies or whatever. Nobody is going to fight them. They'll just keep running to the actual objective. There's enough to do in the game now without forcing random irrelevant encounters onto people while they're pursuing specific things. It's a distraction, and it makes them feel like they're wasting their time doing something unproductive.

Regardless, I don’t think flying mounts eliminating the “danger in the world” that ground mounts reduce is what makes them bad.

You may not think so and I may not think so, but it's one of the most common arguments people bring up.

Argument 3 really gets at the root of the issue, though. Essentially you’re saying that flying is optional and options are just good. This is of course completely asinine in the context of game design: what if we added an optional vendor to Oribos selling mythic gear for copper? It’s optional, right? If you like raiding you don’t have to do it. You can still go and wipe and whatnot if you want.

The only thing asinine here is that comparison, because it's an equivocation fallacy. You're comparing the efficiency of movement with THE primary reward motivator in the game. Most of WoW is about increasing character power or at least character progression; movement is a tool to get there, whereas gear is the GOAL. You can't just equate means and end willy-nilly.

Obviously that would be senseless: raiding and doing other challenging things to improve your gear is a central pillar of the MMO-RPG genre in general and WoW in particular. Letting people just skip the game would degrade it.

And yet somehow you thought that would make for a clever argument? Much confuse. Wow. Very puzzle.

Equally, moving around the world—whether it’s challenging or not—is a central pillar of the open world game genre in general and was one of WoW (as one of the biggest open world games with the most diffuse leveling experiences) in particular. Letting people just skip a central pillar of the game’s identity degrades it.

This is effectively the same as a previous argument, and flawed for the same two reasons: 1. it's not self-evident that open-world movement is genre-defining; and 2. it's fallacious to suggest that making movement MORE EFFICIENT is equal to it NOT BEING THERE AT ALL.

1. Why do you play or take an interest in WoW rather than a lobby-based game?

Because there isn't a lobby-based alternative that offers the things I like about WoW (in principle; I'm not actually currently playing, for reasons unrelated to flying). If there was, I'd probably play that.

2. Would you advocate for insta-teleports or just removing the necessity of the open world altogether? Can you articulate why not?

Yes, if technically feasible and practicable. WoW's engine probably wouldn't allow for full instant movement in the world. It would allow for some sort of waypoint-based instant travel system, which I would absolutely be in favor of. Heck anytime I play I half wish I was a Mage for precisely that reason; and truth be told, the recent additions of multiple instance teleports seems to suggest that Blizzard, too, thinks it's something we should have.

* Would you support vendors selling mythic gear, transmog, rare mounts, pets, achievements and titles, so that other people can skip things they don’t like? Can you articulate why not?

Because that's not the same thing. You're confusing means and ends, which is a category error.

[Kumorii]

how would you control/manage the "guilds only" part?

I assume when they add pugs to the group?

I would do it that it first rolls like personal loot. If it ends up at a pug he gets the item. If it ends up on any of the other players that's part of the guild using master loot it becomes a piece that will be distributed as master loot.

That way the pugs still have the same chance as before master loot was introduced and won't get fucked over by ninjas and guilds don't lose any piece of loot since the pug would've gotten it just like previously as well.

Think that solve the entire guild + pug issue.

4 pieces of loot. They get rolled. Turns out one of the pieces landed on a pug, the remaining 3 pieces will be master looted. Or 2 pieces landed on pugs and the remaining 2 will be master looted etc etc.

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Yes, if technically feasible and practicable. WoW's engine probably wouldn't allow for full instant movement in the world. It would allow for some sort of waypoint-based instant travel system, which I would absolutely be in favor of. Heck anytime I play I half wish I was a Mage for precisely that reason; and truth be told, the recent additions of multiple instance teleports seems to suggest that Blizzard, too, thinks it's something we should have.

What do you mean? It already supports it with various portals or triggers during scenarios that teleports you. There's no problem in adding the stuff that already exist to more points in the world. You even mention mages, it's not an engine limitation that makes mages able to teleport to just cities, it's by design.

[Lochton]

My question to you: If you could create a post about ONE THING that means the most to you, what would it be about? Alternatively, if someone responds to your post here, are they doing it without Ad Hominem or any other logical fallacies? Did they take the time to ask clarifying questions to better understand your post?

The need for adventure in the world, grappling hooks, teleports, flight or not, it is not the destination but the journey. It is partly an unpopular opinion due to the flight, and it is out of bounds due to wanting to expand the world more than the end game.

[Biomega]

What do you mean? It already supports it with various portals or triggers during scenarios that teleports you. There's no problem in adding the stuff that already exist to more points in the world. You even mention mages, it's not an engine limitation that makes mages able to teleport to just cities, it's by design.

That's not what I mean. I already said that's waypoint-based travel, and that's fine.

But what was suggested was ACTUAL free teleportation, i.e. the point-and-click kind to instantly go anywhere all the time at will. And that would just be a mess.

[Kumorii]

That's not what I mean. I already said that's waypoint-based travel, and that's fine.

But what was suggested was ACTUAL free teleportation, i.e. the point-and-click kind to instantly go anywhere all the time at will. And that would just be a mess.

Yeah, I never argued that... I argued that has nothing to do with engine limitation. Mage and scenario teleportation works JUST like how you describe on an engine level, they just have predetermined points for it.

We can make marks on map, so we can use mouse to get coordinates. And a teleport is just "move player to this map and these coordinates". So there's no problem to make a teleport that goes anywhere where you click. It's just designed that way as a gameplay aspect because they don't want players to be able to teleport to any point on the map; not because of an engine limitation.

In fact, I would say that literally every game in existence can implement "point and click teleportation" really easily. Probably the easiest movement to implement.

[Biomega]

It's just designed that way as a gameplay aspect because they don't want players to be able to teleport to any point on the map not because of an engine problem.

I don't know how the current engine handles things, but at least back in the day when you did this to excess there'd be a lot of problems - you could do this with cheats on the live game, or on private servers, and it was full of trouble.

But anyway, engine is only one problem with that; it also wouldn't be practicable because it would be confusing and vomit-inducing. Few games use that kind of movement, and it's a silly suggestion to begin with for all sorts of reasons.

[potis]

So that begs the questions 'When will we go back to allowing other people to have an opinion? And when we do, will we use the rules for arguing like a gentleman?'. I mean, it is not a difficult concept. For those who have never heard of this prospect, you can read all about it here: The Lost Art of Civilized Discourse. Now, let me be clear, in the past I have been accused of trolling when simply telling the truth as I knew it, but I have also intentionally trolled just to be a dick. I feel like anyone with a single infraction on their account can say the same. However, when it comes to WoW, why are some posters vehemently defensive?

The problem isnt having an opinion, the problem is your opinion must be shaped by knowledge toward the subject and not "feelings" or entitlement because you pay the game or because sometime 10 years ago you killed one boss extra, 10 months after you were supposed to, and you think you are some hot mega player.

Thats the only issue with forums like this, its like me going in a car forum, complaining about engine design like i have any fucking idea, because i drive a car.

Its basically like all these people on here, talking about the World First race and what the guilds should be or not be doing, while claiming they havent played for 5 years.

Thats why no one will ever take some "opinions" or posters on here seriously, cause

1)Most of the complainers dont show their character cause they know they will be exposed as being clueless because they cant possibly know if they never did anything remotely called progression.

2)The more serious players left on here are also toxic so the 1) players get defensive very quickly.

Now this is about the more difficult content discussions, the irrelevant things like, its 2022, why do we still have fucking flight paths is a legit discussion that anyone can partake in.

[Daedius]

Opinion in what regard, anything?

I love WoW's world building, it's earlier lore, and the art style and music... the art and music/sound department is typically fantastic.

Don't like the management of the game at all though, especially in the past half decade. Absolute joke if anything.

And the creeping in of treating the game like an F2P despite it being a P2P was rather off putting...

[Darsyek]

Bring back master looter for guilds only. Personal loot is cancer.

Hot take: It's not personal loot that's the problem, it's the arbitrary limitations imposed on it that are. If players could freely trade the items they looted, nearly all of the issues with personal loot are resolved.

[Evolixe]

I'm not interested in what you "believe" Oxford means. Provide sources or citation if you want to assert your definition of an argument, not just personal belief. Oxford also defines exchange as, "an act of giving one thing and receiving another (especially of the same type or value) in return." An opinion was given. An opinion was received. Both opinions were of the same type or value, but in opposing viewpoints. By those two definitions, it's clear that it could be defined as a de facto argument, even if it was presented poorly on both sides at the beginning. Since then, both posters involved have provided explanations and reasonings behind their original comments. Do you still deny that an argument was had?

You're literally using a logical fallacy here by asserting that I have to provide proof of your argument being false. Except that the burden of proof lies on you, since you made the argument. Just because it says x in the dictionary doesn't prove anything. You'd have to ask the people who made this article.

Anyway, "arguments" like this is exactly why people can't be bothered. Unless you're going to start actually following the OP's guideline I'm quite done talking to you.

[loras]

Finally a thread worth investing some time into.. maybe? OP's got the right idea at least.



Well you can argue your opinion but like the OP says you have to be willing to accept you may be wrong in your opinion.
If you're not willing to accept that you may be wrong then there is really no point in bringing it up.

As for the one thing that means the most to me? Eh we would have to get a bit too real for what i'm willing to lay out here I think.
Something in the game that means a lot to me is what we are getting in partial in 9.2.5. Cross faction gameplay.
However I also feel like without cross faction guilds the feature is incomplete and will not advance the game as far as it could when the game would truly be playable crossfaction.

One can always impose, as many people try, so there may still be a point. But that's the devil's advocate; i definitely agree that one should always be mindful of the possibility that they or their group's views on something may be completely wrong (though that extends to some things that are bombarded to "fact" as well).

[Evolixe]

One can always impose, as many people try, so there may still be a point. But that's the devil's advocate; i definitely agree that one should always be mindful of the possibility that they or their group's views on something may be completely wrong (though that extends to some things that are bombarded to "fact" as well).

Oh for sure. Sometimes we make new discoveries that completely change the way we think about things.
Basically proving all known knowledge about said subject to be wrong whilst they were believed to be factually true.

[Tyris Flare]

Maybe he should make a good game and stop fucking it up and people would stop lecturing him in the street?

How many people on a development team do you actually think have any influence over the game? The answer may surprise you.

[rrayy]

Offering an opinion means formulating it and expressing it in a genuine and defendable way. When you mock someone with the reversal of their own opinion, it feels less like an opinion and more like Ad Hominem.

But it is still an opinion. You can't discount it as one because you do not like the tone.

[VMSmith]

Hot take: It's not personal loot that's the problem, it's the arbitrary limitations imposed on it that are. If players could freely trade the items they looted, nearly all of the issues with personal loot are resolved.

Wouldn't that essentially re-create the initial problem that Personal Loot is intended to solve, meaning that the game might as well just go back to Master Loot? If Personal Loot becomes freely tradable then it's essentially Master Loot with extra steps because the rest of the group will pressure the recipient to hand it off to the person the group feels should most have it. Granted that the recipient could just keep the loot and go about their merry way (as the raid leads would almost certainly remove them), but Personal Loot prevents that because they literally cannot hand it off so why punish them for not doing so?

[OMGTwitchTV]

But it is still an opinion. You can't discount it as one because you do not like the tone.

noun: opinion; plural noun: opinions
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance"

- the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.
"the changing climate of opinion"
- an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.
"I had a higher opinion of myself than I deserved"
- a formal statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter.
"seeking a second opinion from a specialist"
- LAW
a formal statement of reasons for a judgment given.
a lawyer's advice on the merits of a case.

I have looked up the definition of opinion, and cannot fight the "to mock someone in their own words" section. In fact, I could not locate mocking under synonyms either. I feel everyone should have an opinion, but expressing it like a jerk doesn't make it an opinion. It makes it bullying, trolling, instigating... but not an opinion.

I'm looking for an honest and non-combative form of discourse. There was a time in this world when people would simply offer their opinion, and an actual conversation would occur. Attacking the person instead of the idea shows their inability to converse and their need to instantly strike at others, trying to force them to back down from their opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

The need for adventure in the world, grappling hooks, teleports, flight or not, it is not the destination but the journey. It is partly an unpopular opinion due to the flight, and it is out of bounds due to wanting to expand the world more than the end game.

At one time I suggested removing flight, and flight paths and putting a teleporter in every Inn in every zone. Once you "discover the Inn by talking to the InnKeeper, you can then ride your ground mount to any Inn and then open your map to teleport directly to any other Inn, the way you can teleport from The Shrine in Pandaria to the boat dock in Kalimdor near the Barrens. it could make for a great compromise.