Is it time to end gear gatekeeping?

[hulkgor]

lol, it's a video game. A piece of entertainment. There's no "deserves" to it.

Videogame accomplishments aren't a thing now?

[8bithamster]

lol, it's a video game. A piece of entertainment. There's no "deserves" to it.

So.. you are the same guy who demands an easy mode in Elden Ring, Dark souls etc? That explains so much

[VMSmith]

Videogame accomplishments aren't a thing now?

If you think anything you do in a videogame is an "accomplishment" and you are not earning a living from doing that thing, then yes, they aren't a thing.

When I was a kid we played Pac-Man on our Atari's because it was a fun diversion, not because we wanted to strut how awesome we were at chasing pixelated ghosts around a screen

Thinking something you did in a videogame, ostensibly for "fun", is an achievement is akin to thinking you accomplished something noteworthy by watching a TV show. It's all entertainment meant to enrich our lives beyond the actual work we do to provide for ourselves.

So.. you are the same guy who demands an easy mode in Elden Ring, Dark souls etc? That explains so much

How did you get into my brain and decide what I "demand"? Are you telepathic and can read minds?

Or, more likely, you don't know jack about me and what I want or don't want.

I don't play Elden Ring or Dark Souls because I've never seen them as appealing. If I did play them I'd either enjoy them or not at whatever difficulty settings are available. If I beat them I wouldn't feel like I accomplished some major thing other than a temporary nice feeling of completing something and then I'd move on to the next thing. Because they are games, not life goals.

But since this thread is about gear gatekeeping, do those games gate gear behind difficulty and tell players that they must play a certain way or they get lesser rewards? Do they sort out the "deserved" players from the "lazy, entitled" players and reward them accordingly? Or are they simply difficult games that someone can pick up or put down at their leisure and enjoy as they please?

[potis]

Or are they simply difficult games that someone can pick up or put down at their leisure and enjoy as they please?

No one forces you to pay for WoW, its a decision you make after knowing its a gear chasing raiding simulator.

If you still know this and choose to remain subbed after you are done with whatever low brain power content you wanna do, thats on you.

[8bithamster]

If you think anything you do in a videogame is an "accomplishment" and you are not earning a living from doing that thing, then yes, they aren't a thing.

When I was a kid we played Pac-Man on our Atari's because it was a fun diversion, not because we wanted to strut how awesome we were at chasing pixelated ghosts around a screen

Thinking something you did in a videogame, ostensibly for "fun", is an achievement is akin to thinking you accomplished something noteworthy by watching a TV show. It's all entertainment meant to enrich our lives beyond the actual work we do to provide for ourselves.



How did you get into my brain and decide what I "demand"? Are you telepathic and can read minds?

Or, more likely, you don't know jack about me and what I want or don't want.

I don't play Elden Ring or Dark Souls because I've never seen them as appealing. If I did play them I'd either enjoy them or not at whatever difficulty settings are available. If I beat them I wouldn't feel like I accomplished some major thing other than a temporary nice feeling of completing something and then I'd move on to the next thing. Because they are games, not life goals.

But since this thread is about gear gatekeeping, do those games gate gear behind difficulty and tell players that they must play a certain way or they get lesser rewards? Do they sort out the "deserved" players from the "lazy, entitled" players and reward them accordingly? Or are they simply difficult games that someone can pick up or put down at their leisure and enjoy as they please?

If you want free gear for just killing 20 gnolls, WoW isn't for you. You already can get full 252 and 2x 291 by doing world content. What more do you need? What more gear do you need, or deserve for content that's not as coordinated or challenging as other people do? What do you deserve more?

[Goatfish]

lol, it's a video game. A piece of entertainment. There's no "deserves" to it.

Should people not get paid or earn awards for acting? Or playing chess? Or really any sports?

If your argument is that entertainment is worthless then you're picking a big fight with society.

[bullseyed]

Your ego seems quite hurt over the fact that you cant reach the same level of gear as those people who are better at the game. You also seem to care a lot since them having better gear makes you so angry and insecure.

I am happy in my WQ shit gear and I have no problem that those people who are better players than you and me have better gear.

Further, the only reason to have M Raid gear is to do M Raids and high keys... which people who don't do those things have no use for anyway.

It's like buying a lifted off-road vehicle to commute in NYC.

[Zenfoldor]

Gearing has become irrelevant in this game, at least in context to earlier expansions.
Gear in the old days of classic, used to carry a gravitas and a sense of prestige.

Now gear is just something to be discarded with each new season.
It is cheap, expendable, and is relatively easy to do for mythic raiders/plus'ers, and high end pvp'ers.

Because of this, I would assume that the majority of players in high end content are pursuing these goals because of the intrinsic fun involved in the activities, along with bonus titles and mounts.

My question is, does giving max ilvl gear to world/daily questers take away from the experience of high end players, or do they even care?

This seems to assume that the current state of the game is satisfactory. The bolding in the above quote was done by me to highlight the line in question.

My assertion is that in this case, the "majority of players" in the current game is only a faction of the total player base Blizzard would be targeting with a new expansion. Thus, if the current "majority of players" is satisfied with these end game activities sans gear, that is interesting, but unfortunately irrelevant.

Instead, we could be asking if the majority of potential players(the target audience for a new expansion) is okay with end game activities sans reward.

We don't ask that, because we know the answer. It is no. Repetitious end game activities need to be incentivized in some fashion, in order to promote repeat playthroughs. Historically this was done with gear. The incentives simply have to appeal to those players more than skipping the raid and eating ice cream and watching anime. Skipping a raid week because it is boring is probably the number one catalyst for raiders to drop the game and "pick it up later," just a guess.

For most potential players, I would guess that "for fun" is not a universal incentive in this game. The gameplay when it is at its peak can carry it some, but not entirely. Even those that find it fun now, might have never tried it, without a proper gameplay incentivization breadcrumb leading the way. The gameplay in this game nor the setpieces nor the genre are the ideal type to promote repeat activities for fun. Games with varied gameplay often require less incentivization, which if you think about it, is the exact opposite of a game where you create muscle memory to repeat a priority rotation. Even those games, like Hades, still heavily incentivize you through the deeper heats...no, WoW isn't a special case, it can't get by with grinding for fun.

[munkeyinorbit]

completly wrong,having better gear makes a huge difference,try doing the new zones quest with green gear from 9.0...have fun not being able to kill anything

If you're running around in 9.0 greens then you don't deserve to be doing any content in the new zones. What's that sort of ilvl? 130? Do the campaign. It takes 4 hours. Bam 200ilvl. Do the next campaign. Bam 220 ilvl. Now you're ready.

What you're suggesting is like running around in LFR 9.0 and then getting upset that you can't enter the latest LFR. It's just a ridiculous argument.

[Coldkil]

So Bob the world quester deserves exactly the same gear as the group of 20 who put more time in the game?
Did we seriously get this entitled?

Nobody but you is stopping you from doing the content. So maybe instead of demanding everyone to bow to your will, you take a look at how you can adapt?

So James the 15s runner deserves exactly the same gear as the group of 20 who put more time in the game?

[Gamingsince1981]

Elden rings most downloaded mod gives you cheats like infinite health, you honestly think most people play it legitimately?

Most gamers play games to have fun not to stress out over challenge.

[Osmeric]

So James the 15s runner deserves exactly the same gear as the group of 20 who put more time in the game?

"Deserves" is entirely artificial. Players deserve whatever the game designers have constructed the game to reward.

What matters is what level of reward leads to retention of players.

[Coldkil]

If m+15 are so easy, then everyone can just do that. No need to give max gear to world quests then.

They are, so most people do them for easier gear. I don't see the numbers of M+ in Mythic raids.

- - - Updated - - -

"Deserves" is entirely artificial. Players deserve whatever the game designers have constructed the game to reward.

What matters is what level of reward leads to retention of players.

Oh, fully agree. Was just answering to the guy that said "people who play the game don't deserve gear".

For context, for the Nth time, open world gear just needs to be staggered on a large time window. I dont see any issue in 272ilvl rewards from WQs 3 months in.

- - - Updated - - -

-snip-

Imagine not even getting my point.

People get mad at other getting their same gear for doing stuff easier than mythic raids, yet they do stuff easier than mythic raids to get the same gear.

[Finlandia WOAT]

Why shouldn't Cutting Edge raiders get the best gear?

[Elbob]

Imagine not even getting my point.

People get mad at other getting their same gear for doing stuff easier than mythic raids, yet they do stuff easier than mythic raids to get the same gear.

its not that i don't get it, its that its bad. 15's give proper rewards, wq's give proper level rewards. If 15's or WQ's gave 278 people would have a right to be annoyed. People like being justly rewarded for hard work and being overly rewarded for minimal work cheapens the rewards.

[Osmeric]

Why shouldn't Cutting Edge raiders get the best gear?

Why should only they (and/or perhaps some other very small minority) get the best gear? Does that actually positively affect overall player retention? If not, why should the game be designed that way?

[Rozz]

I'm torn.

I personally wouldn't mind treating gear like cosmetic rewards for defeating certain bosses. Mythic gear could give special effects you could use throughout the game. ex: cloaks that let your character fly without a mount, a ring that lets you mind 1 control non-boss elite NPCs, boots that make you untrackable on a map, etc.

But I'm not exactly sure how much that would change the game for most people. It could go fine or just feel like an entirely different game.

[BeepBoo]

Game should be less about rewards and more just doing the content because you enjoy doing it. I typically like pve content way more than pvp, but pvp players have the right mindset IMO. They just enjoy beating the shit out of other people and couldn't care less about the rewards. PVE players should take a lesson from them in that department.

"But raids will get stale!" Good! Come back in a few months when they release the next content drop if you want, or push them to make more stuff faster. OR just have fun fucking raiding for the sake of raiding and hanging out with friends.

I've given up every repeat grind game at this point. Destiny seasons and chasing pinnacle cap? GFYS.
Wow expansions and tiers having to get lucky with shit all over again? Bitch why.
PoE resets every new "league"? Never again.

I'm fine with doing it like one time in a single player RPG. It's important to the experience. But we've all been through the same top-tier grindfest 100 times already. it doesn't fucking matter. It's pointless repetition.

[Finlandia WOAT]

Why should only they (and/or perhaps some other very small minority) get the best gear? Does that actually positively affect overall player retention? If not, why should the game be designed that way?

You didn't answer my question. Are you saying that giving WQ players same ilvl gear as Cutting Edge raiders will increase player retention? Based on what?

[VMSmith]

If you want free gear for just killing 20 gnolls, WoW isn't for you. You already can get full 252 and 2x 291 by doing world content. What more do you need? What more gear do you need, or deserve for content that's not as coordinated or challenging as other people do? What do you deserve more?

What does this unhinged rant have to do with anything I actually said, that you quoted?

I mean, go off if it makes you feel good about yourself but I'm not going to bother with you any further so long as you are creating a position for me that I have not expressed that you can then screech about.

Should people not get paid or earn awards for acting? Or playing chess? Or really any sports?

If your argument is that entertainment is worthless then you're picking a big fight with society.

Nope, haven't said any of that at all. Which you'd know if you'd actually read anything I posted.

I have specifically said that if you are making money at something then that's great, that's something worthwhile.

But just playing? Nah. That's watching TV levels of accomplishment. Playing chess in the park is for personal enjoyment, not to strut around the park with chess medals. Same with sports. If you and your buddies play backyard football, literally no one is impressed that you scored ten touchdowns. Or that you dunked on Jimmy from down the block.

I never said entertainment is worthless, I said it's not an accomplishment. So how about you folk try arguing against what I've actually said rather than the strawmen you erect in your minds.

WoW isn't for you

It's interesting that the gear gatekeepers keep resorting to this argument. They take their masks off so frequently to expose that what they really want is for everyone they deem lesser than themselves to just go away. They make no bones about the fact that they want WoW to have as small a population as possible, made up of only people like themselves.

And then claim they are not gatekeepers or elitists