How WoW could have been, if only...

[Zodiark]

As mentioned by others, exploring new world and uodating old zones can coexist in the same game.

While people is more a fan of one or the other, doesn't mean there couldn't be both. In fact, after so many cosmic menaces, we're returning to Azeroth.

Even if story lately wasn't good, we have encountered many different antagonists and different aspects of the lore that can lead to new adventures. Staying in the same place can only lead you so far.

Yes and no. Yes you can have new zones while updating older ones. However I disagree with staying in the same place can only lead you so far. There could be new quests added with interconnectivity that could lead to a whole myriad of new adventures within old zones by adding in different encounters, etc.

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See to me WoW was always this high fantasy type world. Guns existing in high fantasy worlds is fine with me so long as it doesn't devolve too much into a steampunk heavy world. Not that anything is wrong with that in a different type of game. But when I think of Pirates I always associate them with flintlocks, and cannons, etc. Dwarven Hunters wielding muskets aren't a bad fantasy either. It just comes down to what your thing is. WoW's magic is that it allowed you to play whatever fantasy you pictured for your own character.

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No, you were not clear. You are all over the fucking place and you don't make any sense.


How can you argue heroes being killed off and gone forever, and 2 of your examples are actually examples of characters COMING BACK. Coming back TWICE EVEN.


Illidan died at the end of WC3. He was announced as alive in vanilla WoW and returned in TBC.
Illidan died at the end of TBC and came back in Legion.

Vol'jin died at the beginning of Legion. He returned as an active, participating lore character in BfA. As well as SL.


Your examples are bad.


And now you're trying to tie this to the fact that just because you don't like what has been revealed thus far in DF, that Blizzard has lost sight and DF is inherently bad? You claim that the community didn't ask for a new playable race or new playable class? You claim the reveal of DF hasn't also revealed a "big goal" for the expansion?


^That being said, what does that even have to do with your weird MCU character reasoning?


You are spouting off nonsense that has no common point, other than opinion you can't explain. So I'll repost what I said to you earlier:

Yeah I more or less agree with your post myself. As mentioned for me WoW was always about creating your own fantasy. People dying in a fantasy world and coming back is old news. I don't know what this guy is on about. Also creating and playing a Dragon-esq character is actually a cool idea to me and I'm sure to many others, just as I'm sure it's not for everyone. But playing the game how you like and making the different characters and fantasy tropes your own has always been one of WoW's biggest draws.

[Coldkil]

Yes and no. Yes you can have new zones while updating older ones. However I disagree with staying in the same place can only lead you so far. There could be new quests added with interconnectivity that could lead to a whole myriad of new adventures within old zones by adding in different encounters, etc.

I was talking about players perception. What you say it's true, but people want new stuff to see over time, and you need completely new zones and environments from time to time. Pandaria or Broken Isles were awesome and i want to see more stuff like that. Hopium for DF is at an all time high for me.

[Bloodbayne]

Except for the part where fans of Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 before you WoW players came along wanted to see Outland and Northrend. Still, I do see what you're getting at. I always figured we could see the "other side" of Outland or maybe even other "chunks" of the planet. You see stuff like this with games like 76 where they just add a new hole somewhere that leads to a dungeon you didn't realize was there. Could be good. I think that's what the experiment is with the new dungeon attached to Uldaman.

[Dancaris]

You face diff problem. It will be necessity to draw 3-4 times of same location - that will bring us less new zones, and more phazing - so more tech pressure to servers.
Am I want it? Yes.
Will they do it? Nope.

[shise]

I´d say up to Wrath it was good. Cata could have been a transition phase and then the world revamp could have easily waited one more expansion... with better tech. Then The world revamp could have been a deep detail of the existing map. I think MoP was really good tho, it was easily the best thing WoW experieced together with BC and Wrath: pvp, pve, lore, questing and dungeon´s wise.

They could have developed the existing world over a few expansions... But at some point around Wrath the greedy machine started ticking lauder than the dev´s love for the game :/ That meant instant products instead of long term development was at prime.

[Flurryfang]

I think this is a design idea, that kinda only works in hindsight. Because that kind of tech, the phasing tech, was not really in place before Cata and that was only barely.

That said, if Blizzard had done this after Cata, choosing to go in the expanding direction instead of the self-contained direction, we would be in a different place today than before.

But then again, after the uproar from people after Cata changed the old world, maybe it did not seem like a good idea to change even more of what already was.

[crusadernero]

I've always said that Blizzard should have a dedicated team that creates and evolve the world, prefferably in EK/K. But, realistically it can be in whatever xpac/zone. They can create small & big questlines, tie them to new dungeons or alter older ones to fit the story/quests. There are things like this already in the game, but its not really that good.

This content could reward items, mounts, titles or sometimes simply just a cool story & lore. Nothing huge, just something happening out in the world.

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I´d say up to Wrath it was good. Cata could have been a transition phase and then the world revamp could have easily waited one more expansion... with better tech. Then The world revamp could have been a deep detail of the existing map. I think MoP was really good tho, it was easily the best thing WoW experieced together with BC and Wrath: pvp, pve, lore, questing and dungeon´s wise.

They could have developed the existing world over a few expansions... But at some point around Wrath the greedy machine started ticking lauder than the dev´s love for the game :/ That meant instant products instead of long term development was at prime.

I have always found it weird that they did a total world revamp already in Cata. Sure, it fitted the xpac theme but they could have chosen a different path after WotLK without any issues whatsoever. Always felt the revamp was to soon. The old world aint THAT bad and if they had added quest trackers and done certain tweaks to zones/quests, it would be fine.

[shise]

I've always said that Blizzard should have a dedicated team that creates and evolve the world, prefferably in EK/K. But, realistically it can be in whatever xpac/zone. They can create small & big questlines, tie them to new dungeons or alter older ones to fit the story/quests. There are things like this already in the game, but its not really that good.

This content could reward items, mounts, titles or sometimes simply just a cool story & lore. Nothing huge, just something happening out in the world.

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I have always found it weird that they did a total world revamp already in Cata. Sure, it fitted the xpac theme but they could have chosen a different path after WotLK without any issues whatsoever. Always felt the revamp was to soon. The old world aint THAT bad and if they had added quest trackers and done certain tweaks to zones/quests, it would be fine.

Yeah. A few voices said that the old leveling was getting old... but it wasn´t that old.

[crusadernero]

Yeah. A few voices said that the old leveling was getting old... but it wasn´t that old.

I can understand why ppl thought that, but looking back now.. It wasnt really that required. Also, it was a missed opportunity for Blizzard cause they could have done alot more with it.

[Zodiark]

I was talking about players perception. What you say it's true, but people want new stuff to see over time, and you need completely new zones and environments from time to time. Pandaria or Broken Isles were awesome and i want to see more stuff like that. Hopium for DF is at an all time high for me.

Well that's kinda where I was going with that comment. That development of older zones could create new stuff to see also. Think about it. New dungeons in areas that were basically un-used. Maybe developing a new weather system that could add some survival elements to the game, there are many options that I think could have been explored. Yes new areas are always good. But creating throw away zones that have no real central storyline and only become quest fodder after the expac isn't relevant anymore doesn't do the game any favors either.

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I can understand why ppl thought that, but looking back now.. It wasnt really that required. Also, it was a missed opportunity for Blizzard cause they could have done alot more with it.

I Agree. People complained about the old leveling systems. Some things could have and should have been improved but everyone wasn't that old, or bad. The classic community is fairly large. That tells me that players WANT more challenge from the game. The game went in a direction to make everything easy and accessible but in the process didn't leave enough challenge within the journey to make that path feel truly meaningful anymore. Meanwhile games like FFXIV try to make the journey enjoyable to the point you feel bad by the time you make it to the end game because you can't believe its finally over. Whereas in WoW players can't wait to power to end game. That doesn't mean there won't be outliers, players that just want to Raid end game content. But for the vast majority the game should BE about that path towards the end.

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Except for the part where fans of Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 before you WoW players came along wanted to see Outland and Northrend. Still, I do see what you're getting at. I always figured we could see the "other side" of Outland or maybe even other "chunks" of the planet. You see stuff like this with games like 76 where they just add a new hole somewhere that leads to a dungeon you didn't realize was there. Could be good. I think that's what the experiment is with the new dungeon attached to Uldaman.

I played a little of WC1 and 2. I'm sure there were more players who at the time wanted to see outland and Northrend. Northrend was basically the place where the culmination of the WC3 storyline was to take place. WC3 was the game that hooked me into the world of Azeroth in the first place, as well as many others.

I think that the experiment you speak of might be a good thing with Uldaman. This was more or less my thought entirely. Expand upon existing dungeons. Maybe the defias brotherhood have decided to search within the Deadmines and found a new cavern system that leads underneath Stormwind. Perhaps this is even connected to the Stockades where you can have a whole new divergent dungeon experience! Who knows? But not forgetting these old haunts by expanding upon them could only make the game richer for it.

[crusadernero]

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I Agree. People complained about the old leveling systems. Some things could have and should have been improved but everyone wasn't that old, or bad. The classic community is fairly large. That tells me that players WANT more challenge from the game. The game went in a direction to make everything easy and accessible but in the process didn't leave enough challenge within the journey to make that path feel truly meaningful anymore. Meanwhile games like FFXIV try to make the journey enjoyable to the point you feel bad by the time you make it to the end game because you can't believe its finally over. Whereas in WoW players can't wait to power to end game. That doesn't mean there won't be outliers, players that just want to Raid end game content. But for the vast majority the game should BE about that path towards the end.

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Yeah, the leveling process have been looked upon for years as something to get over with quickly. As such, is a streamlined questing experience with next to nothing of challenge. They removed the sense of danger and challenge in the world, so one would think they replace it with something. As I see it, Blizzard has tried to replace that with more focus on storylines & narrative. Has it been a success? I wouldnt really say so. Its not a GREAT story experience in most xpac zones. Parts are good, but for the most part..

I think theres something to be said about having a challenging world out there again. A feeling of exploration. Now ppl rush to max lvl and start complaining about nothing to do in the world, when they themself despise the leveling - that takes place in the world.

[Farora]

I think Wow was doomed from the start, simply because the company creating it changes over time. And in the case of Blizzard, in a horrible direction. Modern Wow has lost about -everything- that made it great to begin with. Playing Classic makes that painfully obvious.

Your idea makes sense, but adding new worlds was also a good idea. It could be a combination of both.

[Adamas102]

Hmm. To be honest I'm not just taking what people in WoW want alone. In life generally people like self expression and being part of a community. So if that's what people want IRL then they could want the same things in WoW. Even though WoW is just a game, it's part of reality. Just because it's a video game doesnt make it exempt from life.

I would disagree with this. Or at least point out that it's a very personal way of approaching the game, not a mentality held much of the player base. If anything, having strong communities that I'm part of IRL makes me a lot less likely to seek them out in a game. To me, WoW is very much JUST a game, one that I play purely for fun and doesn't command any of the pride, commitment, or care that I have for my IRL activities with family, friends, and coworkers.

More community is not something I desire out of the game.

[Kilpi]

This kind of stuff would be a lot more interesting. It's also one of the reasons why I would love a proper singler player RPG in Warcraft universe, set after WC3/TFT (so kinda the same starting point as WoW originally), but instead of stuff going cosmic, it would be just actual Azeroth problems. The most cosmic thing would be Outland, (old school) Burning Legion and hints, rumors and glimpses of titans and old gods.

Would've also worked nicely in WoW itself, since then content patches and expansions could just update existing zones all the time, with same or less work than completely new zones (and new zones could still be added, like we have gotten new areas in Azeroth).

[Fitsu]

Just a note: This thread is mainly just brainstorming ideas. Nothing I mention in any comment is something I feel SHOULD absolutely be implemented. Just some things that help create a more vibrant world that brings players back to the original fantasy that made WoW what it was in the first place.

If only WoW had went in another direction since Vanilla. Imagine if you will WoW expanded more inwards than outwards?

Let that sink in for a minute.

What if WoW utilized their phasing technology and built expansions that fleshed out the zones more, added new dungeons to existing zones, new enemies, NPC's etc, while still respecting the old ones? Help and NPC who is fighting off Kobolds from raiding his farm, he thanks you and that's that. Then after the expansion you get a letter from that NPC requesting your aid yet again. Those nasty Kobolds are at it again, this time they have tunneled under the farmers crops. You take care of business and are on your way. But wait there's more! What if during the quest you discover a tunnel deep within the makeshift tunnels the pesky Kobolds made. This tunnel leads deeper still to a forgotten grotto where magical barriers thought long forgotten still stand vigil over this long lost area of travel. You bring this to the attention of your local mage guild/wiseman, etc and it gets looked into.

Later down the line some expansions later, You receive word that those barriers are now able to be broken and a new party is forming to explore what lies beyond! Come join us Hero!

This type of content would not forget about the people you've helped before and make the world feel more rich and vibrant and alive. This is just one example. Imagine seeing actual progress in zones you helped, etc. If you join someone else on a different layer of advancement then you are simply given a warning box that explains this is a possible spoiler or some such, etc.

Right now WoW since Vanilla has made each new expansion a self contained game. This is part of what has slowed down development I believe. If only WoW had went into a different direction of building each expansion inwards instead of outwards then it doesn't mean that there could be no new zones, just that they would come slower and when it made sense to do so, while not abandoning the old ones.

It's very much a niche market who really care about the roleplay side of an MMO and I highly doubt the game would be in any better state because of this. WoW isn't in a bad state because of any one decision, it's in a bad state because Blizzard aren't making a game anymore they are making a tactical money-making machine. They implement boring busy work to keep people playing, they implement clearly broken mechanics with easy fixes to "fix" in patches as the expansion goes on.

The games bad because fun is no longer a priority for the devs.

[Zodiark]

From an RPG pov I always thought it doesn’t make sense that the zones we “freed” are still fighting year in year out, same old same old.

Obviously it would have been impossible to fix each zone separately or come back to it when phasing was finally existent, still the way they burn through old content led to a massive world that is mostly accessible by teleports and more or less doesn’t make sense in between zones since it’s mostly like time traveling plus continent hopping plus defeated enemies that are still everywhere undefeated.

Some good ideas in this thread though:
1. The failure of re-introducing leveling its expansion as the sole unintuitive way of “getting to know the lands”
2. Phasing zones to change as you progress. That would be fantastic.

Won’t happen though under current regime so just a very nice post of how things would be if players and developers were open minded people.

Yeah I'm glad to find others like yourself who agree. I only thought of these ideas in a few moments but they have been more or less on my mind for years. I am a player like anyone else. I don't get paid one cent from this game. Even so. If we can casually brainstorm ideas on a random forum like this, then a team of paid developers should be able to come up with even better ideas.
The journey in the game should be just as fun and engaging as the end game. Seeing actual story progress and earning favor with the people you help along the way could open up whole new sets of rewards. Help a blacksmith, get custom made armor pieces or some such. Doesn't have to be anything over the top, maybe just a unique coloration or something. Help a butcher, get especially prepared food at a discount that has a slightly higher stat boost. There are tons of possibilities.

Also another idea. Dynamic open world quests. They may start out one way, then based upon player participation go another.

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It's very much a niche market who really care about the roleplay side of an MMO and I highly doubt the game would be in any better state because of this. WoW isn't in a bad state because of any one decision, it's in a bad state because Blizzard aren't making a game anymore they are making a tactical money-making machine. They implement boring busy work to keep people playing, they implement clearly broken mechanics with easy fixes to "fix" in patches as the expansion goes on.

The games bad because fun is no longer a priority for the devs.

I have heard these talking points for some time now. To this I say, if a new player were to try WoW, would they be saying the same things ? Or are these the conclusions old salty players have come to after the developers failed to take the game in the direction they envisioned?

[arkanon]

Hmm. To be honest I'm not just taking what people in WoW want alone. In life generally people like self expression and being part of a community. So if that's what people want IRL then they could want the same things in WoW. Even though WoW is just a game, it's part of reality. Just because it's a video game doesnt make it exempt from life. So I think they are out of touch that way.

They do have things like community. I'm just saying there could be more. if they want to be creative with the game, these are things to consider making content around.

For me an idea around community content are leaderboards and hall of fames, etc. An example of leaderboards in the past that could make a comeback are pvp rankings. They could use that same idea and expand it to other aspects of the game.

Leaderboards and hall of Fame already exist. Don't tell me the only examples you could come up with already exist.......

But I really don't feel like you have explained your stance at all. If anything, you have complicated it even more without actually stating specifically what you would like.

Tell me, without using examples already present in the game, what you think could be done to improve the "community". Specifically, not just reconfirming that you want "more community", actually be specific and say "I think they should add abc and remove xyz" or whatever.

[Zodiark]

Yeah, the leveling process have been looked upon for years as something to get over with quickly. As such, is a streamlined questing experience with next to nothing of challenge. They removed the sense of danger and challenge in the world, so one would think they replace it with something. As I see it, Blizzard has tried to replace that with more focus on storylines & narrative. Has it been a success? I wouldnt really say so. Its not a GREAT story experience in most xpac zones. Parts are good, but for the most part..

I think theres something to be said about having a challenging world out there again. A feeling of exploration. Now ppl rush to max lvl and start complaining about nothing to do in the world, when they themself despise the leveling - that takes place in the world.

Sometimes progress for the sake of progress is done so at the expense of the game's integrity as a whole. To this end I think sometimes blizzard hastily gave into some game design demands in the effort to capitalize on WoW's success.

There is a fine line between passion and greed. A group of developers who start making a game they themselves would want to play, develop said game. Then as it grows in popularity and money starts flowing in, the direction shifts. From something they would want, to what the PLAYERS seem to want. Low hanging fruit can be a dangerous thing. The developers grabbed at those things thinking for them it would be an easy win. Meanwhile they weren't considering how down the line getting back on track would take considerably more effort because of it.

[Fitsu]

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I have heard these talking points for some time now. To this I say, if a new player were to try WoW, would they be saying the same things ? Or are these the conclusions old salty players have come to after the developers failed to take the game in the direction they envisioned?

These conclusions are based on what we see happening. They implement Torghast but it's a slow restricted grind everyone says it needs to be more rewarding and open at the start and at the end it's more rewarding and open. They implement Covenants and everyone says because people want to min-max they will only go for the BiS so it needs to be easily changable, this again is a change done at the end. The anima grind was horrible, now it's buffed etc. etc.

Many of the slow, grindy, tedious mechanics implemented at the start of this expansion have either been removed or buffed to the point of not mattering and the games better for it. You just remove these things they put development time into adding and the game is BETTER because of it. Almost every mechanic they implemented people told them how to fix it in the beta because the fix was obvious and all of those fixes slowly got implemented in patches along the way and now all these mechanics are in the state they should have been at the start, in the state everyone reported about in the beta.

Blizzard is a multi-billion dollar company, every decision they make is intentional and you only have to look at what they are doing to see what their intent is. They've been using the good name they built over the first 20 years to push their greed and now the cracks are showing.

[Sauredfangs]

Leaderboards and hall of Fame already exist. Don't tell me the only examples you could come up with already exist.......

But I really don't feel like you have explained your stance at all. If anything, you have complicated it even more without actually stating specifically what you would like.

Tell me, without using examples already present in the game, what you think could be done to improve the "community". Specifically, not just reconfirming that you want "more community", actually be specific and say "I think they should add abc and remove xyz" or whatever.

I wasnt really competing. I was just helping brain storm >.>.