KSM is too easy.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

If you are a grown a** man who worries about his status in an online rpg which is supposedly based on the ilvl of your gear, you need a break from gaming.

[Jastall]

This is EXACTLY the problem. If everyone is special, no one is.

No one is special or cool because they have shinier pixels or bigger numbers in a video game. Sorry not sorry, that's just the truth.

Besides, only disconnected people on forums think KSM is so easy anyone can do it. The majority of players don't even come close to getting it, same for AOTC.

[pahbi]

The problem is raiding and not mythic+.

It has an outdated model. Raids need to be smaller and easier to organise and preferably rewarding.

^^^^^^ This!

[Xath]

But that isn't a problem. WoW clearly is not meant to be a game of "I feel superior to others ergo I'm having fun". The challenge itself is supposed to be the fun part.

Besides the fact that calling +15s "Welfare gear" is such an elitist take that's pretty far removed from reality anyway. Obviously there's a huge difference between people who get CE and people who get KSM, but it's still not some faceroll content like people love to make it sound like.

Considering how easy it is to take a fresh 60 from 2 to 15 in a week yeah it's pretty damn face roll I've done it multiple times without linking new character to io or getting friends to help. It's insanely faceroll for the rewards you recieve. It's like if you got max ilvl pvp gear for hitting 1600 or mythic gear for clearing heroic anduin those are about on par with a 15.

The only time it isn't facroll is the first couple weeks of the season when you are still in full last tier gear.

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The problem is raiding and not mythic+.

It has an outdated model. Raids need to be smaller and easier to organise and preferably rewarding.

No, gets rid of the entire point of raiding when you turn it into a glorified dungeon. 10 man just flat out isn't epic even 20 is smaller than I would prefer.

[Popastique]

I say the opposite, I think that Mythic raid should give zero gear at all and only cosmetics. The best ilvl gear in the game should be obtainable by everyone who puts in at least some effort - heroic raid, +15's etc.

The fastest way to kill mythic raids, no thank you. We had *Crucible of Storms* experience already - and everybody knows how it turned out.

[Puri]

Hm, perhaps m+ is not too easy, but mythic raiding is too hard? Make it semi-flexible, for example 17-23 players, that is tuned around every raid size. And tune it that groups can steamroll m+20 doesn't need 100+ attempts on some bosses.

There, fixed.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Yeah.. KSM is pretty much just an achievement that says "I did this enough and was not basement skilled in doing so" and I think that is perfectly ok. Could they add in a more 1%er achievement for the tip top of the best of the best.. maybe.. but I feel like them getting to go get paid to play the game and stuff counts as something too.

[Xath]

I think yes! (this does not include mounts, since they are really something prestige) Nowadays i would give a fuck if someone else has worse gear then me and i can feel superior over them.

I think that blizzard should CARE LESS about the butterflies AND MORE towards players in general! Having no progression in gear for what you are doing is bad for the game, and yes, i include LFR with it too. Blizzard listened more and more about the raiders, and we see what happened to wow: less and less subs. Instead they should give people a way to progress even if they don't raid or do mythic+.

As i said before: when someone only wants to do outdoor-content, give him gear that allows him do do it faster and make progress; not ONLY outdoor naturally, since the bonus should partly be a bonus in general; just slower than what raiders do and no, this should never be stronger than heroic raiding gear or equivalent to mythic+; at least the plain gear without the damage bonus that would only work in things they do: outdoor-content, and LFG/LFR. The same should be true for mythic+ and raiding. When you do it, you get gear that let you progress into it.

Blizzard has done the exact opposite of listening to raiders outside of crazy people like thd. Raiders loved raid logging it was freaking great what has blizz done instead cut qol like flying hard then implemented endless progress systems so you feel like if you aren't spending all your free time on wow you are letting your team down. It flat out sucks, there doesn't need to be infinite content they used to get this all the way until legion they got it. However with their seasonal reset bs and 4 difficulties the gear scaling has spiraled completely out of control. If blizz was listening to raiders we would be going back to mop and dropping all infinite grinds.

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Hm, perhaps m+ is not too easy, but mythic raiding is too hard? Make it semi-flexible, for example 17-23 players, that is tuned around every raid size. And tune it that groups can steamroll m+20 doesn't need 100+ attempts on some bosses.

There, fixed.

No, you can't accurately tune for a variable number of people, and M+ is a snoozefest where only numbers go up past 10 not mechanics.

[Tech614]

No, you can't accurately tune for a variable number of people, and M+ is a snoozefest where only numbers go up past 10 not mechanics.

Mechanics go up with higher keys because they actually exist then. When you kill a boss in 30 seconds it effectively has no mechanics.

[Goatfish]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

The answer to most of those questions is Yes, though a lot of them are conflating ideas that are very different. Supply and demand is very real, and having a huge supply is going to lower the value of things. I'm not sure why people like you are insistent on building these fucking strange personality profiles that anyone who wants a fair system that makes sense is just some elitist who thinks they are better than everyone else.

Personally, I don't care if someone has put in similar work to get similar results. I dislike the entire idea of lotteries, handouts, and to a lesser degree gambling. I do approve of efficiency, which is a different thing that allows people to get the same results with less effort. I'd be more ok with M+ giving out mythic raiding level gear if it were +20's. 15's are barely on the level of heroic raids but reward mythic gear, which siphons off the importance of doing the raids at all and pressures people who would rather not spam dungeons for gear (like myself and a solid 70% of my raiding crew) into doing them.

The steelman argument for the other side is that gear is effectively a difficulty modifier that makes hard content easier to complete, so people should have easier access to making content easier for themselves if they want to. The realist response is that not everyone has to do the harder content, and the people seeking modifiers to make it easier are the ones seeking that view at the top of the mountain without putting in the effort to climb it. Or in other words, they want that feeling of superiority as much, if not more than the people who put in the effort.

I mean seriously? What's the point of essentially beating a game on hard mode where enemy health and damage is increased by 50% if you just use cheats to increase your own health and damage by 50% to compensate? You've just negated the difficulty and can now claim you are good enough to do content that you actually aren't good enough to do. Envy is not a good look folks, and we've all run across people who are obviously boosted because their output doesn't match their accomplishment. It's no different than people claiming to be military vets when the closest they've come to being in the military is a surplus store.

[potis]

KSM is always too easy the 3rd season cause the scaling is always towards the players, Corruption for BFA, dual legendaries for SL etc, its not fair to compare them with season 1 KSM as example where everything is semi-overtuned or broken for a month.

And not sure why people are comparing M+ to Mythic Raiding, Mythic Raiding difficulty isnt the mechanics per se, is more the fact "Who is gonna fail now out of the 20 and cause a wipe to waste even more time getting this down since we are just using the tactics from others" versus "We are only 5, we can communicate much easier what we are gonna be doing to get this done" which becomes even more true after the nerf waves of Mythic every time the few expansions.

[Bigbazz]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

I think this is a dumb take because Mythic raiding should be easier, not that M+ should be harder. Nobody gives a shit about Mythic raiding anymore because it's too time consuming as the difficulty curve is too high. The game shouldn't be designed for professionals to have a challenge, professional tryhard teams should roflstomp Mythic raiding in the first week of progression.

[jeezusisacasual]

It comes down to logistics for me, raiding requires to much of a commitment compared to mythic dungeons and has made me just a seasonal wow player going forward and i think at this point i would just stop playing WoW as i value spending just a 6 or 7 week period playing WoW and then moving on to other games. I gladly wear my Hand of A`dal title, Deaths Demise and other raid titles but i would never ever deal with that kind of requirement in a game ever again, hell i have more pressing needs then spending that much time on a game in general.

If raiding was more pick up and play at the mythic level then tuned to be brutal i would be more inclined to engage with it or i might not i guess it depends on the year and time frame personal life etc. As someone who used to gatekeep and bang on about how raiding should be about the cream of the crop rest be damned ( i even told players that they paid monthly for me to content and gear they could only dream about ) but i realized that is a cancerous way to conduit an active playerbase, get with the times or fade out. Bang on about how you held rank 1 on a fight while you smash piss easy raids but realize you will only sound like that middle aged loser who only values in being the best high school defensive end in 2003.

[Amariw]

The way OP is phrased makes me think its a bait and that you don't actually care all that much who gets what gear, but i'll bite, its a fun discussion;

We should be able to get mythic raiding gear from solo activities. I mean it, just not straight away. The sense of accomplishment and superiority awarded to mythic raiders should stay, and it will through getting the gear first (much like how they get it faster then mythic+ guys), and the knowledge they defeated encounters not everyone else did.

But that's it, theres not a good reason to gate gear beside that. Let it come from m+15 like today, and let it come from torghast/outdoor professions/mage tower fights, all of it. Just gate it so its much slower then m+ and raid. This way casuals still feel like they have something to accomplish and grind for that feels good at endgame other than mounts, and this is an important aspect of positive player retention.

As for m+ in particular, its good that it drops from 15. That way people don't feel pressured to do very high keys, and it still doesn't give them gear as fast as mythic raiding. Thanks to this, the only people who do high keys now are people who want to, much like the only people who do mythic raiding are those who want to. That's as it should be.

[Steelangel]

This is EXACTLY the problem. If everyone is special, no one is.

You're not special because you got some different pixels before someone else. If your identity and self-worth revolves around the pixels you have in a game that could go offline at any given time, then you have some serious issues.

This is my argument against having things like old glad sets and Mage tower weapons locked away forever. Do I feel special because I have a fancy mog or fancy staff or fancy sword? No. I have a whole screen full of acheivements that show that I did things in current content, and give exactly no fucks if someone else has them.

[Somic]

I say the opposite, I think that Mythic raid should give zero gear at all and only cosmetics. The best ilvl gear in the game should be obtainable by everyone who puts in at least some effort - heroic raid, +15's etc.. Gear power should be relatively quick to max out on a character if you are playing it properly, say 1 month from the start of a patch your character should be absolutely maxed in any content you choose to do, and everything after that should only be about hunting the achievements, the cosmetics or simply for prestige of having accomplished a victory.

Many people in this game are forced to take part in areas they otherwise dislike just to fully enjoy the area of the game they do like, myself included. For example, having to raid for trinkets and tier etc in order to be competitive in M+. That kind of thing should not exist at all.

Any serious high end gamer will tell you that the gear is irrelevant, they do what they do for the fun of being the best, not because it gives you big number loot. The people who do make that argument are the insecure ones who need that +5 ilvls to feel like they are good.

150% this. Just like games like destiny 2 where literally anyone who is playing the game at ALL will receive the highest gear possible eventually. Even doing things that are comparable to queing random bgs or random heroic dungeons.

The people who are bad still won’t touch the high end content and the players who are great will excel in it. And they are compensated with nice cosmetics, titles, and slight slight slight upgrades in gear. The hardest parts of the game isn’t dead either, it thrives.

[Steelangel]

Besides, only disconnected people on forums think KSM is so easy anyone can do it. The majority of players don't even come close to getting it, same for AOTC.

KSM and AOTC (and Glad) are super easy when you spend enough tokens to pay for a carry anyway, so the actual acheivement is almost meaningless.

What I want to see, however, are those random pug groups that come in and slam out no voice AOTC in 1 pull per boss in the second or third week that people on the forums keep talking about like they fall from trees. The only pug AOTC I ever got was Nighthold, and that was a 6-hour shitshow with at least 4 full group reforms. Luckily I had an off-tank that hung with me through the whole thing, but it's so much easier in a guild.

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150% this. Just like games like destiny 2 where literally anyone who is playing the game at ALL will receive the highest gear possible eventually.

The problem is that Destiny 2 sucks. It's Team Fortress 2's hat-and-weapon-cosmetics simulator in space, only with worse character animations and design.

[Somic]

KSM and AOTC (and Glad) are super easy when you spend enough tokens to pay for a carry anyway, so the actual acheivement is almost meaningless.

What I want to see, however, are those random pug groups that come in and slam out no voice AOTC in 1 pull per boss in the second or third week that people on the forums keep talking about like they fall from trees. The only pug AOTC I ever got was Nighthold, and that was a 6-hour shitshow with at least 4 full group reforms. Luckily I had an off-tank that hung with me through the whole thing, but it's so much easier in a guild.

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The problem is that Destiny 2 sucks. It's Team Fortress 2's hat-and-weapon-cosmetics simulator in space, only with worse character animations and design.

Destiny 2 is a wildly popular game it just got bought by Sony for a mere almost 4 billion dollars. Idk what you’re talking about with tf2 the game isn’t anywhere close. Have you… actually played destiny 2 beyond hitting max light?

[DeltrusDisc]

This is EXACTLY the problem. If everyone is special, no one is.

I'm in the middle here.

+15s are nothing special, but at the same time I don't think all of the content should be easily achievable. Something I loved back in TBC, as someone who wasn't super good at the game, was seeing the people who had put forward tons of effort and accomplished things like getting the Amani War Bear, getting tier 5 or hell, 6 gear. Sunwell gear? Damn, a legend! Back then it felt like epics were actually quite special and to have one was truly special. Now everyone is decked in epics a week into the expansion and a much larger percentage of people see all of the content. I'm not saying people shouldn't see all of the content, but I think they should have to work through the older "lower tiered" content of the current expansion, to get to the level to do the current stuff.

I really liked attunements and the build up of going from dungeon heroics to t4, then 5, then 6. Hell, I truly felt accomplished just getting Champion of the Naaru and sure, I never got to experience t5 or t6, but you know what that did for me? It left mystery. It left something for me to want to achieve. Something to work towards. When nothing, except the same raid you already saw on normal and heroic is left for you on, yet another difficulty, where's the intrigue? The mystery? The excitement?

It's not here, let me tell you. Frankly I wish we had something more akin to a mixture of Vanilla, TBC, and WotLK. Have a few catch-up mechanics but not too many and have some hard-modes that can be triggered on command, but only two difficulties at most, but really I'd prefer only one difficulty with more varied tiers of difficulty in different raids.

[ZoomButLee]

This is EXACTLY the problem. If everyone is special, no one is.

Its your problem if you find KSM, which is nothing but a milestone, special. Almost every competitive game that scores players based on performance will have multiple tiers and some games like Overwatch will have a Top 500 . The players at the top of the ladder are the special ones, their scores show that. KSM is something special for a player who just starts their M+ journey after being afraid for months to run their own key in LFG... but once that's gone then you have +20's or +25s to complete in time.