KSM is too easy.

[potis]

(oh, and no serious raider raids for gear .... gear is a meaning to an end to kill a boss. Kills, transmog and mounts have more value than gear that you toss out every 5-6 months haha)

Which in the end makes no sense cause you are running around in the pickaxe transmog on the latest mount you deem pretty enough even if its not a Mythic drop, anddd its a frog.

But in reality, the way the game has turned (and not recently, the last 10 years) if you are raiding for gear, you are doing it wrong.

[talmir]

Hard disagree on the premise of the post. Mythic raiding is not any more difficult than mythic+. Gear acquisition is at a similar rate. It is just different content for different people at a similar level of difficulty.

This whole post is either : "Mythic raider doesnt feel special : News at 11" or "Gatekeeping: The post".

[Xath]

"Running my own key" isn't some magical end all rebuttal to the several issues already pointed out.

Like the fact that even if you time every key, always find a group under 10 minutes, you're still going to be left at the mercy of RNG on gear drops and will still spend hours trying to chase gear that might never even drop.

I've lost track of how many times I was trying to get the stupid trinket for tanking from DOS, so let's not suddenly pretend that grinding M+s is some magical loot pinata.

Unless, like I said, you have a group carrying you to gear you up. Otherwise you're going to be spend hours upon hours chasing gear.

I'm unclear are you complaining about spending an hour a week for a free mythic piece in an mmo???????

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Hard disagree on the premise of the post. Mythic raiding is not any more difficult than mythic+. Gear acquisition is at a similar rate. It is just different content for different people at a similar level of difficulty.

This whole post is either : "Mythic raider doesnt feel special : News at 11" or "Gatekeeping: The post".

It absolutely is mythic raiding is more than just larger numbers it's actual mechanics changing something that M+ get zero added complexity post 10

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Raiding is easy too. My guild has 8 mythic raiding teams. The only hard part is getting everyone online. Mythic+ is for pugs and just play for fun. I got KSM with 254 ilvl and now ar 278 I can pretty much time 15s with 230 healers.

Probably the same for raids because my guild does carry runs for low ilvl alts.

We are talking about getting ce on an hof pace not killing the first boss and claiming to be a mythic raiding team

[bloodykiller86]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

speak for yourself. trying to do it in pugs is hell this season lol the pugs ive been in have been so badddddd. people not knowing boss mechanics entirely in s3 in a 15 was bad enough to make me take a break

[gobarj]

I enjoy the difficulty of getting KSM, it's not too hard, even just using pugs. I agree that Mythic raids need better gear to justify the effort of getting 20 peeps together as well as the insane difficulty.
Back in 8.2 we recruited a Frost DK for our Mythic Azshara kill who was a pure M+ player and was 0/8 in Mythic and without AOTC either. I always thought that was kinda shitty he had gear equal to us raiders and got pretty much a free Cutting Edge.

Why are you looking or caring about their gear? Recruit good, consistent players that are performing above and beyond. That should be what you're after, not silly thoughts like "omg he got a free cutting edge with 0/8"

[glowpipe]

Ksm is not supposed to be hard. Its a something everyone can work their way towards by the end of the season.

/thread

[neescher]

"Running my own key" isn't some magical end all rebuttal to the several issues already pointed out.

Like the fact that even if you time every key, always find a group under 10 minutes, you're still going to be left at the mercy of RNG on gear drops and will still spend hours trying to chase gear that might never even drop.

I've lost track of how many times I was trying to get the stupid trinket for tanking from DOS, so let's not suddenly pretend that grinding M+s is some magical loot pinata.

Unless, like I said, you have a group carrying you to gear you up. Otherwise you're going to be spend hours upon hours chasing gear.

M+ is a magical loot pinata though. It's the only content you can run non-stop if you want, that has no lockouts or limits on how often you can loot something.

While you can't get to the absolute highest ilvl possible with m+, you can get up to 262 on each slot, and once the valor cap is lifted you can get to 272 on each slot.


Loot is still (and will always be) RNG in games like these, and honestly that's good because where's the fun if you're done equipping your character after 3 days. So chasing one particular trinket and not getting it instantly does not mean m+ isn't the best and fastest way to gear up.

There are even ways to speed up the process in cases like that, for example ask friends to join and set their loot spec to tank. Back in older expansions where there was no m+, you know what you did in situations like these? Nothing. You simply didn't get your trinket, sometimes for months, or even not at all in the entire lifespan of the expansion. It took ~2-3 months for us for Vaelastrasz to drop his healing shield for the first time back in BC, and we had ~7 paladins in our raid roster. So even the first in line to get it had to wait for months, and some of them didn't get it at all. Nowadays you can spam m+ and have a high chance to get pretty much anything you want.

[Accendor]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

As somebody who does m+ a lot and is also a CE raider - yes, KSM and the item level 15/chests provide is just too good if you compare the effort. Sorry, but finishing a 15 in time is simply not comparable to beating Halondrus, Anduin, Nippleboi or even one of the weaker mythic bosses and should not reward comparable loot.

[Jester Joe]

I'm unclear are you complaining about spending an hour a week for a free mythic piece in an mmo???????

Don't move the goalpost now.

And don't put words in my mouth either, because you know perfectly well that isn't what was said.

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M+ is a magical loot pinata though. It's the only content you can run non-stop if you want, that has no lockouts or limits on how often you can loot something

That doesn't change what I said though. At no point does it mean the gear will drop, it doesn't matter that it's spammable.

And on top of that, the discussion was clearly about doing it solo, so bringing friends isn't part of the topic

[ellieg]

As somebody who does m+ a lot and is also a CE raider - yes, KSM and the item level 15/chests provide is just too good if you compare the effort. Sorry, but finishing a 15 in time is simply not comparable to beating Halondrus, Anduin, Nippleboi or even one of the weaker mythic bosses and should not reward comparable loot.

Good thing it doesn't. 1 278 a week max from doing a m+. Full clearing mythic raid will give u 3-4 items, 1-2ish being 285. Plus unique trinkets, rings, weapons. Plus all that loot can eventually be traded.

Ksm is easy. But you are capped at 1 piece a week. Bare minimum to get full 278s is 16 weeks assuming you have good vault luck. Mythic raider will be higher ilvl at every single point of the season.

[Evolixe]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

Do you actually play this content? Because I don't need someone that has nothing to do with the mythic raiding scene to represent my opinion.

I couldn't give less of a damn who gets what gear. It doesn't matter. Just leave it alone.

This is basically what it is; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-UTjM8XtqA&t=3588s

[Azerox]

True, imo max gear and KSM should be rewarded to 20+ only.

[dacoolist]

True, imo max gear and KSM should be rewarded to 20+ only.

Keystone Hero is all 20's in time on average between Tyrannical and Fortified weeks - you also get portals to the entrances which is awesome.. but KSM as much as I agree should MAYBE be 16/17.. I dont think it should be 20 (3k this season). Hear me out:

I believe that AT THE BEGINNING of the season without gear and stacking whats best: Keystone Hero is actually pretty damn tough - I didnt even get it until April 20th - so the situation when it comes to gear is that - I could LIKELY raid and get mythic slots at the same rate at spending time Week 1/2/3 completing these timers for a RANDOM chance at 1/100 peace of gear from the vault - when I could just go into the raid and have a 25+++% chance to get a piece or something traded to me (duplicate drops)

So I think M+ capping at 272 with conq and 278 out of the vault are just fine IMO

Now IMO: PVP - I still have no freaken idea why blizz continues to down ilvl pvp gear except that I guess sometimes the pvp gear COULD BE better than PVE gear at the same ilvl, idk - I think pvp gear deserves higher rating (Example: I am 1800 in pvp, so my pvp gear IN PVP is 278 cool - but in PVE its only 265.. Why can't like 2100 [the current pvp cap] just be 278 flat out, and 1800 could be 272.. it makes no sense to me I guess but whatev)

Deep down we all think things differently but flat out: making people to 20's to get the mount is WAY out of line IMO

[gunnmen01]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

Ohhh look at me, I'm so important....How does it feel to be that cool and awesome? I hope your proud of yourself. I want to get a group of those dirty casuals to follow you around everywhere you go and comment on your gear being equal to thiers....

[Accendor]

Good thing it doesn't. 1 278 a week max from doing a m+. Full clearing mythic raid will give u 3-4 items, 1-2ish being 285. Plus unique trinkets, rings, weapons. Plus all that loot can eventually be traded.

Ksm is easy. But you are capped at 1 piece a week. Bare minimum to get full 278s is 16 weeks assuming you have good vault luck. Mythic raider will be higher ilvl at every single point of the season.

You only get 3-4 mythic items per raid if you have it on farm and you also get it funneled to you.
At that point it doesn't really matter anymore, since the tier is already over. If you look at the current raid, it was like 4 weeks ago that almost all of then consistently started reclearing again, before that most guilds simply did not reset anymore once Halondrus was down (except when they were the REALLY strong guild). I know what I'm talking about here, this tier I'm litereally in a top 100 guilds for the first time ever this tier and even large parts of the guilds before us never reset until the Nerf happened.

I thought this was obvious, but I can see somebody could think otherwise.

[Twdft]

You only get 3-4 mythic items per raid if you have it on farm and you also get it funneled to you.
At that point it doesn't really matter anymore, since the tier is already over. If you look at the current raid, it was like 4 weeks ago that almost all of then consistently started reclearing again, before that most guilds simply did not reset anymore once Halondrus was down (except when they were the REALLY strong guild). I know what I'm talking about here, this tier I'm litereally in a top 100 guilds for the first time ever this tier and even large parts of the guilds before us never reset until the Nerf happened.

I thought this was obvious, but I can see somebody could think otherwise.

You might not like that the ilvl difference is small, but with average luck a mythic raider is still better geared at any point for the entire season simply because they get at least one 278 per week with a 20% chance per boss slain for more. M+ players are hard capped at one 278 and can't trade it with their friends. Also raid trinkets are usually better than m+ trinkets. Even if you need 4 months to clear the place, a M+ player needs perfect luck to be fully 278 geared after 4 months.

It's not the same.

I think heroic raiders have the short straw. Heroic loot should be upgradable to 272 and a jailer kill should provide a 278 in the vault. Mythic raid loot should be upgradable to 285 too.

[Hellobolis]

You might not like that the ilvl difference is small, but with average luck a mythic raider is still better geared at any point for the entire season simply because they get at least one 278 per week with a 20% chance per boss slain for more. M+ players are hard capped at one 278 and can't trade it with their friends. Also raid trinkets are usually better than m+ trinkets. Even if you need 4 months to clear the place, a M+ player needs perfect luck to be fully 278 geared after 4 months.

It's not the same.

I think heroic raiders have the short straw. Heroic loot should be upgradable to 272 and a jailer kill should provide a 278 in the vault. Mythic raid loot should be upgradable to 285 too.

used to be lots of people who only raided for the gear so they could pvp. that just doesn't happen anymore.

that kinda says it all. yeah mythic raiding trinkets are often better, but not enough better to invest 6+ hours a week for.


but the whole situation is kinda problematic. if you increase mythic raiding rewards to much, then the top m+ content will simply be gear gated behind that. but on the flipside, just doing 1-4 m+ a week if incredibly less effort than raiding 2-3 days a week. i don't think a happy medium can ever be found.

[notthebees]

Reminder that OP is the same one who made a thread about wq players getting the same ilvl as mythic raiders/m+/pvpers. Reminder that they haven't posted since first post.

[neescher]

That doesn't change what I said though. At no point does it mean the gear will drop, it doesn't matter that it's spammable.

And on top of that, the discussion was clearly about doing it solo, so bringing friends isn't part of the topic

Even alone, if you have a 40% chance of getting an item from each dungeon, you WILL get gear. Like really quickly. In reality it's quite a bit higher, because you get extra loot from higher keystones, and even pugs will trade you gear, especially this late in the season.

[agentsi]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

I understand where you're coming from, but there are a few problems with your logic. Outside of you just trying to be the "cool guy" while you're mocking him for trying to be one as well. No one likes a hypocrite.

If you and a co-worker, are working the same hours, doing the same job, performing at the same level, and he only has to work 10 hours a week while you have to work 40, but you get paid the same. You'd be pretty annoyed too, and I doubt your logic of "stop worrying about others" would still be standing. The same goes for any number of analogies based on time/effort/reward. RNG is cool, but skill should matter more. I know that is a concept you probably hate hearing, giving your reply, one can only assume what type of person you are.

Mythic raiding takes far longer to do and is overall, MUCH harder to do than getting to a +15 in M+. Yet the rewards are almost the same ilevel gear. The rewards for time invested/difficulty are not equal. Not even remotely. How many +15s do you think people would do if they had to wipe on 50-300 of them first just to get that kill/clear, and only "maybe" get loot.

Loot used to mean something back in the day, and even in some MMO's it still does. Seeing a sword, or a pair of shoulder pads meant you knew that player had to earn those in some way. Those days are gone, and now folks only have their overall levels to show they've made progress or pushed harder content. So yeah, seeing someone who plays 4-5 hours a week, getting gear mythic raids spend 12-20 hours a week getting, has to feel pretty shitty to everyone involved. This is the EXACT reason, they removed titanforging from the game. Yet you're saying people shouldn't worry about things like this, but the game devs do. Shouldn't we worry about the same things they do, especially if they're important enough for them to remove them from the game?