So… Tinkers

[Triceron]

Well that's the other problem; There's no Bard hero in lore, there's nothing from HotS or WC3 with Bard-style abilities, and there's no expansion that works with the concept.

Tinkers have Gazlowe and Mekkatorque, have the Tinker hero in BOTH WC3 and HotS to pull original abilities, and you have an Undermine expansion.

Every class was based on a Warcraft 3 hero too. Till we got one that wasn't.

We don't have any race that is capable of using all dragonflight's Dragon powers. Until we got one that could.

I think you need to get over these unwritten rules. Blizzard's proven time and time again to not stick to any standard at all.

They can invent as they please.

[Teriz]

Every class was based on a Warcraft 3 hero too. Till we got one that wasn't.

I think you need to get over these unwritten rules. Blizzard's proven time and time again to not stick to any standard at all.

They can invent as they please.

TBF, Deathwing is a WC2 and HotS hero, Alexstraza and Chromie were HotS heroes, and we had dragon units in WC2 and WC3.

Evokers are largely based on those characters.

Bards? Nowhere to be found.

[Triceron]

TBF, Deathwing is a WC2 hero, and Alexstraza was a HotS hero. Evokers are largely based on those characters.

Bards? Nowhere to be found.

Well none of those characters were actually Evokers. We're talking about an Evoker class merely being based on a WC2 hero that has 'Dragon powers', right?

Then Bards can be literally based on any hero, unit or item that uses song or music

And for that we have:

- The entire Warsong clan, who sings in battle.
- The Hellscreams, who are literally known for their warcries
- Kodo Riders, who play drums in battle to buff allies
- The Windrunners, who are shown to have musical aptitude like Sylvanas' singing, Alleria's Flute playing, etc.
- ETC, and crossover with Heroes of the Storm.
- All the Instrument-based items that provide Support Auras in WC3, like:
- Alleria's Flute of Accuracy
- Ancient Janggo of Endurance
- Legion Doom-Horn
- Scourge Bone Chimes
- The Lion Horn of Stormwind
- Warsong Battle Drums

[Teriz]

Well none of those characters were actually Evokers. We're talking about an Evoker class merely being based on a WC2 hero that has 'Dragon powers', right?

Where did I say they would ONLY be based on WC2?

Then Bards can be literally based on any hero, unit or item that uses song or music

And for that we have:
- The entire Warsong clan, who sings in battle.
- The Hellscreams, who are literally known for their warcries

Entirely incorporated into the Warrior class.

- Kodo Riders, who play drums in battle to buff allies

Incorporated into Leatherworking.

- The Windrunners, who are shown to have musical aptitude like Sylvanas' singing, Alleria's Flute playing, etc.

The Windrunners are Rangers, not Bards.

- ETC, and crossover with Heroes of the Storm.

A spoof of the Tauren Chieftain, a warrior hero. Further, the ETC doesn't actually exist in WoW lore.

- All the Instrument-based items that provide Support Auras in WC3, like:
- Alleria's Flute of Accuracy
- Ancient Janggo of Endurance
- Legion Doom-Horn
- Scourge Bone Chimes
- The Lion Horn of Stormwind
- Warsong Battle Drums

And they're just that, items. WoW classes are based on heroes (or villains) of lore, not items.

[Triceron]

Entirely incorporated into the Warrior class.
The Windrunners are Rangers, not Bards.

And I'd argue Alexstrazsa, Wrathion, Deathwing, Kalecgos, Nozdormu and Ysera are all of various classes that aren't 'Evoker' as well.

Again, does it matter?

[Teriz]

And I'd argue Alexstrazsa, Wrathion, Deathwing, Kalecgos, Nozdormu and Ysera are all of various classes that aren't 'Evoker' as well.

Again, does it matter?

Yet Evokers have their powers and abilities.

"Dracthyr Evoker" is just a name for the dragon class. You can't name the class "dragon", so they named it Dracthyr Evoker instead.

I can make a red dragon that can heal or destroy with flames, just like Alexstraza.
I can make a black dragon that can reinforce themselves with black scales, and burn enemies with fire and earth, just like Wrathion and Deathwing.
I can make a blue dragon that uses arcane magic to enhance their draconic abilities just like Kalecgos.
I can make a bronze dragon that manipulates time to enhance myself and my allies just like Nozdormu.
I can make a green dragon that uses nature magic and the dream to heal and restore my allies just like Ysera.

And I can give that dragon a visage form to blend in with the mortal races, just like they all can do.

[Triceron]

Yet Evokers have their powers and abilities.

"Dracthyr Evoker" is just a name for the dragon class. You can't name the class "dragon", so they named it Dracthyr Evoker instead.

I can make a red dragon that can heal or destroy with flames, just like Alexstraza.
I can make a black dragon that can reinforce themselves with black scales, and burn enemies with fire and earth, just like Wrathion and Deathwing.
I can make a blue dragon that uses arcane magic to enhance their draconic abilities just like Kalecgos.
I can make a bronze dragon that manipulates time to enhance myself and my allies just like Nozdormu.
I can make a green dragon that uses nature magic and the dream to heal and restore my allies just like Ysera.

And I can give that dragon a visage form to blend in with the mortal races, just like they all can do.

Yeah, and how would that differ from my examples above? Just because Hellscream and the Windrunners are a certain class, doesn't mean a Bard can not invoke their musical aptitude.

Multiple classes can draw influence from the same hero regardless of what that hero's personal 'class' is. Druids can draw on the power of Elune and use Starfall like Tyrande and the Priestesses of the Moon, without being Priestess of the Moon themselves. Invoking the magic of Heroes of various classes is already built into WoW. There's no mutual exclusion to it, and you're trying to split hairs where there are none to split.

A Bard can play the flute as well as Alleria, sing warcries as great as Hellscream, play the battle drums as vibrantly as the Kodo Riders, and thrash heavy metal as hard as ETC.

It would do you well to simply nod your head, say 'Hmm, you're right' and move on. There's really nothing to argue here. You're trying to prove a negative, and we both know it's impossible.

[Avatar Killer]

Ngl. I would rather gotten tinker than evokers.

Agreed. Lizard people seems… silly at best. Even if they didn’t do tinkers they could’ve done something less ridiculous

[Froggy]

I play on a private server that has a bunch of custom classes including Tinker, it's incredibly cool and I wish Blizz would hire the guy who runs it.

[Teriz]

Yeah, and how would that differ from my examples above?

Because the Evoker has a cohesive theme; Dragons and the Dragonflight. At their core, all of those examples you listed are part of the dragon flights, and are magical flying lizards that can disguise themselves as mortals. The Evoker is the same thing.

Your examples are all over the place and completely unrelated to one another. What does Alleria have in common with a Kodo Rider?

Just because Hellscream and the Windrunners are a certain class, doesn't mean a Bard can not invoke their musical aptitude.

No, the problem is that warriors already incorporate those qualities and abilities in their sound-based sub-theme.

Multiple classes can draw influence from the same hero regardless of what that hero's personal 'class' is. Druids can draw on the power of Elune and use Starfall like Tyrande and the Priestesses of the Moon, without being Priestess of the Moon themselves. Invoking the magic of Heroes of various classes is already built into WoW. There's no mutual exclusion to it, and you're trying to split hairs where there are none to split.

You’re talking about one ability that made sense because Blizzard established a Druid spec that could use arcane/lunar magic. On the other hand, you’re talking about pulling an entire class out of what is essentially nothing.

A Bard can play the flute as well as Alleria, sing warcries as great as Hellscream, play the battle drums as vibrantly as the Kodo Riders, and thrash heavy metal as hard as ETC.

Again, concepts that have absolutely nothing to do with each other, already in existing classes, and/or are not even lore-based.

Not a strong foundation to build a class upon.

Also I’m not trying to prove a negative. I’m saying that Bards do not have the same pedigree as the previous 4 expansion classes, which hinders if not outright eliminates their chance at class inclusion.

[deenman]

.One could argue that Illidan was the focus of TBC, but it doesn't mean TBC was all about Illidan. Illidan's story and presence was less than 5% of the entire expansion.

Disagree with this point,the ammount of screentime illidan got isnt important to the point that most of tbc was around his actions,hellfire and what happened to the pit lord boss,vashj and her raid,kael,it was illidan who recruited them and set in motions many of the events in tbc,just like how cataclysm had deathwing behind pretty much everything,doesnt matter that he only shows up for one raid and some quest event

a better comparison you can make about undermine is mechagon,we got the race and a small part of their lore,but the expansion wasnt focused on em

[Triceron]

Because the Evoker has a cohesive theme; Dragons and the Dragonflight. At their core, all of those examples you listed are part of the dragon flights, and are magical flying lizards that can disguise themselves as mortals. The Evoker is the same thing.

Your examples are all over the place and completely unrelated to one another. What does Alleria have in common with a Kodo Rider?

Musical aptitude. How is that all over the place?

No, the my problem is that warriors already incorporate those qualities and abilities in their sound-based sub-theme.

FTFY

You’re talking about one ability that made sense because Blizzard established a Druid spec that could use arcane/lunar magic. On the other hand, you’re talking about pulling an entire class out of what is essentially nothing.

Arguably, every class in WoW was pulled from essentially nothing.

Warcraft 3 Heros had 4 abilities. That means the majority of spells and themes of any given WoW class is newly created.

Monks based on Brewmasters? Everything from Mistweaving to Celestials to the Martial Arts moves were pulled from 'essentially nothing'.

And I can argue that if Monk's full range of martial Arts can derive from a simple ability like 'Drunken Brawler', then a Bard's full range of musical performance can derive from a simple ability like 'War Drums'.

Again, concepts that have absolutely nothing to do with each other, already in existing classes, and/or are not even lore-based.

Same can be said of the Evoker. It's entire name is derived from aspects of the Mage class already - Evocation.

Not a strong foundation to build a class upon.

Care to prove a negative?

Also I’m not trying to prove a negative. I’m saying that Bards do not have the same pedigree as the previous 4 expansion classes, which hinders if not outright eliminates their chance at class inclusion.

Which means you're trying to prove a negative. I mean you can mince your words but you're saying the exact same thing.

"I'm not saying it can't be a class, but... .it can't be a class"

- - - Updated - - -

I play on a private server that has a bunch of custom classes including Tinker, it's incredibly cool and I wish Blizz would hire the guy who runs it.

Just curious, what other interesting custom classes do they have there?

[Teriz]

Musical aptitude. How is that all over the place?

Displayed in what abilities exactly? Like what ability does Alleria or Hellscream utilize that showed musical aptitude? A shout or a war chant is not musical aptitude.

FTFY

You’re literally using a concept already fully incorporated into an existing class, and frankly makes far more sense in that class (warriors) based on the source.

Arguably, every class in WoW was pulled from essentially nothing.

Warcraft 3 Heros had 4 abilities. That means the majority of spells and themes of any given WoW class is newly created.

DKs came from Arthas, DK heroes, Necromancers, the Lich King and Northrend. Monks came from Chen Stormstout, the Brewmaster hero, Pandaren, Pandaria. Demon Hunters came from Illidan and the DH heroes. Evokers came from the various draconic hero characters in lore and various RTS and MOBA games, and the concept of the Dragon Isles.

Bards? Crickets.

Monks based on Brewmasters? Everything from Mistweaving to Celestials to the Martial Arts moves were pulled from 'essentially nothing'.

Once you had the established core, you can expand the base. Bards don’t have that core. Further if you notice, EVERYTHING they expanded with is related back to the original concept of a Pandaren doing Kung Fu from the mysterious continent of Pandaria.

Same can be said of the Evoker. It's entire name is derived from aspects of the Mage class already - Evocation.

You’re seriously arguing about the name when the concept and abilities in the class have a massive origin in Warcraft. Bad faith arguing to the core.

If you wish to argue in bad faith just to try to prove a point, you’re more than welcome to. However, it’s plainly obvious that the Bard doesn’t nearly have the components that the previous class concepts had.

Care to prove a negative?

Death Knights: Arthas, DK hero, Death Pact/Death Coil/Unholy Aura/Unholy Frenzy/Raise Dead, Rune Blades, Northrend.
Monks: Chen Stormstout, BrM hero, Drunken Haze/SEF/Drunken Brawler/Breath of Fire, BrM's Staff, Pandaria
Demon Hunters: Illidan Stormrage, DH hero, Immolation/Metamorphosis/Evasion/Mana Burn, Warglaives, Broken Isles
Dracthyr Evokers: Alexstraza/Chromie/Deathwing, Alexstraza hero, Wing Buffet/Exuberance/Chrono Loop/Blessing of Bronze, Visage form, Dragon Isles

Let me know when you can do that for Bards.

[Triceron]

Displayed in what abilities exactly? Like what ability does Alleria or Hellscream utilize that showed musical aptitude? A shout or a war chant is not musical aptitude.

You've never heard of a Bard Class in any other RPG setting? I'm sure you can imagine what a Bard would be like.

This argument for argument's sake is tiring.

You’re seriously arguing about the name when the concept and abilities in the class have a massive origin in Warcraft. Bad faith arguing to the core.

You honestly think your argument isn't in bad faith? C'mon man, who you fooling here? We've been over this so many times I've lost count.

Demon Hunters not being playable ring a bell?

[Teriz]

You've never heard of a Bard Class in any other RPG setting? I'm sure you can imagine what a Bard would be like.

Except WoW classes are entirely based on Blizzard concepts. So by all means, give us some Blizzard-based Bard abilities, and some WoW Bardic heroes that use them.

You know, like WoW's dragon class being based on heroes like Alexstraza and Chromie, and using abilities like Wing Buffet, Exuberance, Chrono Loop, Blessing of the Bronze, Deep Breath, and having visage forms.

[Triceron]

Except WoW classes are entirely based on Blizzard concepts. So by all means, give us some Blizzard-based Bard abilities, and some WoW Bardic heroes that use them.

You know, like WoW's dragon class being based on heroes like Alexstraza and Chromie, and using abilities like Wing Buffet, Exuberance, Chrono Loop, Blessing of the Bronze, Deep Breath, and having visage forms.

Then I'm sure they can be creative and make a Bard with abilities derived from other RPG inspirations, and theme them with 'Sylvanas' Lament' and 'Canticle of Sacrifice' and 'Hellscream's Warsong' to bridge it all back to the Warcraft setting.


Cuz for every Wing Buffet and Chrono Loop and Deep Breath, we have a Pyre and Azure Strike and Emerald Blossom and Disintegrate.

New abilities inspired from different sources. You got a mix of Wizard abilities from Diablo 3/HOTS here too. I'm sure they could adapt some Lucio themed abilities for a Bard as well.

[Teriz]

Then I'm sure they can be creative and make a Bard with abilities derived from other RPG inspirations, and theme them with 'Sylvanas' Lament' and 'Canticle of Sacrifice' and 'Hellscream's Warsong' to bridge it all back to the Warcraft setting.

So in other words you got nothing.

Can’t say I’m surprised.

The next WoW class will follow the same mold as the previous 4 expansion classes. If the concept doesn’t fit that mold, it’s not worth considering. Bard is such a concept.

[Triceron]

So in other words you got nothing.

Yes, because my point is literally that Blizzard can create something from nothing, lol.

Dracthyr literally came from nothing just the same. There never existed a Dracthyr race that is capable of using all 5 Dragonflight's magic. And I wouldn't have made the argument that Chromatics would be playable.

If you're dismissing everything else as 'You got nothing' then I'm fine with that because Blizzard can literally invent anything I can't provide anyways.

[Hobbidaggy]

How did a discussion about Tinkers turn into an argument about Bards?

[Triceron]

How did a discussion about Tinkers turn into an argument about Bards?

Did you even read the first post in this thread?