Solo content + Class content

[SaucyThighs]

Just want to share a few connected ideas I have that I'd love to see in WoW.

1) More challenging single player content in general. Like, an ongoing progression/questline you do solo that's challenging more or less like M+/Raiding if you want to push the edge of it. There's definitely a place for easy going causal gameplay but I would rather see it across solo/5man/raids rather than solo being casual by default. I think simply not having to deal with other people is chill enough for me -- I'd still like to be fully engaged on an individual level whenever I'm up for it.

2) Class progression content -- this could be one of the main forms of that challenging solo content. Something that is very much about being the class you are. Ex. Mage: you're doing quests + minigames to gather arcane energies, getting knowledge from rare books, and crafting your spells. Ex. Shaman: you're communing with the spirits and elements and shit.

3) The rewards you gain from this isn't just gear. It's a way to actually learn new abilities, empower/modify abilities, +cosmetic changes to abilities. So the difference in player power isn't just gear. A really high level player is going to have better abilities -- particularly the kind that are only better when you have the skill to use them properly. So like, the better of a player you are, the more you get the tools to use that skill.

The main criticism I heard when I shared this on reddit is that for a developer, that's a lot that goes into making content only a portion of your players see. I think it's always worth it to put in anything that you think is cool, but I understand the concern. I'm not a dev (yet) but I've seen enough to appreciate how much goes into adding even a simple feature.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Just want to share a few connected ideas I have that I'd love to see in WoW.

1) More challenging single player content in general. Like, an ongoing progression/questline you do solo that's challenging more or less like M+/Raiding if you want to push the edge of it. There's definitely a place for easy going causal gameplay but I would rather see it across solo/5man/raids rather than solo being casual by default. I think simply not having to deal with other people is chill enough for me -- I'd still like to be fully engaged on an individual level whenever I'm up for it.

2) Class progression content -- this could be one of the main forms of that challenging solo content. Something that is very much about being the class you are. Ex. Mage: you're doing quests + minigames to gather arcane energies, getting knowledge from rare books, and crafting your spells. Ex. Shaman: you're communing with the spirits and elements and shit.

3) The rewards you gain from this isn't just gear. It's a way to actually learn new abilities, empower/modify abilities, +cosmetic changes to abilities. So the difference in player power isn't just gear. A really high level player is going to have better abilities -- particularly the kind that are only better when you have the skill to use them properly. So like, the better of a player you are, the more you get the tools to use that skill.

The main criticism I heard when I shared this on reddit is that for a developer, that's a lot that goes into making content only a portion of your players see. I think it's always worth it to put in anything that you think is cool, but I understand the concern. I'm not a dev (yet) but I've seen enough to appreciate how much goes into adding even a simple feature.

Yeah setting aside whether they are good ideas, they are probably not an efficient use of resources. This is a big issue - everything in the game is a tradeoff in one way or another!

For example, we got some amazing class content and stuff in Legion (in addition to tons of content in general). The tradeoff for that was abandoning. the previous expansion halfway (among other things).

One of the main issues with class and story content in general is that it is incredibly resource intensive, and players tend to only do it once. In fact, most of us want alt skips the second time! Meanwhile, I will end up running a dungeon dozens if not hundreds of times - it is a way more efficient of the dev budget.

Now, that doesnt mean we shouldn't get story content, obviously! We do, and some amount of it is necessary and expected. But it is also a huge dev sink each patch

[Kokolums]

Just want to share a few connected ideas I have that I'd love to see in WoW.

1) More challenging single player content in general.

no. that will accelerate the decline of wow. the more wow shifts from social play to solo play, the more 2394823894649 other solo games can compete with it for players and wow will start to lose them.

[SaucyThighs]

Yeah setting aside whether they are good ideas, they are probably not an efficient use of resources. This is a big issue - everything in the game is a tradeoff in one way or another!

It's good to bring up but I believe moreso in the simple idea that "what you put out is what you get back"; in a sense "if you build it they will come".

If you split your time+energy up between many classes, you may get less content for any one character, but it'll be a gold mine for whoever likes alts. The game may be shorter, but for someone who likes class fantasy, it'll be the best gameplay ever. You're trading length for depth, or depth for breadth. Who is to say which is more important? We already do have class content... having classes period raises the same issue so where do we draw the line? Yet we see how having different types of players doing different things, creating these many interactions, is actually synergistic and what the game is about. Having rogues in the game benefits all the warriors cause now you have the warrior X rogue experience.

As long as the class content idea is the most exciting thing to be implementing, it deserves the time+energy -- let the rest of the game form around it. If you start hitting a wall where there isn't enough of another feature to enjoy your favorite gameplay fully, that's when its time to focus on those other areas. That's when they become the most exciting thing to put dev time into and by extension, create that experience for the player.

[SaucyThighs]

no. that will accelerate the decline of wow. the more wow shifts from social play to solo play, the more 2394823894649 other solo games can compete with it for players and wow will start to lose them.

Well, I am one example of an ex-WoW player that would be more compelled to play it, not less. And I am playing WoW because of the social aspect first and foremost, but am less interested when the game's solo component is not content I enjoy in and of itself.

So there is a balance to be struck -- when each component is the best it can be it supports all the others. When one aspect is lacking all of them suffer because they are gated by it.

Another way to say it is: "social gameplay" is very important to me, yes. But "challenging social gameplay" is even more precisely important for me... so when the 'challenging' part is suffering more than the social part then thats what needs attention. (All of my limbs matter but if one knee hurts, thats what needs improvement for me to be able to do any of the things I like.)

So I realize now you're touching on an important point... that the social aspect is actually suffering here the most. In that case actually yes, first they ought to improve that and then when it's in a good place there will be room for improving solo content!

[Kokolums]

So there is a balance to be struck -- when each component is the best it can be it supports all the others. When one aspect is lacking all of them suffer because they are gated by it.

well there is solo, multiplayer and social. in terms of balance, social needs ALL the work because social is dead.

[wushootaki]

Yeah setting aside whether they are good ideas, they are probably not an efficient use of resources. This is a big issue - everything in the game is a tradeoff in one way or another!

For example, we got some amazing class content and stuff in Legion (in addition to tons of content in general). The tradeoff for that was abandoning. the previous expansion halfway (among other things).

One of the main issues with class and story content in general is that it is incredibly resource intensive, and players tend to only do it once. In fact, most of us want alt skips the second time! Meanwhile, I will end up running a dungeon dozens if not hundreds of times - it is a way more efficient of the dev budget.

Now, that doesnt mean we shouldn't get story content, obviously! We do, and some amount of it is necessary and expected. But it is also a huge dev sink each patch

If the story wasn't complete garbage and presented in a good way, I wouldn't mind it. But it's not. You can spam dungeons on your alts.

[WowIsDead64]

Just want to share a few connected ideas I have that I'd love to see in WoW.

1) More challenging single player content in general. Like, an ongoing progression/questline you do solo that's challenging more or less like M+/Raiding if you want to push the edge of it. There's definitely a place for easy going causal gameplay but I would rather see it across solo/5man/raids rather than solo being casual by default. I think simply not having to deal with other people is chill enough for me -- I'd still like to be fully engaged on an individual level whenever I'm up for it.

2) Class progression content -- this could be one of the main forms of that challenging solo content. Something that is very much about being the class you are. Ex. Mage: you're doing quests + minigames to gather arcane energies, getting knowledge from rare books, and crafting your spells. Ex. Shaman: you're communing with the spirits and elements and shit.

3) The rewards you gain from this isn't just gear. It's a way to actually learn new abilities, empower/modify abilities, +cosmetic changes to abilities. So the difference in player power isn't just gear. A really high level player is going to have better abilities -- particularly the kind that are only better when you have the skill to use them properly. So like, the better of a player you are, the more you get the tools to use that skill.

The main criticism I heard when I shared this on reddit is that for a developer, that's a lot that goes into making content only a portion of your players see. I think it's always worth it to put in anything that you think is cool, but I understand the concern. I'm not a dev (yet) but I've seen enough to appreciate how much goes into adding even a simple feature.

SL had Torghast and nobody needed it. In fact, what you suggest - is opposite to what is needed to save Wow. Solo content should be easy by default. Challenge should be voluntary choice the same way, playing Mythic dungeon or raid is voluntary choice. And for now we have "Mandatory challenge" problem. For example player can't get rid of "Non-soloable rares", "No flying forever" or "Cluttered air to make flying challenging" design, no matter how much he wants to do it. And Blizzard don't even understand, that this design is annoying and that players can't bear annoying design for long time. This is major reason, why majority of players return to see xpack's release, but quit just one month after that. Game is unbearable in long term.

[SaucyThighs]

SL had Torghast and nobody needed it. In fact, what you suggest - is opposite to what is needed to save Wow. Solo content should be easy by default. Challenge should be voluntary choice the same way, playing Mythic dungeon or raid is voluntary choice.

Yes challenge should be a voluntary choice... but if you have to do solo content for any reason, that choice of challenge isn't there. The idea is that challenge is a voluntary choice whether its solo, 5 man, raid, pvp. That also benefits the other side of the coin -- now playing solo, doing 5 mans, raiding, and pvp, are all voluntary choices (rather than the condition to play at the level of difficulty you want).

I like that part about Torghast. The thing about Torghast that I would like changed is to have our challenging solo content integrated into the world. I don't mean the powers. Just that, the least fun part of Torghast is that you are literally by yourself in an instance with nothing but baddies to kill... so it doesn't really feel like an MMORPG. Questing out in the world, seeing other people and maybe grouping up, maybe not; affecting the world and stuff is very important.

The challenge of different kinds of players needing different difficulties is its own topic. Ideally everyone would have a game that is tailored to be reasonably around their desired skill and investment level. One game doesn't need to appeal to everyone. WoW doesn't have to appeal to me; maybe another game will.

So let's say the game is tuned for players like me... I definitely do want times in my gameplay cycle where I'm chillin and exploring; talking to ppl in chat. That doesn't to be a specific type of content. There can be a more casual and more challenging form of every type of content, as long as they have the bandwidth to implement it. That's where it starts becoming tiring to try to appeal to everyone.

But it does feel quite awkward or downright unappealing when the type of content you like to do is gated by content you don't like to do. That's when people talk about these "mandatory chores" because it's not really fun gameplay for someone who rather raid but the reward system strongly encourages you do it anyways if you want to succeed at the part of the game you do like.

Low-key content is great... it should just lead to more and more fleshed out low-key content. Then when you are in the mood for low-key you do low-key. When you are in the mood for intense you do intense.

We can accomplish that in the way it always has been... things get progressively more challenging the deeper you get into them. Eventually you can't progress any further, so you go do other content until you get the power to do so. There can be ways that any casual player or casual-mood player can keep progressing towards their goal and gain power as long as they want, but if you are more skilled you can dive further with less gear.

Though then there is the rightful concern that really then, the hard-core players are getting more content. And in the way I've described it, they are. That kind of game design is based on the idea of rewarding overcoming challenges; maximizing my character and such, which I like. That's why my vote is there.

[WowIsDead64]

Yes challenge should be a voluntary choice... but if you have to do solo content for any reason, that choice of challenge isn't there. The idea is that challenge is a voluntary choice whether its solo, 5 man, raid, pvp. That also benefits the other side of the coin -- now playing solo, doing 5 mans, raiding, and pvp, are all voluntary choices (rather than the condition to play at the level of difficulty you want).

I like that part about Torghast. The thing about Torghast that I would like changed is to have our challenging solo content integrated into the world. I don't mean the powers. Just that, the least fun part of Torghast is that you are literally by yourself in an instance with nothing but baddies to kill... so it doesn't really feel like an MMORPG. Questing out in the world, seeing other people and maybe grouping up, maybe not; affecting the world and stuff is very important.

The challenge of different kinds of players needing different difficulties is its own topic. Ideally everyone would have a game that is tailored to be reasonably around their desired skill and investment level. One game doesn't need to appeal to everyone. WoW doesn't have to appeal to me; maybe another game will.

So let's say the game is tuned for players like me... I definitely do want times in my gameplay cycle where I'm chillin and exploring; talking to ppl in chat. That doesn't to be a specific type of content. There can be a more casual and more challenging form of every type of content, as long as they have the bandwidth to implement it. That's where it starts becoming tiring to try to appeal to everyone.

But it does feel quite awkward or downright unappealing when the type of content you like to do is gated by content you don't like to do. That's when people talk about these "mandatory chores" because it's not really fun gameplay for someone who rather raid but the reward system strongly encourages you do it anyways if you want to succeed at the part of the game you do like.

Low-key content is great... it should just lead to more and more fleshed out low-key content. Then when you are in the mood for low-key you do low-key. When you are in the mood for intense you do intense.

We can accomplish that in the way it always has been... things get progressively more challenging the deeper you get into them. Eventually you can't progress any further, so you go do other content until you get the power to do so. There can be ways that any casual player or casual-mood player can keep progressing towards their goal and gain power as long as they want, but if you are more skilled you can dive further with less gear.

Though then there is the rightful concern that really, the hard-core players are getting more content. And in the way I've described it, they are. That kind of game design is based on the idea of rewarding overcoming challenges, which I like. That's why my vote is there.

I also want to do world content. But problem with world content - it's shared between all players. It's exact reason, why it doesn't have difficulty setting, while it definitely needs one. And all players can't be satisfied at the same time. That's why with current design world content should be tuned for the lowest denominator. As it was in the past, when game was on it's peak. Because it would be accessible to all players and doing more challenging content would be voluntary choice. You want more challenge? You go to Mage Tower, Torghast, dungeons, raids, arenas, RBGs, etc. Current design suffers from "Giving even more content to players, who already have plenty of it, while taking it away from players, for whom it's only accessible content => losing players".

[Nymrohd]

Ya know I feel like this always gets forgotten about when people praise Legion.

Because it is not that accurate. WoD had the longest time on beta of any expansion. Much of post launch content is very much developed by the time of release. They did not have time to finish said content because a) the garrisons took vastly more time than they had expected to deliver something far less ambitious than was originally promised b) multiple original concepts were scrapped. Who knows how many hours were spent to develop early Gorgrond (the one you can see in the AU Mag'har recruitment scenario) only for the entire zone and its questlines to be scrapped because of the worries on Orc fatigue and replaced with a weird mashup and a very short questing experience that they tried to make up with their early world quest concept. Talador's story was also scrapped and redone (an entire arc lost at least on Horde side of a major Horde character to keep the orc presence at minimum, Liadrin's story cut, that absolutely nonsense transition in the scenario were we defeat Blackhand and the Iron Horde invasion only to find the zone occupied by the Legion). Crazy hours must have also gone to develop Karabor (not sure the horde capital had as much development time) when it was later scrapped either because they felt they could not get it to work? (which is now proven bullshit given how Boralus worked; keep the city massive and populated by concentrate player services in a small area) or wanted to prop Ashran. Unknown development time spent to fix Ashran even though that never worked.

WoD was just development disaster after development disaster. It wasn't abandoned. Its time in development just did not produce enough content.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Because it is not that accurate. WoD had the longest time on beta of any expansion. Much of post launch content is very much developed by the time of release. They did not have time to finish said content because a) the garrisons took vastly more time than they had expected to deliver something far less ambitious than was originally promised b) multiple original concepts were scrapped. Who knows how many hours were spent to develop early Gorgrond (the one you can see in the AU Mag'har recruitment scenario) only for the entire zone and its questlines to be scrapped because of the worries on Orc fatigue and replaced with a weird mashup and a very short questing experience that they tried to make up with their early world quest concept. Talador's story was also scrapped and redone (an entire arc lost at least on Horde side of a major Horde character to keep the orc presence at minimum, Liadrin's story cut, that absolutely nonsense transition in the scenario were we defeat Blackhand and the Iron Horde invasion only to find the zone occupied by the Legion). Crazy hours must have also gone to develop Karabor (not sure the horde capital had as much development time) when it was later scrapped either because they felt they could not get it to work? (which is now proven bullshit given how Boralus worked; keep the city massive and populated by concentrate player services in a small area) or wanted to prop Ashran. Unknown development time spent to fix Ashran even though that never worked.

WoD was just development disaster after development disaster. It wasn't abandoned. Its time in development just did not produce enough content.

That doesn't really contradict the idea that resources were shifted away as well. Lots of stuff was abandoned and we had HFC for a year. Knowing several people who worked on it, it was a production disaster and also a change of leadership and an ungodly amount of crunch to turn Legion into what it was with that content cadence schedule. They literally dont have the capacity to do that again lol

[WowIsDead64]

Because it is not that accurate. WoD had the longest time on beta of any expansion. Much of post launch content is very much developed by the time of release. They did not have time to finish said content because a) the garrisons took vastly more time than they had expected to deliver something far less ambitious than was originally promised b) multiple original concepts were scrapped. Who knows how many hours were spent to develop early Gorgrond (the one you can see in the AU Mag'har recruitment scenario) only for the entire zone and its questlines to be scrapped because of the worries on Orc fatigue and replaced with a weird mashup and a very short questing experience that they tried to make up with their early world quest concept. Talador's story was also scrapped and redone (an entire arc lost at least on Horde side of a major Horde character to keep the orc presence at minimum, Liadrin's story cut, that absolutely nonsense transition in the scenario were we defeat Blackhand and the Iron Horde invasion only to find the zone occupied by the Legion). Crazy hours must have also gone to develop Karabor (not sure the horde capital had as much development time) when it was later scrapped either because they felt they could not get it to work? (which is now proven bullshit given how Boralus worked; keep the city massive and populated by concentrate player services in a small area) or wanted to prop Ashran. Unknown development time spent to fix Ashran even though that never worked.

WoD was just development disaster after development disaster. It wasn't abandoned. Its time in development just did not produce enough content.

There are two rumors about it. 1) They tried to double team to switch to yearly development cycle. Because they thought, that if players were returning for xpack releases only, then more often releases would have been more profitable. So, they were developing content for one year only. I.e. there was no need to stretch it. They failed to achieve this goal. 2) Moving resources to Overwatch, because this project was more profitable. Because, you know, P2P shooter with F2P elements (paid heroes, skins, etc.) and almost 0 development cost is much more profitable thing, than game, that requires lots of development resources.

[Celement]

There are two rumors about it. 1) They tried to double team to switch to yearly development cycle. Because they thought, that if players were returning for xpack releases only, then more often releases would have been more profitable. So, they were developing content for one year only. I.e. there was no need to stretch it. They failed to achieve this goal. 2) Moving resources to Overwatch, because this project was more profitable. Because, you know, P2P shooter with F2P elements (paid heroes, skins, etc.) and almost 0 development cost is much more profitable thing, than game, that requires lots of development resources.

It is more likely just " brain drain" blizzard pays some of the lowest wages in the industry and has bleed talented developers for decades and replaced them with very low paid fresh hires. I think it just caught up to them.

[SaucyThighs]

I also want to do world content. But problem with world content - it's shared between all players. It's exact reason, why it doesn't have difficulty setting, while it definitely needs one. And all players can't be satisfied at the same time. That's why with current design world content should be tuned for the lowest denominator. As it was in the past, when game was on it's peak. Because it would be accessible to all players and doing more challenging content would be voluntary choice. You want more challenge? You go to Mage Tower, Torghast, dungeons, raids, arenas, RBGs, etc. Current design suffers from "Giving even more content to players, who already have plenty of it, while taking it away from players, for whom it's only accessible content => losing players".

Ya I hear ya. This is just a symptom of WoW trying to be everything to everyone... which ends up not pleasing anyone fully. I'm fine if WoW even goes full casual, that'll just open a space and desire for a new MMO that's for a different kind of player. Although other MMOs generally haven't been able to live up to that dream I do see the wheels turning.

[m4Zzo928]

Has anyone actually watched some alpha of world content? It's gated covenants in the most bland world questing. It's completely uninspired, filled with kill this mob fill the bar questing. Solo content is degrading.

[Nymrohd]

I have to say Torghast is probably the best way to do solo content when it comes to how the group works. Something repeatable that can be done in a flexible small group or solo.

Picture this. The Islands from island expeditions with the event progression those used to have. Queuable solo or in small group of flexible size like Torghast. No opposing team (that would be a separate mode). A Torghast like system to allow them to scale; Azerite would give you different empowerments as you explored the island, mob difficulty would scale upward with either penalties or additional and dangerous events added. Difficulty should be significant at the highest end; at least as hard as Horrific Visions were with full masks at cloak levels below 12 or Torghast was on release before the nerfs. For rewards you'd get currency from the islands that you could spend on rotating vendors depending on which islands are available for cosmetics (mogs, pets, mounts, toys) plus gear from the Vault that would at least reach between Normal and Heroic in ilvl at the highest difficulty.

[Zantos]

Your idea boils down to, they did it. In vanilla and even BC they had unique class quests for spells. Very in depth class questing that would allow you to get a mount on some classes, key abilities sometimes or even just ranking up your spell. Some were books and others were in depth quests. But it was done and people didn't enjoy how involved and difficult it could be. Some class quests required items from raids or other hard to do group content. Thus it even locked some people out.

Things I think could be repeated well, are class specific quest lines like the warlock green fire quest. That was custom tailored to warlocks and utilizing tons of abilities that may not have even been thought of as usable before. Hunter challenge pets in the Molten Front in cata was another great example. Hard to tame pets that required knowledge of the class to best time and utilize abilities to tame a unique pet. In both cases, these were not needed and were just cosmetic rewards. It was solo content that they could choose to do or ignore.

Mage tower on the other hand, is an example of how to do it badly. The rewards were something unique that could be ignored, but the challenges were really made to accommodate every spec of a type. So 1 boss for some ranged. 1 Boss for melee. This lead to very imbalanced levels of difficulty in defeating the bosses. Some took very precise knowledge of the class while others were able to be powered through with ease.

It can be done. It just needs to be done right.

[dragonflight10]

Asking for more solo content for game that required group play since 2004 yeps good idea

point 3 have you given it any thought ? you know any ideas implemented has to add something to the game more importantly not give players a hard time
now let me tell you whats wrong with your idea
+10 iron docks "no X ability no invite"

You not realizing that shows that you don't know jackshit about grouping or any content that matter xD

[WowIsDead64]

Ya I hear ya. This is just a symptom of WoW trying to be everything to everyone... which ends up not pleasing anyone fully. I'm fine if WoW even goes full casual, that'll just open a space and desire for a new MMO that's for a different kind of player. Although other MMOs generally haven't been able to live up to that dream I do see the wheels turning.

My idea - challenge should be choice. And it's impossible to please all, if Blizzard aren't going to make instanced outdoor content. Yeah, at this point we definitely need one. But, I guess, they aren't going to do it. Due to their "It's MMO - all of you should play the same compromise content" mentality. Current outdoor - is some silly mix of jump puzzles, stealth missions, world bosses (if "rare" isn't soloable - then it can't be called "rare" and even "elite", it's boss), etc. It's very hard to separate content you actually like from all this crap. I would even say, that it's impossible. And game becomes way too binary due to it. You either like it or you don't. It's no longer about finding something suitable for you among large amount of diverse content.

- - - Updated - - -

I have to say Torghast is probably the best way to do solo content when it comes to how the group works. Something repeatable that can be done in a flexible small group or solo.

Picture this. The Islands from island expeditions with the event progression those used to have. Queuable solo or in small group of flexible size like Torghast. No opposing team (that would be a separate mode). A Torghast like system to allow them to scale; Azerite would give you different empowerments as you explored the island, mob difficulty would scale upward with either penalties or additional and dangerous events added. Difficulty should be significant at the highest end; at least as hard as Horrific Visions were with full masks at cloak levels below 12 or Torghast was on release before the nerfs. For rewards you'd get currency from the islands that you could spend on rotating vendors depending on which islands are available for cosmetics (mogs, pets, mounts, toys) plus gear from the Vault that would at least reach between Normal and Heroic in ilvl at the highest difficulty.

Torghast and Expeditions - is content, I love and hate at the same time. From one POV it's quite chilling content, so I should like it. But from other POV I usually go there to get some specific rewards, such as mounts or mission table followers. So, I become angry, if it takes too long to obtain them.

Major problem with such content - it's not outdoor content. It's some separate mini-games. There are no quests there. There are no rewards. No character progression. Sometimes you don't even play your class, like in case of Torghast. We need instanced outdoor content.