[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[VMSmith]

Where is Caps rage? Tony? Natasha? Sam? Thor? Dr Strange? Peter Parker?

They all have the same super hero experience as Bruce. Why don't they have Rage issues?

Didn't Cap and Tony beat each other within an inch of their lives because of Tony's rage over his parents' murder?

Didn't Peter try to beat Norman Osborne to death out of rage over the murder of his Aunt May?

And besides this, every person has a different experience in life. Each of us has no idea whatsoever what demons any other person may be struggling with and cannot compare our experiences to theirs fairly. To do so is hubris, which is what Jen exemplifies in that scene.

[Endus]

I'd argue that Jen Walters also doesn't control her rage as well as she posits, either; especially given her many outbursts at her cousin Bruce and their fight at the close of the first episode.

Controlling your anger/emotions does not mean suppressing that anger/emotions. Expressing anger as Jen did is just healthy behaviour. People thinking it's a character flaw is kind of just proving Jen's point for her.

[ClassicPeon]

Her life experience of controlling her anger vs the life experience of someone who endured an abusive childhood and has dissociative identity disorder? You keep on getting the question wrong. Its no wonder you can't even provide the correct answer. She-Hulk (or Abomination) is what happens when a normal person gets Hulk powers. The Other Guy is what happens when a traumatized person gets Hulk powers.

And you're still lying about the scene. Which is not an Ad Hominem.

So what you are saying - and let me make sure i am getting it right - is that she is angry at him and has INFINITELY more experience controlling her rage then him - because HE was abused as a child?

Is that? Is that why she is yelling at him? Is that the hill you are dieing on here?

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We've explained that scene to you, and others, ad infinitum. You continue to lie about it. It's pretty clear there's no actual confusion, you just have an agenda. You're taking her words out of their immediate context, and you know it, you just don't care about truth.

She is not saying she has "more rage" than Bruce. That's why you keep bringing up Bruce's history. That's not what either of them is talking about, and your "interpretation" is so completely ignoring the context that it can't be an honest one.

If you're just gonna lie, again, then it's clear you've got a motive. This isn't an accident or misunderstanding, you've made a choice to push this false narrative, and nothing we say is gonna convince you to change your mind. So all we can honestly do is make sure nobody else falls for what you're pushing.

Its interesting how your go to expression whenever you have problems formulating arguments is to just call the other party a liar. its almost as if you are referencing the last time you called someone a liar as if that in itself is an argument?

I havent said - that she has said - that she has more rage? I'm trying to determine what it exactly is you guys think she means when she says she has infinitely more experience then him. If its not because she is a women then why? What is it exactly that makes her have infinitely more experience?

[Aucald]

Controlling your anger/emotions does not mean suppressing that anger/emotions. Expressing anger as Jen did is just healthy behaviour. People thinking it's a character flaw is kind of just proving Jen's point for her.

True enough, although expressing that behavior to the point of structural damage to an expensive lab and destroying Bruce's tiki bar isn't really healthy behavior in my view. Having immense strength doesn't require one to employ it in what is effectively a spat between family members. Hypocrisy is also rather normal behavior, for both Bruce and Jen.

[ClassicPeon]

Where is Caps rage? Tony? Natasha? Sam? Thor? Dr Strange? Peter Parker?

They all have the same super hero experience as Bruce. Why don't they have Rage issues?

I'm not sure what exactly this has to do with my post.

[Kathandira]

I'm not sure what exactly this has to do with my post.

"Her life experience as a well payed lawyer vs the life experience of a super hero who has lost almost countless friends in battle? I'm not talking about controling power here i am talking about her screaming that she has INFINITELY more experience controlling rage then him."

Those I listed have been pretty good at controlling their rage as superheroes. As @VMSmith pointed out, some of the listed heroes have lost control at one point or another, but they do not have "Rage Issues" like Bruce does.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So what you are saying - and let me make sure i am getting it right - is that she is angry at him and has INFINITELY more experience controlling her rage then him - because HE was abused as a child?

Is that? Is that why she is yelling at him? Is that the hill you are dieing on here?

Bruce not having experience controlling his anger due to his Childhood trauma is just a fact of his character and has been since we got a deeper drive into his childhood yeas ago.

He build the child like hulk to house his childlike anger always, it was made due to the mistreatment he faced but it lacks the higher understanding why it is treated the way it is so can only respond with rage. This is a personality Bruce has always had since he was a child and one he has always pushed his rage into instead of dealing with it him self all the gamma did was give it a physical form that could express it self.

[Polybius]

I'm trying to determine what it exactly is you guys think she means when she says she has infinitely more experience then him. If its not because she is a women then why?

Isn’t she a lawyer? They self-discipline for a living, not very different from Abomination or Hulk learning to conduct themselves. Bruce, at least the MCU version, is a bit awkward and sloppy; dude couldn’t hurt a fly out of Hulk form.

Unrelated to Walter’s experience but Hulk was more stable by the time she got the small dose of blood.

[ClassicPeon]

"Her life experience as a well payed lawyer vs the life experience of a super hero who has lost almost countless friends in battle? I'm not talking about controling power here i am talking about her screaming that she has INFINITELY more experience controlling rage then him."

Those I listed have been pretty good at controlling their rage as superheroes. As @VMSmith pointed out, some of the listed heroes have lost control at one point or another, but they do not have "Rage Issues" like Bruce does.

But thats not what i am talking about?

I am talking about her saying she has infinitely more experience then him. And i am asking what she means by that and where she has that from - because i am fairly certain she is talking about her being a women and him being a man - and so far noone has been able to come up with anything different then that.

[Jester Joe]

But thats not what i am talking about?

I am talking about her saying she has infinitely more experience then him. And i am asking what she means by that and where she has that from - because i am fairly certain she is talking about her being a women and him being a man - and so far noone has been able to come up with anything different then that.

Because why should anyone have to recap what was already said for you if you saw the show?

At no point does she say like, "I have breasts so I'm better at dealing with anger than you". She literally lists of every reason why she's learned to control her own rage, and unless you're going to try to deny that women have to deal with stuff like catcalling, it's absolutely being dishonest by trying to pretend that she makes it sound like it's a magical female ability.

Life experiences are different for everyone, and even moreso for different genders and races. It SHOULDN'T be that way, but it's the sad reality. Did you also complain when Black Panther discussed the hardships of Africans across the world, wherever they lived? Or when The Falcon and the Winter Soldier addressed the doubt Falcon had with being the next Captain America, and how race played into that?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But thats not what i am talking about?

I am talking about her saying she has infinitely more experience then him. And i am asking what she means by that and where she has that from - because i am fairly certain she is talking about her being a women and him being a man - and so far noone has been able to come up with anything different then that.

Multiple people have pointed to Bruce’s Truama and DiD as a different reason and as well as pointing out that Abomb doesn’t have the same issue even though he is also a man.

Here I’ll it again, this is a comic from 1962 about Bruce’s child hood and life before the hulk.



The hulk being a vassal for Bruce’s suppressed rage has been there since he was a child.

He was also there when Bruce was in school and getting picked on. and still there when Bruce was working for the army and had to deal with Ross.

At every point of Bruce’s life did he not experience dealing with his anger and instead pushed it onto the hulk.

[Endus]

Its interesting how your go to expression whenever you have problems formulating arguments is to just call the other party a liar. its almost as if you are referencing the last time you called someone a liar as if that in itself is an argument?

You're trying to make this about my character, rather than my accurate assessment of the failures of your position and argument, because you don't have a defense for the latter. That's what's going on here. I'm attacking your argument when I point out that a position you've stated is a lie. You're not even trying to justify your claims, you're just trying to make it about my personal character.

I havent said - that she has said - that she has more rage? I'm trying to determine what it exactly is you guys think she means when she says she has infinitely more experience then him. If its not because she is a women then why? What is it exactly that makes her have infinitely more experience?

I'd like you to finish watching the entire scene, so you get the full context, because Jen explains this fully in that scene. You don't want to, because it demonstrates how you're approaching this dishonestly.

The answers you want are right there, in that same scene. It's not everyone else's fault you refuse to acknowledge them. And I linked back to my prior explanations already. We've been over this repeatedly. You refuse to admit what was actually said in the show. You want to misrepresent the dialogue to make claims that misconstrue what was being said. Get back to me when you've actually watched and are willing to honestly discuss the whole scene, in context. I'm not repeating myself ad infinitum; if you didn't get it the first few times, it's because you're not willing to listen.

True enough, although expressing that behavior to the point of structural damage to an expensive lab and destroying Bruce's tiki bar isn't really healthy behavior in my view. Having immense strength doesn't require one to employ it in what is effectively a spat between family members. Hypocrisy is also rather normal behavior, for both Bruce and Jen.

The only damage to the lab that I recall was that early scene where Bruce first tried to force a change, with the spinning saw-wall of death.

I think breaking the saw-wall and ripping the door off was a reasonable and controlled response, given the situation.

The Tiki bar was collateral damage when they were wrassling. Have you never accidentally broken something while tousling around with family members? I've gone through a screen door and broken dishes screwing around with my cousins, and none of us are Hulks. Plus, they were both responsible for the Tiki bar, and neither of them was actually trying to damage it, they just rolled a bit too far and whoops. Doesn't take any anger at all, just inattention.

As for the last comment, there's a really fuckin' weird effort to treat everything a given character says as if they're presented as omniscient and perfect arbiters of reality who cannot possibly ever be wrong about anything nor engaging in any kind of exaggeration or hyperbole for effect, and it's weird as hell. I just generally don't engage with that shit. It's not worth my time.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

So what you are saying - and let me make sure i am getting it right - is that she is angry at him and has INFINITELY more experience controlling her rage then him - because HE was abused as a child?

Is that? Is that why she is yelling at him? Is that the hill you are dieing on here?

She has more experience CONTROLLING her angeer. He has more experience SUPPRESSING his anger.

Those are different things.

Bruce's big "secret" to controlling his transformations...was finally learning how to control his anger...in his late 30's.

[Ivanstone]

So what you are saying - and let me make sure i am getting it right - is that she is angry at him and has INFINITELY more experience controlling her rage then him - because HE was abused as a child?

Is that? Is that why she is yelling at him? Is that the hill you are dieing on here?

She is not angry at him. She is not yelling at him. These are lies. You’re lying. Again.

Bruce is a very repressed person. Yes, it’s because of child abuse. Jen is not. She is not a child abuse survivor and seems to have a loving family. She does not have anger management issues. She has at times been angry and stifled her anger. Blonski is likely very similar to Jen. This is why they’re in control when they Hulk out. Banner is not in control. It took him years to control his anger because his life is much, much harder than almost everyone’s. Even then his current state is not Bruce Banner or the Savage Hulk, it’s effectively a new personality that’s somewhere in between.

Your problem is you think Bruce is the voice of experience but he’s really only experienced at living his own life and his experiences are not transportable to anyone else. I wasn’t kidding when I said up thread that the best teacher for Jen would be Thor. He’s a person that also has vast superhuman strength but rather than having to control his rage he needed to learn humility instead. Which is a far better lesson for someone with newly gifted power.

[Aucald]

The only damage to the lab that I recall was that early scene where Bruce first tried to force a change, with the spinning saw-wall of death.

I think breaking the saw-wall and ripping the door off was a reasonable and controlled response, given the situation.

The Tiki bar was collateral damage when they were wrassling. Have you never accidentally broken something while tousling around with family members? I've gone through a screen door and broken dishes screwing around with my cousins, and none of us are Hulks. Plus, they were both responsible for the Tiki bar, and neither of them was actually trying to damage it, they just rolled a bit too far and whoops. Doesn't take any anger at all, just inattention.

As for the last comment, there's a really fuckin' weird effort to treat everything a given character says as if they're presented as omniscient and perfect arbiters of reality who cannot possibly ever be wrong about anything nor engaging in any kind of exaggeration or hyperbole for effect, and it's weird as hell. I just generally don't engage with that shit. It's not worth my time.

According to Bruce, she did several millions of dollars worth of damage, which seems a bit beyond the pale when she could've easily disabled the trap and simply knocked the door down without exploding it across the lab. Not to say she wasn't entitled to a bit of outrage in that scenario, but we're talking in the context of controlling one's rage and the enhanced power of being a Hulk. Her response was very human, but when you add Hulk powers into the mix, also exceedingly dangerous. The tiki bar incident is more of the same, both understandable, but also underscores what Bruce is trying to get across to her. Wrassling with your cousin as a human is a totally normal thing that probably hurts no one, doing so as a Hulk is something altogether else.

The crux of what I think the series, or at least its first season, is going to be about is Jen coming to grips with what it means to be a Hulk. Not just in the sense of controlling one's rage or anger, something she understandably excels at given her history and background, but also in the external stuff she has no control over. Being a Hulk as a public entity comes with circumstances and dangers she obviously can't know - which Bruce is trying to warn her about in his way (not very well, but that's beside the point). Jen has an irrational belief that she can return to her life's status quo after her transformation, and the show's many dramatic touches are slowly illustrating to her that that's not the case - not because she can't control herself, as was Bruce's initial issue, but because having powers will enmesh her in events she can't control and was previously unaware of.

Where Jen is coming from is understandable and relatable, of course, and part of what in my view makes her a great and believable character. She was just getting her career on track and was going to make a name for herself, and she wants to get back to that despite the massive change in her life stemming from becoming a Hulk. Whether or not that's possible despite her best efforts remains to be seen.

[Demasiados]

Because why should anyone have to recap what was already said for you if you saw the show?

At no point does she say like, "I have breasts so I'm better at dealing with anger than you". She literally lists of every reason why she's learned to control her own rage, and unless you're going to try to deny that women have to deal with stuff like catcalling, it's absolutely being dishonest by trying to pretend that she makes it sound like it's a magical female ability.

Took like 25 pages for someone to actually link the scene in question and as someone who hasnt seen the show i must confess that watching that scene it does seem like shes saying that she doesnt need to be lectured about controlling ones anger due to her experience as a woman.
Honestly could be chalked up to just some writer hijacking a character and inserting their power fantasy into the show.

Life experiences are different for everyone, and even moreso for different genders and races.

Life experiences are different for everyone, except when youre part of a demographic, then is shared experience?

It SHOULDN'T be that way, but it's the sad reality. Did you also complain when Black Panther discussed the hardships of Africans across the world, wherever they lived?

No, i was actually busy with the plot being "An african nation with tech so advance to take over the world isolating itself." And after Bilbo getting into Wakanda being called a coloniser because tchalas sis' ancestores refused to intervene when colonialism was going on.

Or when The Falcon and the Winter Soldier addressed the doubt Falcon had with being the next Captain America, and how race played into that?

Didnt watch, but how nice of Engame to suggest Falcon needed to be elevated above and erased in the process.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Took like 25 pages for someone to actually link the scene in question and as someone who hasnt seen the show i must confess that watching that scene it does seem like shes saying that she doesnt need to be lectured about controlling ones anger due to her experience as a woman.
Honestly could be chalked up to just some writer hijacking a character and inserting their power fantasy into the show.

There is no hijacking of a character the destination of Jen being better at control then Bruce and not needing to go through all the extra steps he does has been a core of her character since the 60’s.

[Jester Joe]

Took like 25 pages for someone to actually link the scene in question and as someone who hasnt seen the show i must confess that watching that scene it does seem like shes saying that she doesnt need to be lectured about controlling ones anger due to her experience as a woman.
Honestly could be chalked up to just some writer hijacking a character and inserting their power fantasy into the show.

Why the hell are you in a thread discussing a show you haven't watched then?

Life experiences are different for everyone, except when youre part of a demographic, then is shared experience?

No, i was actually busy with the plot being "An african nation with tech so advance to take over the world isolating itself." And after Bilbo getting into Wakanda being called a coloniser because tchalas sis' ancestores refused to intervene when colonialism was going on.

Didnt watch, but how nice of Engame to suggest Falcon needed to be elevated above and erased in the process.

That's nice, but I wasn't even talking to you anyway? The questions weren't directed to you.

[Demasiados]

There is no hijacking of a character the destination of Jen being better at control then Bruce and not needing to go through all the extra steps he does has been a core of her character since the 60’s.

I dont understand.
I have no issue with her not being as volatile as Bruce, well, because shes not.
I dont think thats the crux of the conversation.
People are just losing their mind about the way the show chose to establish it; a potentially divisive messaging.

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Why the hell are you in a thread discussing a show you haven't watched then?

I mean, i do like me some drama from time to time and given that theres more drama happening around the show than in the show itself why wouldnt i?

That's nice, but I wasn't even talking to you anyway? The questions weren't directed to you.

Im sorry, do you have a link to some consent form i should fill out first in order to properly engage in conversation with you.
Maybe you should update your banner so as to prevent further being inconvenienced by unsolicited responses.

[Raisei]

None of the examples you provided were sexist. That's the problem.

You cannot provide even a single example of any sexism. Every time you've tried, you've had to make shit up that is either not in the show at all or ignores elements of the show directly, both of which mean your example fails to hold up to scrutiny.

I have provided them, but again. Since you cannot refute them, you just claim they do not exist.

No, Maslaney's knocking it out of the park. We don't get to talk about that, because people like you keep storming in and making shit up to attack the show, dishonestly.

How? How in the world am I stopping you from gushing over the show? Is my critique so powerful that you cannot focus on the "amazing quality" of the show? Well... thank you, I guess.

You realize that hillariously you sound exactly like the show? "The bad men are stopping me from doing and saying what I truely want!"

In case it is not obvious: There is an ignore function, or you can manually ignore me, if my opinion is too much too handle. It's not like this exchange will ever convince you of anything (mainly because you ignore my arguments), so it isn't like it has any worth for either of us.

Also, for the record, I do like the actress. She is fine and with decent writing she would give a great performance. Unfortunately, the writing is horrendous.